PVP zones -
It's not the "lack of hero vs villain conflict" that has PVP zones so empty. It's:
- The massive changes from Issue 13 completely changing how characters work (and really gutting the PVP community size,)
- The fact the game launched without PVP, and there are a fair number of people who don't want to deal with PVP in any way, shape or form,
- The lack of a "reason" to PVP. Which somewhat goes in with your "hero vs villain conflict," but when you PVP, you... PVP. You're not attacking or defending a goal, for instance.
As far as numbers, pre-I13, there wasn't an *overall* imbalance (PVP wise) of heroes or villains. At some times, or some days? Sure. But we'd also have people go and switch (voluntarily) when that got to be the case.
Part of the feel, villain-wise, is also that you're less your own person and more either being "tricked" into doing things, or someone's lacky, or not really in your own control (see the whole 'destined one' schtik.) You don't do much that's actually *villainous.* Even the "evil" arcs you end up being more of a thug than a villain. We've only recently had the "moral choice" tech enter into the game which could, possibly, let you shape that to how villainous (or thuglike) you want to be.
As for doing damage... no. You're sharing the world with many other people, and being prevented from beign able to *finish* a misison because of something you can't control isn't fun, it's irritating. Frustrating, even. I can say that from experience - Aion did something very similar in the Abyss (their main PVP area, PVPVE.) You had missions to (for instance) defeat X people of rank Y. OK, those aren't bad, you can do that as you do other things. But then there were missions such as "Save the prisoners," who wouldn't EXIST if your side owned certain areas of the zone - which happened for a few *months* when I was playing (pre-server merge.) When I finally got to do that mission, it would be what we'd call "deeply grey." Or "Go talk to person X," who - if your side DIDN'T own that area - wouldn't exist.
As far as "PVP anywhere" or "Have one side invade the other's zones," no. Just no. PVP has never been popular here, and about the only reason it's (somewhat) tolerated is that it's restricted to the arena and a few zones. Set it so that a Stalker (for instance) can infiltrate Independence Port and kill someone when they're trying to deal with a bunch of Ink Men - and you know full well they wouldn't be going after the Scrappers and Tanks, but the Defenders, Controllers and the like - and you'll see Paragon Studios surrounded by a mob with torches and pitchforks. (Or just a noticable drop in subs.) That, of course, ignores the issues that powers in PVP behave differently than in PVE and all the mess THAT would create.
The problem for me is largely the writing. Redside missions almost *always* portray you as either a hired thug, or as a lackey to someone who makes the villains from Saturday Morning Cartoons look sensible by comparison. There's really not many missions that offer any other option. *None* of my villains are mustache-twirlers who would pour battery acid on kittens just to prove how "EVIL" they are. Maybe some people do want to play as fruitcakes who plot to destroy the world and kill everyone. I don't, because to me, that's the same as saying "villain equals stupid."
To be honest, the Tips missions don't really help, since the writing is often even *more* cliched than for the older missions. AND the mission is written in a way that removes *any* sense of choice. You're there to beat down Flambeaux just for the sake of proving how evil you are. Not because she's a nitwit, or because she's managed to inconvenience you, but solely to prove that you're more evil than she is. Frankly, I ignore the Tips missions entirely now on most of my characters, because NONE of the choices appeal to me as they are written.
As for PVP... I have nothing really to say about it. I personally hate PVP, and refuse to have anything to do with it. One of the reasons I've mostly ignored many of the newer, shinier MMOs is the apparent assumption that even in the ones with PVE servers, "nearly all" players are going to PVP at least a little. (For example, unskippable and un-droppable quests to "introduce" you to PVP, or putting items needed for PVE quests in areas that operate under PVP rules.) *Edit* Just to be entirely clear: a game that allows other players to attack me, EVER, for any reason, is one that I refuse to play. As Memphis Bill stated above, I tolerate the PVP in this game because it's entirely locked off in areas where I never need to go.
