Incarnate Strikes - A proposed solo/small team path
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-03-03 15:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This kinda gets to the whole point of Incarnates. You and Sam are not achievers (in the MMO sense, you might be in RL), so the point of the Incarnate content is lost on you. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
/this.
I want a reason to use them outside of raid for gear to raid for gear to raid for gear..... Nothing against Geko's idea (surprisingly,) but to me it's pointless without a *reason* to use them. (Which is why I suggest letting us solo/small team folks start directing this new power against Ruularu. Which also helps the lack of attention, updates, or *anything to do* in the Shard.) |
But the point is simple. The acquisition of ever more power. Of course, it's circular because you need better enemies to avoid things getting stale. But who cares. Fighting bigger and badder stuff to earn more and more power is A-OK with me.
I have never been against a solo path, but I have been against an easy-mode path. That's just the achiever in me. It's never been personal.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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From what we know they should work outside of the trials (except for the level shift). I believe the point Sam, Bill and others are making is that without newer, challenging solo content there isn't a lot of point to having them outside of the trials. The ability to steamroll the regular story content gets kinda dull after a while.
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Originally Posted by Jetpack
Are we certain that the Incarnate powers can only be used in the trials?
I had heard that about the two new level shifts, but not about the powers. |
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Nothing disclosed so far states that the powers are only usable in the trials. I doubt that would be the case.
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Originally Posted by Jetpack
Are we certain that the Incarnate powers can only be used in the trials?
I had heard that about the two new level shifts, but not about the powers. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Incarnate dailies. I like.
I like the idea, numbers may well need shuffling, but that's really the realm of someone who has access to the numbers anyway 
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I dislike time-gates, but given the disparity in power levels amongst individual characters, it's a necessary evil to maintain some rate-consistency.
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FIrst, re: "easy mode path" - you know what they say about assuming... |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
This kinda gets to the whole point of Incarnates. You and Sam are not achievers (in the MMO sense, you might be in RL), so the point of the Incarnate content is lost on you.
But the point is simple. The acquisition of ever more power. Of course, it's circular because you need better enemies to avoid things getting stale. But who cares. Fighting bigger and badder stuff to earn more and more power is A-OK with me. I have never been against a solo path, but I have been against an easy-mode path. That's just the achiever in me. It's never been personal. |
Second, you *can't* get "ever more power." There has to be a limit. Some of which we're seeing in that the various buffs won't work outside fo the specific content.
And third, *Going after Ruularu, you're fighting an insane god in his own mind.* Seems perfectly appropriate for god-level power as well as, as you put it, "fighting bigger and badder stuff to earn more power." But that, to me, is a *REAL* reason, as opposed to the ridiculous raid-hamster-wheel we're seeing. If all I wanted was "More for the sake of having more," I'd save $30/mo on COH and play this instead.
I like this idea. It has the potential of being combined with Arcanaville's "Incarnate Splinters" idea as well which would be fantastic.
Heck, while we're combining things, run a contest for Mission Architects to design the missions and get dozens of missions that way too.
Everyone's happy!
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As long as the missions 1) don't have to relate to Praetoria or the Well of the Furies in any way and 2) don't require tying up a published arc slot, (and preferably don't require using one at all, just e-mailing the local files, so people whose slots are full can also participate) I'd submit something. It would be extra extra awesome if the chosen missions had a "created by @so and so using Mission Architect" appended to the in-game text. That way the authors get some advertising for their own arcs and people get to see that MA can be used for more than just farming.
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Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
I like this idea. It has the potential of being combined with Arcanaville's "Incarnate Splinters" idea as well which would be fantastic.
Heck, while we're combining things, run a contest for Mission Architects to design the missions and get dozens of missions that way too. |
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Rather than rewriting, I'll just repost the most relevant things I said "the first time." These are unedited, but with some notes below.
