galadiman: I don't think of it as "two IO's that do the same thing, only one is 30 times as expensive as the other." I think of it more like "Your second LoTG: Recharge costs 30 times as much as your first." If you only need one, it's really cheap. You need a second one? That's going to cost you.
Noyjitat: I've got an idea. It involves a new type of salvage, that you can turn into Alignment Merits!
...no?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
1. You're opinion of fun is not the same as everyone else's. Some people think the feeling of accomplishment is fun. Sure, you may think running in a race with a paraplegic is fun because you can win, but you're not really making an accomplishment. What you're suggesting is roughly on level with that.|
Originally Posted by Myrmydon
Why? Because, overall, it would make the game more fun.
|
2. You fail to understand how MMO's survive. If everyone gets the best material without working for it, more often then not, they will get bored with the game that much faster. But, if they had to work at it for a while, and had something they've invested time into, they're more likely to stick with it.
Now, you may not like that MMO's make things "harder" because they want you to keep paying money, but without making money, MMO's shut down. I would prefer this one stays open as long as possible. The way it's managed right now (in regards to the OP) works very well for me.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
It is not the difficulty, it is the tedium involved. That's the difference.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
1. You're opinion of fun is not the same as everyone else's. Some people think the feeling of accomplishment is fun. Sure, you may think running in a race with a paraplegic is fun because you can win, but you're not really making an accomplishment. What you're suggesting is roughly on level with that.
2. You fail to understand how MMO's survive. If everyone gets the best material without working for it, more often then not, they will get bored with the game that much faster. But, if they had to work at it for a while, and had something they've invested time into, they're more likely to stick with it. Now, you may not like that MMO's make things "harder" because they want you to keep paying money, but without making money, MMO's shut down. I would prefer this one stays open as long as possible. The way it's managed right now (in regards to the OP) works very well for me. |
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Intrinsic
Y'all realize there are more than 2 PvP IO's, correct? Maybe this is what the OP is talking about:
 Should I spend 15 million inf or 25 a-merits on that damage/recharge? Decisions, decisions... |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Myrmydon
Intrinsic gets it.
 |
@Roderick
Tedium?
Let's pretend for a moment that you cannot live a rich and full life without this, the most-coveted shiny in the game.
There are at least four ways to get the item in question*. You've picked one you don't like and you are refusing to change. How smart does that make you?
*PVP, make cash and buy it outright, earn AMs through tip missions, earn RMs and turn them into AMs. Another way of slicing the apple is "PVP, marketeer/farm, hoard AMs, make AM's and cash them in as you go." Either way.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
If you're trying to say that it's a systemic problem not limited to PvP IO's, then I agree with you. I think, however, that the discussion has moved off in a different direction.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Exactly! There should NEVER be such a glaring disparity between the rarity and the desirability of a recipe! If one recipe has a low market value, all recipes with the same merit cost should have the same market cost!
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Quote:
My point is that there always has been, and always will be, "crap rares". They will take too much work relative to their perceived value to obtain when you want one, and if you get one by accident while trying to get something else, you'll feel ripped off.|
Originally Posted by Intrinsic
If you're trying to say that it's a systemic problem not limited to PvP IO's, then I agree with you. I think, however, that the discussion has moved off in a different direction.
|
Before crap PVP IOs, there were crap Purples, like Fortunata Hypnosis.
Before crap Purples, there were crap Rares. (Remember getting Trap of the Hunter rares for TF complete rewards? I do!)
Before crap Rares, there were crap Hami-Os; the ones you couldn't GIVE away, let alone trade for the ones you want.
Even in issue 0 it existed. Back then, Training and Dual Origins went all the way to 50. The only way to get a guaranteed SO was to buy it (if you know where the stores are. They're not marked on your map), kill an AV for the guaranteed SO drop or take one as a TF completion reward. Imagine the frustration if you come away from a 5 hour TF with an Intangibility SO for your reward.
Rewards are the carrot on a stick to keep us playing. If we get all the awesome stuff right away, then a significant portion of the playerbase gets bored and leaves. That's a bad thing for a pay-to-play game.
The only way you're going to see the desirable recipes become "easier" to get is if a WoW-style drop table was implemented: Want a Ragnarok proc? Go defeat Ruladak. There'll be a 10% chance for it to drop each time you defeat him, and it will go to someone on the team - not necessarily you. And it will never drop off anything else.
