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I think FT has the same 9' radius, and same 13.5s duration. Actually, Gauntlet's been broken enough times that I didn't even want to put in hard stats in my guide. Anyway in GIS's animating time, you can throw FT *and* IS on Mobs on opposite sides (well, a few extra tics of Arcanatime for the FT + IS combo) for yet more Gauntlet. Still, a good thing to point out.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Greater Ice Sword is *the* most skippable power in the entire powerset. The only things GIS does better than any other power in the powerset are:
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An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
I just updated my guide and added more stats to the GIS section. Seriously, look at some of the DPA numbers bet. GIS & the other heavy hitters. It's pathetic. Hell, there are plenty of T1 tanker attacks that beat GIS: Shadow Punch, Barrage, Scorch, Stone Fist, and Charged Brawl all have higher DPA numbers than GIS!
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Looking at your "heavy hitters" chart, it seems that Mace tankers have good reason to love Clobber! (I know I do.) That's a pretty impressive DPA for an attack that's available at level 20.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
I just updated my guide and added more stats to the GIS section. Seriously, look at some of the DPA numbers bet. GIS & the other heavy hitters. It's pathetic. Hell, there are plenty of handful of T1 tanker attacks that beat GIS: Shadow Punch, Barrage, Scorch, Stone Fist, and Charged Brawl all have higher DPA numbers than GIS!
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My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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I think you misunderstood me. I agree with you that Great Ice Sword sucks and I wonder why the dev has not made it better since it's a higher tier attack. Its only advantage is probably in slow/recharge debuff?|
Originally Posted by dave_p
Actually, it's a 35 power, but that's neither here nor there.
You summon VS and then it provides continual damage. Not the same thing as calculating an ST DPS based on ST attacks alone. Please show me a calc or a realistic scenario (you know, where you have a reasonable gapless attack chain w/o too many FF's in there) where GIS increases your overall DPS, or any other scenario where inserting a long animating, lower DPA attack helps your overall DPS. Or just explain why you think GIS will help anyone finish any task faster. |
I brought up VS because some people thought they had the worst high tier attack but I think Greater Ice Sword is way worse.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Reread your original post--yeah, I completely misread what you were trying to say. In fact, considering your usual reasoned posting habits, I was kinda confused as to your position. 
I took a look at the -rech & slow numbers too for GIS to see if there were *any* arguments to make for that power (kinda like w/the Gauntlet thing). Nope, tied for best, but not nearly enough to make it worthwhile. Just utterly useless, really. Still, I'd rather they up FF's #s instead of GIS since you're forced to take FF and not GIS, and w/Bruising, FF is sorta required to be added to your chain.
Having said that, I think Ice Melee is relatively balanced around the good AoE & excellent mitigation. I'd far prefer the Devs to look at like Energy Melee (once great, now merely good ST, middling mitigation, awful AoEs) first.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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A ideal example of fairness achieved would be where an Ice Melee would expect to go upto someone in PvP who has a better attack chain and -rechg them to the point that their attack chain is no better and all is fair.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I wonder why the dev has not made it better since it's a higher tier attack. Its only advantage is probably in slow/recharge debuff?
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Well with going ice melee combined with fire armor you'll more than likely only going with the six food groups of frozen fists, ice patch, build-up, taunt, freezing touch, and frozen aura. If you don't go pyre epic and instead want to stay AOE goodness by going darkside Mu, then substitute freezing touch for air superiority.
Of course it may vary a bit but with fire armors love why would it? Other armors need not apply. 
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Why would anyone not take Freezing Touch? Air superiority is a good attack, but once it's well slotted, FT can perma hold bosses while doing better damage and animates faster than AS. |
Originally Posted by BeastMan
Well with going ice melee combined with fire armor you'll more than likely only going with the six food groups of frozen fists, ice patch, build-up, taunt, freezing touch, and frozen aura. If you don't go pyre epic and instead want to stay AOE goodness by going darkside Mu, then substitute freezing touch for air superiority.