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Note: I wrote that long before the whole "The Well Must Be Crazy!" story line was revealed.|
Been thinking about that. Honestly, its impractical to ask for several dozen different solo incarnate arcs specifically for this purpose, and ironically even if the devs could make them they would certainly be watered down because there would be less time to spend on each one. I would like them to concentrate on one really interesting mission arc instead of lots of boring and repetitive ones. The escape valve I've been thinking of involves using the Well itself: structuring the mission around a "test" by the Well to see how the player responds to power: how they possess it and how they use it, and how strong they are compared to a set of trials the Well constructs. This gives us the fictional context to allow the Well to randomize the challenges so that while the mission structure might be the same in every run, the mission structure is really just scaffolding to throw various combat situations at the player. For example, I was thinking of a mission arc where you have five missions each "testing" one aspect of the player. One might have a dark, creepy map designed to test the player's fear, and the random encounters in there would be selected accordingly: spectrals, demons, perhaps even dopplegangers. Another might test valor by having the player defend something against waves of attackers: Nemesis, say, or Cimerorans. These could even be similar to Shadow Shard "reflections" that the Well creates for the purpose of the tests. I was thinking that if we were really creative, we could partially randomize the arc itself. Suppose, and this is very rough so I'm just brainstorming ideas here, we construct a base arc structure with a twisty maze horror map, a defend objective mission, a rescue mission, and a defeat boss mission. We could then reuse some maps and basic mission mechanics from other content, with the excuse the Well was recreating these scenarios to test us, almost like a cosmic Ouroboros. The twisty maze mission could have a cave map, Mother Mayhem's hospital, a modified (and shortened) Orenbega map, etc. The defend map could have the reactor room from respec, the "henges" map, etc. The Rescue could rotate the save Statesman final mission, the Smoke and Mirrors fashion show, etc. We take some of these iconic places and scenes and reuse them under the fiction that the Well was using them to test the player. That could allow for a lot of different combinations of possibilities: you could have to save Statesman from the Rikti rather than the Praetorians, or prevent the Malta from taking the Terra Volta reactor instead of the Rikti. Separate from that, each stage would get progressively harder by having numbers and level scaling tweaked. The first mission might be +1x2. The Second might be +1x3. The Next might be +2x2. Then +3x1 with Elites. Then +4x1. If the missions occurred in different orders and had different scenarios and different critters randomly selected (from a specified pool of appropriate ones) you might not really play the same arc twice ever. It'll be a different thing to face Crey at +1x3 attacking Henges in the first mission than facing Malta at +3x1 attacking the Terra Volta reactor in the third one. The structure of the challenges would be the same, but the "flavor" of them would be different on each run because of the random element of changing both foes and map. Keeping in mind the numbers are made up for discussion purposes only: I only know I want the finale to be at +4 to match up with normal Incarnate trials. The path to that point and the number of missions to get to that point are not fixed yet in my idea. Also, I'm still thinking about the proper mechanics to assist the player if they cannot complete a mission, which eventually most solo players will be unable to do. I can think of three possibilities off the top of my head: 1. Have a loop, where if the player chooses to do so they can replay an earlier mission in the arc that grants a reward useful to completing the next one which only works in this arc, and can accumulate them if one isn't enough. 2. Have a "death bonus" where every time the player dies, they become stronger, but with some sort of time penalty (so it cannot be trivially exploited). 3. Have side content in each mission the player can do that unlocks significant temporary power, such as large insps useful only in the arc. 4. Provide two ways through each mission in the arc: the "fast" way completes the mission relatively quickly. The "slow" way requires more effort but provides a level shift useful only in this arc. A couple of ways to create a "slow way" include having a defeat all optional objective, having a long-timer blinkie guarded by a series of ambushes (that prevent using the blinkie while they are alive with things like autohitting debuffs or caltrops), or a special side mission to defeat a special boss for the bonus where you have to fight through his minions to get to him (as opposed to bypassing that part of the map entirely and getting to the "true" objective). Actually, the more I think about it the more it sounds like an interesting content challenge to construct. Unfortunately, the limits on the AE make crafting such a thing impossible, but the tools to do so probably already exist for the devs, or could be added without too much difficulty. I'm just not sure of the precise way to balance it all quite yet. |
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| How about if we flip this around. Since we're actually making the player work hard for those temporary boosts, what if instead of them being the quick path they were actually training wheels on the slow path? Racing to the end of the mission was the quick path, and plowing through the side tracks to get to the enhanced power was the slow path (maybe not overtly, but implied)? From a story perspective, that might make even more sense. |