I spent two to nine hours a day for just over THREE WEEKS doing nothing but running around in circles killing enemies that took over 10 minutes EACH to kill, because I wanted a certain skill recipe that came from nothing else and was Bind on Pickup, so I couldn't even buy it. Oh, and they were all deep grey, so I got NO XP.
I'll take a system that lets me play any content I want, and showers me with drops - some useful to me, some salable, and some others not worth picking up - and gives me the ability to purchase just about anything I want with relative ease, over the other option, any day.
@Roderick
Quote:
Actually, if they changed the random drop system into a merit system (or something similar to shard drops) and allow people to create whatever they like instead of getting trash drops, the idea of "crap rares" vanishes. This system would allow for people to play whatever they like (be it tips, TFs, story arcs, etc..) and still make use of from 10-50 if they wanted to.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
My point is that there always has been, and always will be, "crap rares". They will take too much work relative to their perceived value to obtain when you want one, and if you get one by accident while trying to get something else, you'll feel ripped off.
Before crap PVP IOs, there were crap Purples, like Fortunata Hypnosis. Before crap Purples, there were crap Rares. (Remember getting Trap of the Hunter rares for TF complete rewards? I do!) Before crap Rares, there were crap Hami-Os; the ones you couldn't GIVE away, let alone trade for the ones you want. Even in issue 0 it existed. Back then, Training and Dual Origins went all the way to 50. The only way to get a guaranteed SO was to buy it (if you know where the stores are. They're not marked on your map), kill an AV for the guaranteed SO drop or take one as a TF completion reward. Imagine the frustration if you come away from a 5 hour TF with an Intangibility SO for your reward. Rewards are the carrot on a stick to keep us playing. If we get all the awesome stuff right away, then a significant portion of the playerbase gets bored and leaves. That's a bad thing for a pay-to-play game. The only way you're going to see the desirable recipes become "easier" to get is if a WoW-style drop table was implemented: Want a Ragnarok proc? Go defeat Ruladak. There'll be a 10% chance for it to drop each time you defeat him, and it will go to someone on the team - not necessarily you. And it will never drop off anything else. I spent two to nine hours a day for just over THREE WEEKS doing nothing but running around in circles killing enemies that took over 10 minutes EACH to kill, because I wanted a certain skill recipe that came from nothing else and was Bind on Pickup, so I couldn't even buy it. Oh, and they were all deep grey, so I got NO XP. I'll take a system that lets me play any content I want, and showers me with drops - some useful to me, some salable, and some others not worth picking up - and gives me the ability to purchase just about anything I want with relative ease, over the other option, any day. |
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Quote:
The random world drop loot system has its advantages and disadvantages, I understand that, and for the most part I'm fine with that system. The problem is that the disadvantages of the old reward system are being carried over into newer and different merit systems. And "that's just the way we've always done it" is a terrible reason for perpetuating any system or process. As it stands now, the notion of spending 200 r-merits on your Ghost Widow's Embrace is about as appealing as spending 25 a-merits on my Javelin Volley. Don't you see room for improvement there?
|
Originally Posted by Roderick
My point is that there always has been, and always will be, "crap rares". They will take too much work relative to their perceived value to obtain when you want one, and if you get one by accident while trying to get something else, you'll feel ripped off.
Before crap PVP IOs, there were crap Purples, like Fortunata Hypnosis. Before crap Purples, there were crap Rares. (Remember getting Trap of the Hunter rares for TF complete rewards? I do!) Before crap Rares, there were crap Hami-Os; the ones you couldn't GIVE away, let alone trade for the ones you want. Even in issue 0 it existed. Back then, Training and Dual Origins went all the way to 50. The only way to get a guaranteed SO was to buy it (if you know where the stores are. They're not marked on your map), kill an AV for the guaranteed SO drop or take one as a TF completion reward. Imagine the frustration if you come away from a 5 hour TF with an Intangibility SO for your reward. Rewards are the carrot on a stick to keep us playing. If we get all the awesome stuff right away, then a significant portion of the playerbase gets bored and leaves. That's a bad thing for a pay-to-play game. The only way you're going to see the desirable recipes become "easier" to get is if a WoW-style drop table was implemented: Want a Ragnarok proc? Go defeat Ruladak. There'll be a 10% chance for it to drop each time you defeat him, and it will go to someone on the team - not necessarily you. And it will never drop off anything else. I spent two to nine hours a day for just over THREE WEEKS doing nothing but running around in circles killing enemies that took over 10 minutes EACH to kill, because I wanted a certain skill recipe that came from nothing else and was Bind on Pickup, so I couldn't even buy it. Oh, and they were all deep grey, so I got NO XP. I'll take a system that lets me play any content I want, and showers me with drops - some useful to me, some salable, and some others not worth picking up - and gives me the ability to purchase just about anything I want with relative ease, over the other option, any day. |
IF spending merits were the only way to get those recipes, then I'd agree with you. But it's not. We have the market.