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You're confusing two things that are only marginally related. The 'hero vs villain' mindset/background/whatever is not the problem with PvP. The PvP MECHANICS (how PvP actually works) is the problem with PvP. It has nothing to do with hero vs villain conflict.|
Originally Posted by Cyberium_neo
In fact, I see a decline in terms of Heroes v.s. Villains. One of the most obvious cue on that withered conflict is within the PvP zones. They're all but deserted at the moment.
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So, figure out whether you have an issue with the degree of hero/villain conflict in the WRITING and STORIES, or if you want to talk about PvP. The two subjects really aren't related.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
A well written villain [that isn't a sociopath or psychopath] will appear grey is the bulk of the problem.
World pvp is just simply not really going to float well in this game, and frankly, the engine isn't well suited to handle it.
Let's Dance!
I think a hero vs villain mindset would be difficult to instill in a game where many (most?) play both sides. Far easier to create that kind of tribal loyalty in MMOs where people generally stick to one side, and one or two characters.
Sigh. I still remember the vague sense of disapointment the first time I did a Mayhem mission and my team of villains zoned into an instanced version of Atlas Park. I genuinely thought we were going to the real zone, which would have been awesome...
...except it wouldn't. I was new to MMOs back then, and didn't realise that if it had been the real AP our team of level 7 villains would likely have been instantly ganked by a passing 50, because that's how world PVP tends to work in practise, and why it'll never work in this game.
While there was a vocal "I want to play a villain" player base, I don't know if it was ever really that BIG of a group.
I still get the feeling, over all, that people would rather play the hero versus the playing the villain. Not from a, are the story arcs better or not stand point, just an over all stand point.
As for the story arcs, redside feels more like a "you're the lackey" type (imo anyways), and doesn't get much better in the level 50 mark in that feeling (again imo).
I think part of this, is with how things works from an MMO stand point. Going to contacts works for heroes. Going to other people for a villain, seems like a "I cant do my own evil".
PvP, I usually found when one side got to hammered in numbers, people would switch sides if they had toons on the otherside (I did it on occaission myself...that said, with i13, I dont consider any of my characters pvp viable anymore).
And with the new PvP (or current, its not new per se), I don't like how it plays. :/ Mez shields being dropped, having to retoggle my toggles, not because I got mezzed by so many mezz's but because one person hit me twice.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The villain/rogue tip missions entirely miss the point, and only serve to paint villains as nihilistic psychopaths. The difference between a villain a rogue isn't just the what, it's the how. A rogue will hold a gun to your head and demand you hand over your wallet. A villain will shoot you and take your wallet. A rogue wants your wallet, but understands that taking it is wrong. A villain feels entitled to your wallet. You don't matter to a villain at all, you are only significant as long as you're standing in the way of what they want. The point they miss is the "what you want" part. As a great hero once said, "You can't destroy everything! Where would you sit?"|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
To be honest, the Tips missions don't really help, since the writing is often even *more* cliched than for the older missions. AND the mission is written in a way that removes *any* sense of choice. You're there to beat down Flambeaux just for the sake of proving how evil you are. Not because she's a nitwit, or because she's managed to inconvenience you, but solely to prove that you're more evil than she is. Frankly, I ignore the Tips missions entirely now on most of my characters, because NONE of the choices appeal to me as they are written.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
As for the story arcs, redside feels more like a "you're the lackey" type (imo anyways), and doesn't get much better in the level 50 mark in that feeling (again imo).
I think part of this, is with how things works from an MMO stand point. Going to contacts works for heroes. Going to other people for a villain, seems like a "I cant do my own evil". |
As for direct hero vs. villain conflict, the closest we come outside PvP zones is with the Mayhem/Safeguards. Remember, the Paragon Heroes/Rogue Isles Villains are supposed to be NPC representations of player characters. There's also that villain respec team in the thorn tree mission of the STF, the guys in the Atlas Park mission of the Barracuda and Khan TFs, and the Rogues Gallery in the tip missions, who switch sides just like we do. Parallel content like this does allow for a simulation of hero/villain conflict, without necessarily introducing PvP.