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One problem is that you could then get two notices in a week by doing the WST and then the arc, unless they were exclusive. And while I want a solo path, I don't want one that detracts too directly from the WST, since I think that is also doing a valuable job of encouraging teaming for those that are willing to team. You could just get a team of eight together and steamroll the weekly arc. One possibility that might work is to have a weekly arc constellation. Lets say four arcs, each of which grants a "pebble of the well", and four of them make a notice. So you could run four arcs, or the WST. That might make the WST more attractive, but a soloer could just run all four arcs during the week. And if they cannot, there's always next week. I'm just tossing numbers out here: I haven't really had a chance to think about what the correct amounts should be. |
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On the surface, without breaking it down to compare numerically to my expected shard generation rate on my main, my gut says that this would be slower, or at least not notably faster, than simply going with shard conversions.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The Vanguard Hammer will have a NPC leader who will give ONE mission a day to a player. No matter how many Incarnate Strikes you've attempted in the last 20 hours, just as with Alignment tips, you can only get credit for a limited number. In this case exactly ONE per day.
... Just like with Alignment tips, you have to do ten before you get a big mission. |
It's a good beginning, but the rewards need to be more frequent. Despite the intention of Incarnates being "end game content", they're also continued progression for every level 50 character, whether those characters will ever actually be played in Incarnate content or not, and that's really the heart of the objections. Options for solo players to progress, good. Options for solo players to progress at a rate at which they'll only see any results several months later, not good, because it's too slow to retain interest or feel rewarding. If a teamed player can unlock new Incarnate slots at a rate of... three to five Incarnate TFs(?), which can be accomplished inside a week(?), then the solo option should offer the same results in a month. Similarly, if teamed players can generate sufficient Incarnate salvage to fill a slot in one week, solo players should be given suitable alternatives to fill a slot within three weeks.
Find a good balance on the frequency of those Vanguard Hammer missions, and you'll have a satisfactory solution for all involved. It's an excellent idea, though, and I'd very much like to see it go straight to the fast track for development, as long as the resulting pace of Incarnate progression was ultimately rewarding (by which i mean measurable, steady progress, no less than 2.25% per day/mission/whatever).
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The Incarnate Strikes would be substantially faster. Most people aren't earning 10 shards solo in a day. If you are though, you can convert to 6 threads. You need 60 threads to create one common ability in the higher ranks.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
On the surface, without breaking it down to compare numerically to my expected shard generation rate on my main, my gut says that this would be slower, or at least not notably faster, than simply going with shard conversions.
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This idea was constructed in order to allow a person to create an ability in one cycle. In ten days doing 11 missions, a person can earn 40 threads from the salvage bonus, plus a component from the final mission. Any shards earned during those missions are a bonus. The only way this would be slower than someone farming shards would be if they were creating 20 or more a day. That's something that hardcore group players may be able to do, but I don't know any soloist who can.
And even then there's no costs associated with my mission based idea and you don't have to use threads to buy exp to earn the slots.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I agree with at least the initial concept. It makes sense, follows similar game mechanics that already exist, and helps those who for whatever reason don't or can't team.
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Why? No, really. I realize talking about Tyrant is something you love doing, but why couldn't we have some big-team raids focusing on Praetoria and some smaller team stuff working the Coming Storm/Rularuu/Rikti War Resolution angle?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That wouldn't tie in with the Praetorian invasion - any solo Incarnate content would need to be themed around Tyrant's attempt to conquer the multiverse, so it'd match up with the normal stuff.
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Hell, they could even tie into each other later on. As the players unlock more power, The Coming Storm/Rularuu/Whoever begins ramping up their plans, resulting in invasions from two massive threats simultaneously. Paragon City is in complete turmoil, the Rogue Isles are thrown through a loop (Who knows? Perhaps a chance to renovate some of the older conventions/designs?) and the only way to save the world is for the Incarnates to desperately race for enough power that they might maybe --just maybe-- be strong enough to turn the tides.