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A ST attack chain of FF>IS>FT>IS>Epic blast easily fits the span of build up. Typically when I'm in the middle of a spawn I'll focus on the boss with FF>FT>Gloom>FA>Frost. This, for me anyway, keeps decent damage up on the boss while making rather quick work of the minions/LTs.
Sorry for that minor ramble.
To the OP, I'll toss in another vote for skipping GIS. I used it while leveling my Icer, but after browsing the forums with suggestions of dropping it for IS, I did so and haven't regretted it. I also went without Ice Patch and Taunt, but my tank is Ice/Ice. After inherent fitness blessed us, I managed to get both back in my build.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
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I removed GIS and have not looked back. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
/seconding the dropping of GIS. It's DPA is pretty bad. Ice Sword is better all around. /Ice Melee isn't going to be about putting up large numbers every once in a while, it's about putting up smaller numbers all the time. Between Frozen Fists (for bruising), Ice Sword, and Frozen Touch, you've got your single-target attacks fairly set. Then frost and Frozen Aura for your AoE. GIS is skippable.
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BU + Frost + Frozen Aura + Burn + Frost in one BU bonus is nice.
I rarely ever use Ice Patch anymore.
And LOL at Ice melee in PVP... watching paint dry would be more fun.
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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Well for a tank with fire armor FT is optional. I agree its definitely worth holding bosses but for my ice/fire tank it didn't receive more than 3 slots because my attack chain is buildup+firey embrace+burn,ice patch, fireball,fire blast, rinse and repeat but not all in that order. On my other ice/fire I throw in frozen aura next to fireball.
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Originally Posted by Infini
Why would anyone not take Freezing Touch? Air superiority is a good attack, but once it's well slotted, FT can perma hold bosses while doing better damage and animates faster than AS.
A ST attack chain of FF>IS>FT>IS>Epic blast easily fits the span of build up. Typically when I'm in the middle of a spawn I'll focus on the boss with FF>FT>Gloom>FA>Frost. This, for me anyway, keeps decent damage up on the boss while making rather quick work of the minions/LTs. Sorry for that minor ramble. To the OP, I'll toss in another vote for skipping GIS. I used it while leveling my Icer, but after browsing the forums with suggestions of dropping it for IS, I did so and haven't regretted it. I also went without Ice Patch and Taunt, but my tank is Ice/Ice. After inherent fitness blessed us, I managed to get both back in my build. |
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Fixed, Emphasis mine, you are underestimating the amount of damage that FT does, and on teams the things that live the longest and tend to the most damage are Boss rank and higher mobs. It helps to have a non-AoE attack chain when dealing with them, more damage and more endurance efficient.
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Originally Posted by BeastMan
Well for a tank with fire armor FT is optional. I agree its definitely worth it for killing bosses but for my ice/fire tank it didn't receive more than 3 slots because my attack chain is buildup+firey embrace+burn,ice patch, fireball,fire blast, rinse and repeat but not all in that order. On my other ice/fire I throw in frozen aura next to fireball.
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"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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My rebuttle to the greatness of FT; if on a team then and a "fire armor" as your primary I won't have time to unleash FT because the mobs "including" bosses are dead. I've ambush farmed with my fire/ice tank and never really have a need for it. The attack chain I use is rdy to rinse and repeat to bother with other attacks. I in no way am saying FT can't be placed in a build its just not of use for my farming tanks needs. Blessed be the person to build their ice melee any way they want but the question I ask is why bother pairing it up with any other armor? I'm curious, unless for concept reasons what good is the set without fire armor?
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Fixed, Emphasis mine, you are underestimating the amount of damage that FT does, and on teams the things that live the longest and tend to the most damage are Boss rank and higher mobs. It helps to have a non-AoE attack chain when dealing with them, more damage and more endurance efficient.
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Um, good AoE damage with a useful secondary effect + mitigration from ice patch and mez, along with a rarely resisted damage type? (the best powers in the set are pure ice damage)|
Originally Posted by BeastMan
My rebuttle to the greatness of FT; if on a team then and a "fire armor" as your primary I won't have time to unleash FT because the mobs "including" bosses are dead. I've ambush farmed with my fire/ice tank and never really have a need for it. The attack chain I use is rdy to rinse and repeat to bother with other attacks. I in no way am saying FT can't be placed in a build its just not of use for my farming tanks needs. Blessed be the person to build their ice melee any way they want but the question I ask is why bother pairing it up with any other armor? I'm curious, unless for concept reasons what good is the set without fire armor?