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Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
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This is one of the biggest problems of Morality in Videogames. We are not presented with morality based on our own ideas (which could be difficult, so understandable) or even by a majority, but we are defined by morality as Developers view it.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
The villain/rogue tip missions entirely miss the point, and only serve to paint villains as nihilistic psychopaths.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I think one of the problems is the sheer mechanics of creating a villainous mastermind arc, given the nature of the mission structure. Heroes in comics - as exemplified by Superman etc tend to react to the plots of the villains, giving plotlines that are a good fit for a mission arc where the villain does x so the hero has to respond. But writing that from the villain point of view - the person who is supposed to be thinking up the ideas - is a whole lot harder.
I still think CoV is better than CoH in gameplay and mission structure, But few of my villains feel really evil - more often self centred or non-conformist.
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This is part of the reason for the feeling of lackey-ism villainside... plus, villains tend to have much more variable goals, so it's hard to make arcs that work for every concept. Most heroes want, in one form or another, to save the world. Some villains want to rule the world. Some villains want to destroy the world. Some villains just want power, some villains just want to kill a specific hero, some villains want to kill all mutants, some villains want to destroy Paragon, some villains are just trying to save the world through any means necessary, some villains just like to see stuff explode, some villains want to release extradimensional horrors from their prison, and some villains just want money. Even if you narrow it down to the few most common ones, that's still a lot more variability to account for than heroes have.
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Originally Posted by madsness
I think one of the problems is the sheer mechanics of creating a villainous mastermind arc, given the nature of the mission structure. Heroes in comics - as exemplified by Superman etc tend to react to the plots of the villains, giving plotlines that are a good fit for a mission arc where the villain does x so the hero has to respond. But writing that from the villain point of view - the person who is supposed to be thinking up the ideas - is a whole lot harder.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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In an ideal game world, you'd have a little bit of all of the above, so you could pick and choose which you wanted to do. However, most villain content just gives you a pat on the head for being a good little evil minion. The tip missions swing entirely the other way. It's like they heard all the criticism that redside didn't make you feel evil enough and filled the missions with evil for its own sake.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
This is part of the reason for the feeling of lackey-ism villainside... plus, villains tend to have much more variable goals, so it's hard to make arcs that work for every concept. Most heroes want, in one form or another, to save the world. Some villains want to rule the world. Some villains want to destroy the world. Some villains just want power, some villains just want to kill a specific hero, some villains want to kill all mutants, some villains want to destroy Paragon, some villains are just trying to save the world through any means necessary, some villains just like to see stuff explode, some villains want to release extradimensional horrors from their prison, and some villains just want money. Even if you narrow it down to the few most common ones, that's still a lot more variability to account for than heroes have.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
City of Villains was a failed experiment. They were hoping to turn CoX into a realm PvP game, and it never gelled together.
Don't get me wrong; the content redside is great. But the entire idea of being a villain, and of PvP with heroes, works against the thrust of the rest of the game that is trying to give you the illusion that your character is a unique and special snowflake around which the universe revolves.
CoV and PvP both clashed with the core concept of CoH. I'm glad that the devs have pretty much given them up for lost.
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I personally feel that the Devs missed an opportunity with Safeguard and Mayhem missions to give heroes and villains that type of variety. Give heroes missions where that get clues and special items to stop an NPC villain plot, where the villain get to choose a path for form a plot and along the way stop an an NPC hero along the way.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
In an ideal game world, you'd have a little bit of all of the above, so you could pick and choose which you wanted to do. However, most villain content just gives you a pat on the head for being a good little evil minion. The tip missions swing entirely the other way. It's like they heard all the criticism that redside didn't make you feel evil enough and filled the missions with evil for its own sake.