Sounds pretty epic to me. I'd go for it in a heartbeat.
So, yeah. Why can't we have more than one relevant story arc at once?
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In I20, Prometheus says that Tyrant has to be dealt with first before we can start thinking about the Coming Storm.
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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
Why? No, really. I realize talking about Tyrant is something you love doing, but why couldn't we have some big-team raids focusing on Praetoria and some smaller team stuff working the Coming Storm/Rularuu/Rikti War Resolution angle?
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@Golden Girl
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But I've been thinking about the Coming Storm for ages, and I still haven't dealt with Tyrant.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
In I20, Prometheus says that Tyrant has to be dealt with first before we can start thinking about the Coming Storm.
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Obviously, Prometheus is wrong.
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Prometheus started with good intentions. Fire for man. Not such a harmless thing, right? In fact, considering the risks he braved, the beasts he faced, as he scaled Mount Olympus, why, one could call him heroic. And, he outsmarted the gods themselves. He stole fire from them, and gave it to man! A benevolent action! A great action! He should've been lauded a paragon of men.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
In I20, Prometheus says that Tyrant has to be dealt with first before we can start thinking about the Coming Storm.
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But, no.
The gods, in a display of gross pettiness bound him to a mountain side that his entrails might be ripped from his body, anew each day. His eyes pecked out, his very mind assaulted. Agony, he endured. For an eternity. Why? Because he committed the heinous crime of caring too much about his people. Because he wanted to improve the lot of his friends.
Their lot was improved, of course. Prometheus succeeded, did he not? Fire was given to the mortals. But for his sacrifice, they did not honor him. They did not struggle as he had struggled, to undo an even greater wrong. No. Prometheus was forgotten. He faded into the annals of history. A foot note, nothing more.
And now, these people who forgot him have sought the power of the gods who wronged him. No, not only have they the audacity to seek such power, they have been granted it without question. Prometheus has learned many things in the eons since his fall. He has learned hatred. And he has learned patience.
For now, he plays the ally, becoming the indispensable aid. So innocuous and necessary will he be, that he could never be questioned. Then, when needed most, the petty mortals who thought themselves above the true order of the world will find themselves quite without their crutch. They will fall, as he fell, and their gods will fall with them.
Prometheus will have his revenge.
Or, tl;dr: What makes you think he's a trustworthy source? His say-so?
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That sounds reasonable.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The Incarnate Strikes would be substantially faster. Most people aren't earning 10 shards solo in a day. If you are though, you can convert to 6 threads. You need 60 threads to create one common ability in the higher ranks.
This idea was constructed in order to allow a person to create an ability in one cycle. In ten days doing 11 missions, a person can earn 40 threads from the salvage bonus, plus a component from the final mission. Any shards earned during those missions are a bonus. |
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| The only way this would be slower than someone farming shards would be if they were creating 20 or more a day. That's something that hardcore group players may be able to do, but I don't know any soloist who can. |
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| And even then there's no costs associated with my mission based idea and you don't have to use threads to buy exp to earn the slots. |
Going to throw out some commentary in "the other thread", so as to keep this one on track.
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I first read it quick and thought you were talking about giving 4 incarnate threads for a +4/x1 mission after 10 +0/x1 missions, and I was about to say that if you're giving me the option to get 4 threads by simply doing that, I'll never touch an Incarnate trial.| THOUGHTS? |
Now that I see what you're actually proposing... I doubt anyone would do an Incarnate trial past the novelty of the first two weeks.
I would like it, of course, in the same way that I enjoy playing horribly unbalanced characters. Let's be realistic though, I doubt the devs are willing to give better solo rewards for an easier task than the teaming equivalent after they dedicated a whole issue to group/raid content.