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I dont know about you, unless im making a farming build (and I dont see the OP or anyone else talking about farming with this build, and there are better farming builds for tankers), I build for difficult content, so that means bosses and such that don't die if you sneeze at them.
Also at SOME point in the game you are going to be fighting EBs and such and it would be nice to have a non-aoe attack chain to deal with these so you don't take a year and a half while tanking your endurance.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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That makes no sense. FT has a 1s attack animation. If you're on this uber team, you're mostly worried about not wasting your time on long animating attacks, so why wouldn't you want a high DPA, fast attack that just happens to hold? Air Sup has a *longer* animation than FT. Are you thinking of a different attack? Or are you just saying the recharge is too slow?|
Originally Posted by BeastMan
My rebuttle to the greatness of FT; if on a team then and a "fire armor" as your primary I won't have time to unleash FT because the mobs "including" bosses are dead. I've ambush farmed with my fire/ice tank and never really have a need for it. The attack chain I use is rdy to rinse and repeat to bother with other attacks. I in no way am saying FT can't be placed in a build its just not of use for my farming tanks needs. Blessed be the person to build their ice melee any way they want but the question I ask is why bother pairing it up with any other armor? I'm curious, unless for concept reasons what good is the set without fire armor?
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As for why bother w/Ice Melee w/other than Fiery Aura, first off why Fiery Aura? Anything that FA does for IM, it does for everything else. Same as SD. A more logical question might be why IM period? Your FA/IM combo made more sense when Burn still had its fear component. As to why IM, regardless of the primary, it has the 4th best AoE damage in the tanker sets and arguably the best mitigation.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Umm OP stated this: |
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Um, good AoE damage with a useful secondary effect + mitigration from ice patch and mez, along with a rarely resisted damage type? (the best powers in the set are pure ice damage)
I dont know about you, unless im making a farming build (and I dont see the OP or anyone else talking about farming with this build, and there are better farming builds for tankers), I build for difficult content, so that means bosses and such that don't die if you sneeze at them. Also at SOME point in the game you are going to be fighting EBs and such and it would be nice to have a non-aoe attack chain to deal with these so you don't take a year and a half while tanking your endurance. |
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Fire Armor. Stemmed from a sudden urge to Ice Patch Burn.
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All bosses die (including AV's) when you sneeze on them, you just have the right team makeup.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
That makes no sense. FT has a 1s attack animation. If you're on this uber team, you're mostly worried about not wasting your time on long animating attacks, so why wouldn't you want a high DPA, fast attack that just happens to hold? Air Sup has a *longer* animation than FT. Are you thinking of a different attack? Or are you just saying the recharge is too slow?
As for why bother w/Ice Melee w/other than Fiery Aura, first off why Fiery Aura? Anything that FA does for IM, it does for everything else. Same as SD. A more logical question might be why IM period? Your FA/IM combo made more sense when Burn still had its fear component. As to why IM, regardless of the primary, it has the 4th best AoE damage in the tanker sets and arguably the best mitigation. |
I'm assuming you don't have a fire/ice tank? Burn is just perfect right now. Why would you want a fear component? I want to take out my opponents not make them run away. As for air superiority it was more of a less end, rechrg, and a knocking down opponent option. More of the less end if anything. I don't have it on my ice melee toons its just another option if they didn't want FT.
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You misread what I wrote. To edify, this is what I said:|
Originally Posted by BeastMan
I made my FA/IM tank back in the early days of farming and since coming back to COH after a 2 yr hiatus, I've found a use for him again.