The junk is going to be generated. Whether it's via normal play, farming, merit rolls, it really doesn't matter. A lot of copies are going to be deleted or vendored. But a lot will make it to the market.
Those 124 Ghost Widow triples in my screen shot up above? I bought them. All. I spent about 50 million total; a third of what one of those Luck of the Gamblers cost. Most of them were far below vendor price. And there's already more on the market.
I saw no problem with the system when all we got is what we were given by the drop tables (Well, except for the divided markets, but that's a different discussion). When they added AE and Tickets, then Reward Merits and now Alignment Merits, they've just given us more and more ways to get what we want, easier with each step.
When the devs flag PVP recipes as untradable, and prevent them from dropping in PVP, so that the only method of getting them is to spend a ridiculous amount of Merits, I'll agree with you. So long as they're available on the market for a price determined by a combination of their availability, their desirability, and the price people are willing to pay for them, I have no complaint.
Before A-Merits, I bought a Trap of the Hunter Pool C for 200 Merits, because none were put in the market at the level I wanted. Do I regret it? No. I got something I wanted for a price I was willing to pay for it. No IO is mandatory. If you want one, you have to figure out how much it costs and pay that, or go without. There is no flaw in this system.
@Roderick
The pvp drop rate system and weighting is poorly designed.
Also i agree with Intrinsic.
Quote:
I agree. |
Originally Posted by Intrinsic
The random world drop loot system has its advantages and disadvantages, I understand that, and for the most part I'm fine with that system. The problem is that the disadvantages of the old reward system are being carried over into newer and different merit systems. And "that's just the way we've always done it" is a terrible reason for perpetuating any system or process. As it stands now, the notion of spending 200 r-merits on your Ghost Widow's Embrace is about as appealing as spending 25 a-merits on my Javelin Volley. Don't you see room for improvement there?
|
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Quote:
You're sliding into the "game is work" group with this idea. What I want to propose is making the game something that doesn't (feel like it) require farming or any of those supposed abarrent behaviors. (I say "supposed" because, while the Devs swear up and down that they hate farming, they certainly go out of their way to make it something we all have to do if we want anything but SOs in this game, a fact that will be hammered home in I20...)
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Originally Posted by Roderick
IF spending merits were the only way to get those recipes, then I'd agree with you. But it's not. We have the market.
The junk is going to be generated. Whether it's via normal play, farming, merit rolls, it really doesn't matter. A lot of copies are going to be deleted or vendored. But a lot will make it to the market. Those 124 Ghost Widow triples in my screen shot up above? I bought them. All. I spent about 50 million total; a third of what one of those Luck of the Gamblers cost. Most of them were far below vendor price. And there's already more on the market. I saw no problem with the system when all we got is what we were given by the drop tables (Well, except for the divided markets, but that's a different discussion). When they added AE and Tickets, then Reward Merits and now Alignment Merits, they've just given us more and more ways to get what we want, easier with each step. When the devs flag PVP recipes as untradable, and prevent them from dropping in PVP, so that the only method of getting them is to spend a ridiculous amount of Merits, I'll agree with you. So long as they're available on the market for a price determined by a combination of their availability, their desirability, and the price people are willing to pay for them, I have no complaint. Before A-Merits, I bought a Trap of the Hunter Pool C for 200 Merits, because none were put in the market at the level I wanted. Do I regret it? No. I got something I wanted for a price I was willing to pay for it. No IO is mandatory. If you want one, you have to figure out how much it costs and pay that, or go without. There is no flaw in this system. |
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Quote:
Well, to be fair, they did only have roughly 16 people working on this game at the time. |
Originally Posted by Terror1
The pvp drop rate system and weighting is poorly designed.
Also i agree with Intrinsic. |
It is past time for a change, though, isn't it?
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Quote:
No, if they made the rare stuff easier to get, it would lead to people quitting the game sooner because they feel they are done. This is basic to all MMO's. There needs to always be more to do.