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Because this isn't "City of Antisocial Personalities".|
Originally Posted by Cyberium_neo
Why can't I rob and kill normal citizens on the street
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This kind of complaint sounds like you want a game that's rated "M"/"18+". CoX is "T"/"16+".
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Surely the favor or your master is the best kind of reward a lackey can get? |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
However, most villain content just gives you a pat on the head for being a good little evil minion.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Damn those gritty 90's super hero comics, where bad guys did just that!|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Because this isn't "City of Antisocial Personalities".
This kind of complaint sounds like you want a game that's rated "M"/"18+". CoX is "T"/"16+". |
If it kept it to the same graphics as it does with other enemies, I don't see why it would increase the rating of the game (not that the rating means much anyways).
Not like it would be any XP at all either. People would have their fun and really get nothing out of it.
However this is easy to replicate in game. Get to a high level, and start mugging Hellions! It's really no different than going after pedestrians.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I read this and... yep... mind went back to Aion, where:|
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
I think a hero vs villain mindset would be difficult to instill in a game where many (most?) play both sides. Far easier to create that kind of tribal loyalty in MMOs where people generally stick to one side, and one or two characters.
Sigh. I still remember the vague sense of disapointment the first time I did a Mayhem mission and my team of villains zoned into an instanced version of Atlas Park. I genuinely thought we were going to the real zone, which would have been awesome... ...except it wouldn't. I was new to MMOs back then, and didn't realise that if it had been the real AP our team of level 7 villains would likely have been instantly ganked by a passing 50, because that's how world PVP tends to work in practise, and why it'll never work in this game. |
- For any server you start on, you MUST stay on one side (Elyos or Asmodean) and
- yep, you rift in. And the other side is notified the rifts are up. So your level 20 being sent on their first spy mission (which is really quite fun) runs into PVP-built high levels who WILL have found the rift sites and camped them within minutes, and you end up very dead. I still have an Assassin over there with the first Rift mission, if I ever pick up the game again.
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Odd, even during the nadir of proliferating pouches 'n' pistols in that era, I don't recall Lex Luthor ever sticking up old ladies in order to finance his death rays or the Kingpin personally expanding his criminal enterprise into purse-snatching. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Damn those gritty 90's super hero comics, where bad guys did just that!
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Surely by the time players have broken out of the Zig in CoV, they've graduated above the rank of street mugger. Besides, CoH favors a more encompassing view of heroes - Gold, Silver, Bronze, and whatever-metal-we're-currently-in Ages.
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If it kept it to the same graphics as it does with other enemies, I don't see why it would increase the rating of the game (not that the rating means much anyways). Not like it would be any XP at all either. People would have their fun and really get nothing out of it. |
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I was thinking more along the lines of Image comics (Spawn comes to mind). Not DC or Marvel.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Odd, even during the nadir of proliferating pouches 'n' pistols in that era, I don't recall Lex Luthor ever sticking up old ladies in order to finance his death rays or the Kingpin personally expanding his criminal enterprise into purse-snatching.
Surely by the time players have broken out of the Zig in CoV, they've graduated above the rank of street mugger. Besides, CoH favors a more encompassing view of heroes - Gold, Silver, Bronze, and whatever-metal-we're-currently-in Ages. What a peculiar definition of "fun". Moreover, when a certain recent game allowed players to attack civillians, it generated some ... controversy. |
Whether it's fun or not, is really up to the player. I prefere to play heroes, and even when I play redside, I tend to fashion (in my head not by going by the story arcs) that my character is a hero.
I also gave a way for the one poster to do basically what they wanted to do, as it'd be the same thing.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
To the OP: I like your first Strange Idea. Something like Arena PvP, but with objectives. Also a little like a simplified Base Raid. Would take work to implement, but could be fun.
As for a general comment, some of what you express is a thing CoX seems to be actively avoiding as a core value, afai can tell:
Villians can be d***s to Villains or Heroes,
But Players should never be d***s to Players.