I'm assuming you don't have a fire/ice tank? Burn is just perfect right now. Why would you want a fear component? I want to take out my opponents not make them run away. As for air superiority it was more of a less end, rechrg, and a knocking down opponent option. More of the less end if anything. I don't have it on my ice melee toons its just another option if they didn't want FT. |
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| Your FA/IM combo made more sense when Burn still had its fear component. |
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| Blessed be the person to build their ice melee any way they want but the question I ask is why bother pairing it up with any other armor? I'm curious, unless for concept reasons what good is the set without fire armor? |
As for FT, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't take the highest DPA attack of a set that's sadly lacking in DPA attacks, but hey, whatever floats your boat. I'm just mainly curious about your odd statement above, about the whole Fire/Ice combo, which is a good combo and all, just not the only Ice Melee combo that makes sense.
(Except you claim you *are* taking FT, not AS, on your Fire/Ice, so really, I'm seeing zero point to your entire line of arguments.
Are you just being contrarian for the hell of it?)
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Are you actually using Ice Patch in the middle of your attack chain while FE/BU is up? Ice patch has an almost 4 sec animation, pretty much cutting your buffed time in half. Seems like a waste when you can lay a patch, THEN FE+BU>burn>fireball>frozen aura>frost>whatever.|
Originally Posted by BeastMan
Well for a tank with fire armor FT is optional. I agree its definitely worth holding bosses but for my ice/fire tank it didn't receive more than 3 slots because my attack chain is buildup+firey embrace+burn,ice patch, fireball,fire blast, rinse and repeat but not all in that order. On my other ice/fire I throw in frozen aura next to fireball.
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As far as /IM not being good for any other primary, FA/ isn't the best, IMO. I would say SD/ is better suited due to its taunt aura buffing damage. If you're farming, you get a constant saturation plus BU and with a softcapped build, you don't even need Ice Patch. I've never gotten really far playing FA, but I'd have to guess that, unless you build for softcapped s/l defense, you'd be relying on ice patch a lot.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
Also, SD/, Invuln/, and Willpower/ can all make use of Frozen Aura as a sleep, gaining buffs from the minions that are slept while taking zero damage from them.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I was looking at the description of Ice Melee powers on the screen where you create a new character, and for Frozen Aura, it says this:
Frozen Aura
Your mastery of cold enables you to dramatically lower the temperature immediately around you. When you perform a Frozen Aura, nearby foes will be frozen within a fragile casing of ice and suffer a moderate amount of cold damage. These frozen foes will break free if attacked. Frozen Aura deals moderate damage. Damage: Moderate Recharge: Slow
From what I could see, I would guess that the amount of damage Frozen Aura does is, uh, moderate? 
Ya think they said it enough times?
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
If they ever revamp GIS such that it provides good DPA, the respec lobe of my brain is gonna cry.
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Mostly Pinnacle, with scattered alts on Liberty, Freedom, and Justice.
I had a great time playing with you!
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It is the same damage as Foot Stomp...
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I was looking at the description of Ice Melee powers on the screen where you create a new character, and for Frozen Aura, it says this:
Frozen Aura Your mastery of cold enables you to dramatically lower the temperature immediately around you. When you perform a Frozen Aura, nearby foes will be frozen within a fragile casing of ice and suffer a moderate amount of cold damage. These frozen foes will break free if attacked. Frozen Aura deals moderate damage. Damage: Moderate Recharge: Slow From what I could see, I would guess that the amount of damage Frozen Aura does is, uh, moderate? |
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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Yup yup!|
Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
It is the same damage as Foot Stomp...
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And I personally find Frost the most skippable. Stupid long cast time and short range. Damage is otherwise fine though. >.>
=. .=
I have not seen you post in a very long time.
Well, I've not had an active account for a year and a half so it's understandable not seeing me post. =^.^=b
I am enjoying all the additions to the game and finding that Ice/Ice tanks haven't changed that much since I left; Fitness becoming inherent aside.
=. .=
Is this a concept thing? No toggles?
Greater Ice Sword is *the* most skippable power in the entire powerset. The only things GIS does better than any other power in the powerset are:
- Largest Gauntlet Radius (9 ft)
Everything else that GIS does is done better by a different power in the powerset. Yes, GIS is the "stinker" power in Ice Melee.