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Leaving aside my doubt that Incarante story arcs will ever happen, I'd personally rather leave a proper solo path option off until there's content to solo through. Anything introduced now will be just a kludge used to let single players shorten their teamed trip a bit by moonlighting as Incarnates at times when raids aren't being formed, like 6 AM American Time or some such.|
Originally Posted by Legree
Well that's all they're being used in at the moment, but eventually, perhaps once the initial progression path is complete, I expect we'll see new contacts (new zones even) with Incarnate level story arcs, and one of my big concerns was that this stuff would, effectively, be gated behind either the Raid system or the current mega-grind, because the enemies we'd be facing would be balanced for Incarnates and not scale down to standard 50s.
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Again, this isn't a bad thing, I wouldn't say DON'T do it, but I don't intend to get off my seat and campaign for such a solo option until there's a point for it to exist. I've seen Arcana's suggestions and I've seen suggestions on how difficult this "should" be over the last few months, and I just know that the arguments as to how hard a solo path has to be will be brutal and unpleasant. It's not something I intend to go through until I see a point in going through it.
Like you, I too hope that once Posi gets the raid grind out of his system, that perhaps he'll go back over the system and expand it a little with a more solid body of content like they did with Cimerora, but I don't know...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Both Lambda and B.A.F. were completed on the first day they were up. |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Now that I see what you're actually proposing... I doubt anyone would do an Incarnate trial past the novelty of the first two weeks.
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Lambda gives two Astral Merits; one Empyrean merit; a guaranteed component; physical incarnate exp and whatever threads happen to drop during the trial. You can do in one trial what takes you ten real life days to do under my idea. This is my idea, and I would only do it for filler. It's designed to be slower than the trials, but better than the absolutely punishing rate the devs created so far.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Personally, I disagree on this part. I've always held the game's writing to a very high standard, but never really demanded a very high standard of gameplay. To my eyes, City of Heroes has never been about the gameplay intricacies. It's not an action game, even if we can kind of squint and pretend it's one, so "interesting" gameplay just ends up pissing me off more often than I find it interesting, and to be perfectly honest, "defeat all" objectives are still my favourite, even after seven years of trying other things.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Been thinking about that. Honestly, its impractical to ask for several dozen different solo incarnate arcs specifically for this purpose, and ironically even if the devs could make them they would certainly be watered down because there would be less time to spend on each one. I would like them to concentrate on one really interesting mission arc instead of lots of boring and repetitive ones.
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More than anything, however, demanding such a high standard on gameplay complexity means we get almost no content to speak of - barely a handful of missions per Issue. To me, this is nothing even remotely like enough, and I would very much accept a much larger body of content, comprised of far simpler missions. Again - Crimson's World Wide Red remains one of my favourite arcs in the whole game, and the whole arc is comprised of single-objective missions. Specifically, "defeat all," "defeat boss" and "rescue hostage." There aren't even any escorts, it's the old-style "I can make it out on my own" hostages.
To get into the concept of "flow in games" only very tangentially, complex objectives that stop me in my tracks and yank me out of the experience interrupt the flow I normally get from getting "in the zone" and running wild through a mission. So not only are "interesting" missions less interesting to me, but the need to make them interesting means we barely get any at all.
All of that is to say the following: I wish the developers would lower their standards for one Issue and just release a MASSIVE body of content, even if not all of it game of the year material. So long as the writing is solid, even if not groundbreaking, I personally will be good with that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Him being a co-op contact - co-op = heroic by default |
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
What makes you think he's a trustworthy source? His say-so?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
the absolutely punishing rate the devs created so far.
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@Golden Girl
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I'd say make that Boss level a mandatory EB rank, but that's just me.
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Any kind of new thing to do is good in my book, so I have no problem with this. (For that matter, I don't have much problem with what we got, but that's a different thread.) If the missions are interesting, this goes from "decent" to "great." The fact that it fills a mechanical hole in the reward system is just gravy.
Further, since it's an EvilGeko suggestion, it will, someday, come to pass. Seriously, most of the large-scale suggestions I've seen out of the loot-loving lizard, over the years, have been implemented in one way or another. I think he must just have the same kind of brain as the devs do (which may frighten either the gecko or the devs, depending on the context 
). I am pleased that this time, it's a suggestion I like.
Incarnate Strikes, coming in a future issue. You heard it here first, folks!
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