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Originally Posted by Myrmydon
Why? Because, overall, it would make the game more fun.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
You aren't talking about more different, you are talking about more of the same that only applies to MMOs where the object is to see who has the worst case of OCD. In this games case it may be all that is left with the competitive aspects always being marginalized.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
No, if they made the rare stuff easier to get, it would lead to people quitting the game sooner because they feel they are done. This is basic to all MMO's. There needs to always be more to do.
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Quote:
Werner gets it. |
Originally Posted by Werner
Yes, devs routinely mess things up. However, for something like how rare a particular drop should be, how much time it should take to earn, there's no right and wrong. There's only how often YOU want them to drop and how often Billy Joe Jim Bob wants them to drop. Endless treadmills are a staple of MMOs. If not for the very rarest of recipes, what do you want to endlessly run on the treadmill for? Or if you want everything to come easily, just play the 1-50 game. It comes pretty easily.
I have no problem with there being shinies in a game that are very, very time consuming to get, particularly if they are generally only marginally better than alternatives (and often not even that). I also don't want the devs following the market to decide how difficult things should be to get, such as in the case of the junk PvP recipies. The Steadfast Protection +3% is better than the Gladiator's Armor +3% because it also enhances the power. But I see no real problem with it being common as dirt and the Gladiator's Armor being ultra rare and influence-cap-busting expensive. Both things can comfortably exist in the same game. |
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Yes and no. The game is not "work". However, it is, and should be, challenging to get the best, and even the better, equipment in a game. And I'm not "sliding into" that group - I've always had this opinion of games.|
Originally Posted by Myrmydon
You're sliding into the "game is work" group with this idea.
|
Have you ever played a video game where your character starts out with top-tier equipment? Usually, you end up defeated by some overpowered enemy and stripped of the equipment after a few fights. Before this happens, you run around happily one-shotting entire groups of enemies, with no risk to yourself.
Where's the fun in that?
Have you ever played any Final Fantasy game? If you were just handed Excalibur, Masamune, Murasame, Ultima Weapon, Ultima, Genji Armor, or any of the other unique, high-powered equipment, without having to solve a puzzle, work your way through a dungeon, or defeat a boss creature, would there be as much satisfaction or enjoyment?
If you want to just walk in to a room and beat up a million bad guys, go play Gauntlet. If you want to advance and improve your character, be it through levels, equipment, or improving skills/abilities, that's when you choose to play an RPG.
CoH is an RPG. I want my character development and advancement, thanks.
@Roderick
Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
If you want to just walk in to a room and beat up a million bad guys, go play Gauntlet. If you want to advance and improve your character, be it through levels, equipment, or improving skills/abilities, that's when you choose to play an RPG.
CoH is an RPG. I want my character development and advancement, thanks. |
Though to be fair, I doubt very many people want to create a new character and immediately be purpled out. Maybe some PvPers (certainly not all), but that seems a legitimate issue there, because some want CoH to be more like a first person shooter with equal and near immediate access to the best equipment so that it is mere skill that determines the outcome. In the PvE game, though, I suspect almost everyone likes character advancement. The argument is more about how fast this character advancement should be. Some people like it fast, some medium, and some slow. I'm in the slow camp. But there's nothing strictly wrong with the fast camp, other than that they never seem to recognize that other camps are legitimate. Kind of drives me nuts. (Edit: Mind you, the fast camp may feel exactly the same way about the slow camp.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
You have it slightly off there. Rather than referring to "MMOs where the object is to see who has the worst case of OCD.", the point is that all MMO's have SOME OR MANY PLAYERS who are like that. They are a key part of the target audience and they spend plenty of money on the games.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You aren't talking about more different, you are talking about more of the same that only applies to MMOs where the object is to see who has the worst case of OCD.
|
Some MMO's target that audience more than others, but all MMO's have them.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
For me, I hate the perception I have of feeling like I have to play a certain enforced way (tip missions, market madness) to get a certain result rather than being able to play the game the way I like (teaming, exemplaring and running story arcs) to get the result. Will I still run tips to get Merits for IOs? Yes, because that is the best way (by my perception of things) to do what I want. Pity it has to be that way, but this is how it is today. Maybe if there's enough interest, it could change. |
Originally Posted by Werner
This.
