Incarnates and Homogeneity

In a year or two from now, at level 50, most people are likely going to have a better-than-blaster-tier-9 AoE attack, an AoE buff, and Praetorians for pets. They will also likely share other visible powers that we don't know about yet. (The Alpha slot and Interface slot are not relevant to this discussion, as they are not visible, or at least, Interface doesn't appear to be.)

In another thread, someone (leaving names out of this) said, regarding the Praetorian pets, "they're specific to an enemy faction and hard to sell as your OWN powers". The response was: "They aren't your powers. They are powers that you're taking (or being granted) from the Well of the Furies."

Last night, on one of Virtue's global channels, someone said something similar, that they didn't think they could pass the Lore slot off as their own abilities. The response was hostile and rude, and involved some swear words and laughing, but the important phrase used was: "You're not a special snowflake. You're an Incarnate."

I thought that was an interesting point. It does appear that, while there will be some minor differences, the end game system will make everyone more homogeneous. Back in the early beta of the game, it was changed from a free-form system to an AT system, because they found that everyone took the same powers. This led to a lack of diversity and "tank-mages". This thread isn't about tank-mages, but the diversity issue is what it is about, and I'm curious if people feel that Incarnates are showing that the devs think differently about the issue now. So, I have the following questions:

• How do you feel about the powers themselves based on the information that has been released so far, including in the sneak peaks and threads about them (here's a decent one, here's another, there are more), in terms of gameplay and how you feel about your characters having them (regardless of the lore)?
• How would you feel about your characters if everyone else had a significant number of extremely effective and visible powers that are similar or identical to yours? (If you are choosing to skip these powers, please instead say how you would feel about everyone else having the same or similar powers)
• How do you feel about the lore concept that Incarnate powers are not really yours, but granted by/stolen from an entity that has been stated to be insane (in the issue 20 overview)? How do you feel about your fellow heroes/villains being given/stealing these powers by/from that entity? If you plan to ignore the lore for your characters, go ahead and say so, but give your opinion on it too if you have one, please.
• Do you believe that character diversity is an important part of this game in general? If so, please say why, and from the information you have so far from the sneak-peaks or the threads about them, what impact do you feel the Incarnate system will have on that diversity, and the game as a whole? If not, why not?

Sometimes I wonder about the devs' perspective on these things, just wanting to know where they are coming from.

Read any critique of this game, and any reviewer will mention the customizability is one of its biggest strengths. Even players who aren't big on character concepts take the time to color their powers to be cooler. Yet the devs were genuinely surprised when the players still wanted pool powers customized, and insisted at times that patron powers belonged to the patron, not the character. (Something they softened on, thankfully.)

I can understand from a development time perspective why they wish to make these powers external. If the player owned the new abilities, they might want a broader range, while making them 'external' (that is, gifted) they are all the same, no supporting conditions to be kept in mind. After all, everybody is borrowing from the same source. No need to make the powers look or feel different for each player.

But they are, gradually, working against their own greatest strength: the ability for players to make their own characters, with their own abilities. Worse yet, if all the progression post 50 is externally based, it emphasizes how the character's own abilities begin to be eclipsed by an external power. Which is cooler, Superhero Man can do a punch for 500 damage, and a 'borrowed' attack for 5000 damage, or Superhero Man can punch for 500 and use his own power to do a super attack for 5000? Hint: one is all about the hero overshadowed by a greater power, the other about the hero becoming a greater power.

I can sum up my position, as bluntly as possible: They didn't learn from the Villain PPP's.

By the way, Interface adds secondary effects to your attacks. So, depending on what you pick, you'll see it.

As you know from discussions we've had, I'm no fan of the Praetorian pets. But other than that particular slot, I don't really see the Incarnate abilities as significantly increasing the homogeneity of players at level 50.

Yes, probably most hardcore characters will have the first five slots filled in a few months. But the great boon of the Incarnate system is that folks can choose where and how deep to go into a particular pool. Like Inventions, you can craft your own path to power.

Personally, plan on the following for my main: Very Rare Spiritual Alpha; Very Rare Diamagnetic Interface; Rare Ion Judgment; Rare Rebirth and Rare Barrier Destiny; and Rare Seers Lore.

I'm almost certain that others will make different selections. And that's what's great. People will do what they want. Yes, things will get a little silly with all the pets. I'm seriously thinking of making a Thugs/Dark/Mace/IDF Mastermind Vigilante just to break the game solo!

It is strange to think that eventually a fully slotted Incarnate (with all the Alpha, Lore, Judgement, etc. slots filled) will really be more a virtual "Incarnate AT" than a "random AT/Powerset alt who also happens to be an Incarnate". The old concepts of being a specific AT or having specific powersets will be minimized in favor of simply being an Incarnate, as if being an Incarnate was a brand new AT in and of itself.

I suppose it'll lead to a kind of "cookie-cutter homogeneity" the same way it would if everyone eventually only played Peacebringers or Widows.