They seem to be striving for "Mustache-twirling villains," not the "RL kind of villains" that do the kinds of things that make CNN Breaking News.**
And I am Very Thankful for that - last thing I want to hear is someone got an unconscionable idea from CoX, and the evening news gave CoX free "PR". That's heartburn none of us ever need to experience.
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** - I say this, knowing that some of the eviller CoV content, and more of the Praetorian content, is pushing the boundaries on this statement...
And BTW, BrandX, if you think dirty pictures are the only reason to rate a game "Mature", have you ever heard of Grand Theft Auto??
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o.O Where did I ever say that?|
Originally Posted by galadiman
To the OP: I like your first Strange Idea. Something like Arena PvP, but with objectives. Also a little like a simplified Base Raid. Would take work to implement, but could be fun.
As for a general comment, some of what you express is a thing CoX seems to be actively avoiding as a core value, afai can tell: Villians can be d***s to Villains or Heroes, But Players should never be d***s to Players. They seem to be striving for "Mustache-twirling villains," not the "RL kind of villains" that do the kinds of things that make CNN Breaking News.** And I am Very Thankful for that - last thing I want to hear is someone got an unconscionable idea from CoX, and the evening news gave CoX free "PR". That's heartburn none of us ever need to experience. --- ** - I say this, knowing that some of the eviller CoV content, and more of the Praetorian content, is pushing the boundaries on this statement... And BTW, BrandX, if you think dirty pictures are the only reason to rate a game "Mature", have you ever heard of Grand Theft Auto?? |
I was talking about, oh hey look, I shot a fireball at a civvie and they...crumpled over.
I can go into a PvP zone with a bunch of players dressed as civvies, walking about waving at everyone and just throw fireballs at them.
Same effect. Taking out civvies (does it really matter that they're players pretending to be civvies or does it make that big of a difference) and...they just crumple over.
Grand Theft Auto, last I knew had, well, blood (never played the game), but I was under the impression no blood vs blood made a difference in the rating, not the civvie or super aspect.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Pardon me for a moment. I need to take control of these Council robots that are in a parade and have them open fire on the civilian bystanders. |
Originally Posted by galadiman
They seem to be striving for "Mustache-twirling villains," not the "RL kind of villains" that do the kinds of things that make CNN Breaking News.**
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(Yes, that's in a tip mission.)
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
At PAX East, the devs actually mentioned giving Villains the chance to twirl their moustaches - so moustache-twirling seems to be a guiding principle when it comes to designing red side content, which is the way comicbook villains should be
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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They are related, unfortunately. Heroes and Villains are enemies by default (not counting Vigilante and Rogues). Story wise it clearly stated that player Villains in most major missions under Arachnos banner and thus are natural rivals for player Heroes whom serve under regulation established in Paragon. And because of this relationship, it's odd that the current PvP and story/missions do not support such conflict, such as the aforementioned Mayhem missions not causing real damage to Paragon and its Heroes.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
You're confusing two things that are only marginally related. The 'hero vs villain' mindset/background/whatever is not the problem with PvP. The PvP MECHANICS (how PvP actually works) is the problem with PvP. It has nothing to do with hero vs villain conflict.
So, figure out whether you have an issue with the degree of hero/villain conflict in the WRITING and STORIES, or if you want to talk about PvP. The two subjects really aren't related. |
PvP shouldn't be the main focus of the game but it can certain raise the tension between the two factions. I, for one, would find being a Villain more entertaining if I can have a chance to get back at the Heroes and damage their positive works. As many people had said already PvP should be done with much caution and limitation, but it should be emphasized among the good and the evil. There cannot be true Heroes without true Villains.
With the moral line blurred, archtypes shared, and Praetorian invasion, how much tension is between Heroes and Villains at this moment?
I don't feel enough Hero/Villain conflict going on, really.