Though to be fair, I doubt very many people want to create a new character and immediately be purpled out. Maybe some PvPers (certainly not all), but that seems a legitimate issue there, because some want CoH to be more like a first person shooter with equal and near immediate access to the best equipment so that it is mere skill that determines the outcome. In the PvE game, though, I suspect almost everyone likes character advancement. The argument is more about how fast this character advancement should be. Some people like it fast, some medium, and some slow. I'm in the slow camp. But there's nothing strictly wrong with the fast camp, other than that they never seem to recognize that other camps are legitimate. Kind of drives me nuts. (Edit: Mind you, the fast camp may feel exactly the same way about the slow camp.) |
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Quote:
<--- Does not use Purples (except one to-hit debuff proc in Boxing) and wants the Gladiator to switch back from Leaping to Fly (most efficient build setup at the moment requires a PvP IO, unfortunately, but I have flown on that character since I3 and can't stand any other mode of travel on it).|
Originally Posted by Roderick
Yes and no. The game is not "work". However, it is, and should be, challenging to get the best, and even the better, equipment in a game. And I'm not "sliding into" that group - I've always had this opinion of games.
Have you ever played a video game where your character starts out with top-tier equipment? Usually, you end up defeated by some overpowered enemy and stripped of the equipment after a few fights. Before this happens, you run around happily one-shotting entire groups of enemies, with no risk to yourself. Where's the fun in that? Have you ever played any Final Fantasy game? If you were just handed Excalibur, Masamune, Murasame, Ultima Weapon, Ultima, Genji Armor, or any of the other unique, high-powered equipment, without having to solve a puzzle, work your way through a dungeon, or defeat a boss creature, would there be as much satisfaction or enjoyment? If you want to just walk in to a room and beat up a million bad guys, go play Gauntlet. If you want to advance and improve your character, be it through levels, equipment, or improving skills/abilities, that's when you choose to play an RPG. CoH is an RPG. I want my character development and advancement, thanks. |
<--- Uses level 35 IO sets with the minimums for uniques to be able ot make the most use of set bonuses and powers while exemplared into the level 32+range (Taskforce and exemplar sweet spot)
The correction I would suggest does exactly that, give you development and advancement more fitting to the genre, to be honest.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Quote:
As an aside, I think Guild Wars handled this really well. When making a character, you could choose whether they were a pve or pvp character. Pve is normal, you go through the story, level up, get items, yada yada. You can also take your pve character to pvp zones.|
Originally Posted by Werner
[...]Maybe some PvPers (certainly not all), but that seems a legitimate issue there, because some want CoH to be more like a first person shooter with equal and near immediate access to the best equipment so that it is mere skill that determines the outcome. [...]
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Pvp characters, on the other hand, started off at the maximum level. You could give them all the best stuff (numbers wise, if you wanted cool looking stuff you had to unlock it) right off the bat. So people who just wanted to try out a new character could have a fully functional pvp character made and ready to go in like 5 minutes.
You could unlock all the skills in pvp or pve. Its a great system, imo. That said, GW does have much, much more integrated and infinitely better balanced pvp than CoH has ever had. That game was built from the ground up with pve and pvp in mind.
Still, if the devs ever wanted to give pvp an overhaul again, something like that would be a cool idea. Want to try a pvp Stalker? Roll a pvp Stalker, you can give him all the IOs you want (maybe have to unlock the shinier ones) but you can only play him in pvp zones.
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The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
I think that's a legitimate point, though limited by all the various ways we have now of "buying" items. You can earn and buy things with regular merits. You can convert regular merits to alignment merits and buy even shinier things with alignment merits. You can play the game any way you want and buy things with influence, since nearly all aspects of the game rain influence. You can play the game in certain ways to get the actual drops yourself. Some of these ways DO take significantly longer than other ways, though, so I can understand how you might feel like you're being forced to play a certain way.|
Originally Posted by Myrmydon
For me, I hate the perception I have of feeling like I have to play a certain enforced way (tip missions, market madness) to get a certain result rather than being able to play the game the way I like (teaming, exemplaring and running story arcs) to get the result.
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If it's any consolation, I feel the same way about incarnate levels and forced teaming. Well, it is forced in I19 if you want to advance, but I hear rumor you can do it solo in I20 - it just takes this side of forever. But hey, I just said I like slow advancement, and it looks like solo incarnate will be really, really slow, so maybe I should be happy. *chuckle*
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
If you don't like what something costs don't buy with merits.