I remember when CoV first came out people were all excited about being villains and finally able to play the evil side (or just enjoy crushing the heroes). Some how I don't see the conflict rising after that. In fact, I see a decline in terms of Heroes v.s. Villains. One of the most obvious cue on that withered conflict is within the PvP zones. They're all but deserted at the moment. In shared locales like Rikti War Zone Heroes and Villains had to work together. Now Praetorians invade Earth and once again they had to cooperate.
Number wise there are far more Heroes than Villains in the game (before Going Rogue where the line blurs), which is the fundamental issue. You cannot have a proper conflict when the number gap is so great. Which leads to the next question: Is there an appeal in playing a Villain, enough to shift the balance of player population?
My first seven characters are Villains so I can only speak for it (only recently picked up a Hero toon). I just don't feel 'sinister' when I play them. Being a Villain should be an exhilarating experience, make you think, "Boy, being Villain is awesome! Evil tastes like chocolate cookie!" Unfortunately, I haven't feel the thrill in a while, namely because:
1) Many missions involved a lot of 'greater good', committing yourself to the benefit of the world. I don't know if Heroes have missions that force them to do the lesser of the two evils (like sacrificing 10s or hundreds of people's life for a particular mission's success, etc). As much as I was doing what's necessary for the world, it doesn't help building up the Villain mentality.
2) Mayhem missions allow me to kick Hero butts and wreck havocs, but they are NPCs and the zones are instanced, which means no real harm was done to the Paragon City, enough to affect their balance. Heroes never had to repair the damage done by Villains who caused damage. If Paragon City constantly had to mend their wounds from the result of Mayhem missions then it'd be more dynamic, that your evil deeds were painful and taxing for the Hero side.
3) When I go to PvP zones, either I don't find other players or when I do they tend to come in greater number. It's disempowering for Villains.
4) I can't backstab other Villain players. This is just wrong.
5) Why can't I rob and kill normal citizens on the street
6) Heroes and Villain now very much share archtypes (albeit a lengthy process) so the playing styles aren't unique anymore.
It is indeed more realistic (and a hell lot more fun) to have moral choices and you could be a Hero, Vigilante, Rogue, or Villain, but the fundamental conflict between good and evil shouldn't go away over night. I felt that CoH should encourage more Hero/Villain player interactions, and have greater impact when they do. One way to do so is to make Villains more appealing so the population can shift to a fairer level.
- Doing evil deeds should reward greatly, and that include the lesser evil. This involve more than defeating NPCs and should have less 'greater good' missions. Normal citizens should not evade our wrath more so than a great hero.
- Mayhem missions and PvP missions should cause permanent damage that Hero players have to respond accordingly or they suffer penalty in Paragon City. Unless the Villains can cause true harm, they would never be a true threat to Heroes. Warburg missile should be able to hit Paragon.
- I can see why developers hesitate to have an open PvP zones because # wise Heroes would very much crush the Villains, but I'm hoping for some ways around it, like cross server PvP but limit the max number on either side of the faction. That, or a free-for-all PvP zone would allow Heroes to act indecent and Villains to act virtuous (which would suit the Vigilante/Rogue mentality).
- Allow PvP to grant reward on par of fighting Praetorians and Riktis. Perhaps a scheduled PvP event so when Heroes/Villains gathering at this particular PvP zone and finish missions would yield great reward (incarnate shards, rare salvage, or special costume pieces). Have separated instances with regulated max #s on both sides.
- A strange idea: Have 'tiny' PvP instances where 5~8 Villains/Rogues would battle 5~8 Heroes/Vigilantes for a mission objective. While it's similar to Arena the line is at least drawn between good and evil.
- Another strange idea: Allow all players, regardless of factions, to enter most zones in Paragon City or Rogue Isles. In these zones. Players would have a Righteous/Sinister aura switch that would indicate that they are onto either arresting Villains or Attacking Heroes, respectively (with limit to level and number). People with the switch 'on' could initiate impromptu PvP against the opposing faction. Extreme places like Grandsville and Atla's Park (and other lowbie zones) would innately forbid entry.