This will sound trivial, but if all incarnate powers could be recolored, the whole personal power thing would be moot.

The pets make little sense even with lore. "I'm an incarnate, I'll reach into the well and pull out a robot!"

...wait, what?

I think being locked with Praet pets is the only thing I would fault. It does smack of the same lack of vision that was shown with the Patron Pools (or simple lack of viable tech for it)

*shrug*

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

"You're not a special snowflake. You're an Incarnate." That's probably the dumbest response that could be made. From 1-50, you ARE, indeed, special. Even before level 1, you are - after all, what's one of the biggest draws of the game? The character creator (and along with it, the fact you don't have to replace "gear." Your level 1 look isn't obliterated by level 5 by the new armor/weapons/etc you need along the way.)

How do you get your powers? The devs give us very broad "origins." My Magic character who has memorized spells doesn't preclude your magic character using devices, or the other guy's magic character who had magic energies infused into him that he found he can control, or the character who comes from a place where magic is as everyday as breathing. You using a Necro MM as magic doesn't preclude my zombies being formed quickly of nanobots or being part of an illusion. They've let us use our imaginations.

With some of the new stuff, though, it's like they forgot that.

As far as the lore links... I'm getting less and less enthused by it. There has been some mystery to the well (and, from long ago, the "box that trapped the potential of humanity unless someone opened it...") Exploring this line is fine. Tying us to it... eh. Yes, this road started in Cimerora (with the "forgotten/all encompassing/lost origin,") but it's gone somewhere that just... I don't know.

I can handwave away people having powers that look like mine. *shrug* I don't care. I did so for years, before power customization, and still do. They have their story, I have mine. I'm just "eh" about what they're doing to the lore. As it is, for other reasons, I'm probably not chasing down all the Incarnate stuff anyway.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I reserve this spot until all incarnate abilities are unlocked.

The thematic homogeneousness bothers me far more than the mechanical. The powers are slow, so you'll see people throw them out here and there but that won't change the general, reliable performance differences. Every hero can give a damage buff here and there from their alignment power, that doesn't make them supplant a good kinetics team member.

I've teamed with controllers for years throwing fireballs, I still won't call them a damage AT like a blaster.

Fast/reliable powers define archetypes, not the specialty/add-on ones.

Answered your questions.

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Originally Posted by Liquid How do you feel about the powers themselves based on the information that has been released so far, including in the sneak peaks and threads about them (here's a decent one, here's another, there are more), in terms of gameplay and how you feel about your characters having them (regardless of the lore)?

• The powers (minus the pets) are awesome. Hands down the best thing about the Incarnate system.
  
  
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  Originally Posted by Liquid How will you feel about your characters when everyone else has a significant number of extremely effective and visible powers that are similar or identical to yours? (If you are choosing to skip these powers, please instead say how you feel about everyone else having the same or similar powers) How do you feel about the lore concept that Incarnate powers are not really yours, but granted by/stolen from an entity that has been stated to be insane (in the issue 20 overview)?

  Don't care if everyone has the same powers as me. We've been okay with that for years. I see no difference. However, the Well of the Furies back story is woefully unimpressive.
  
  (Though I AM glad they gave SOME kind of backstory for why guys I just beat down YESTERDAY are suddenly so suped up.) It's the worry that many people had about the RP aspect that they stated before the "story" for issue 20 was released. As others have said there are OTHER lurking threats out there. If Praetoria ends up being the Coming Storm I will be VERY disappointingly unimpressed. "They built it up with clues and all that for THIS?"
  
  Also as others have said this backstory makes it VERY difficult to continue with the "Praetoria is morally ambiguous" vibe of GR. No it's not. It's now firmly established (GG is probably happy to be proved right) that Cole's regime is evil. Full stop. How very unoriginal storytelling.
  
  
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  Originally Posted by Liquid How do you feel about your fellow heroes/villains being given/stealing these powers by/from that entity? If you plan to ignore the lore for your characters, go ahead and say so, but give your opinion on it too if you have one, please. Do you believe that character diversity is an important part of this game in general? If so, please say why, and from the information you have so far from the sneak-peaks or the threads about them, what impact do you feel the Incarnate system will have on that diversity, and the game as a whole? If not, why not?

Character diversity is important. But I get why they moved a bit away from it (not totally) for end game. Having to make every part of the system customizable would probably mean we wouldn't be getting FOUR slots come I20. I also get WHY we are getting FOUR slots come I20 (as some have questioned). They have said that OMEGA is NOT the final slot. So for them to get through the original 10 before the game shuts down, they needed to speed up the releasing of the slots.

The Incarnate Slots will make more folks want to play at 50. That's a good thing. My fear is that it will DRY UP the lower levels for finding team mates. THAT IS bad for some servers. However, if the Incarnate Trials are pushing the devs to try HARDER to get cross server teaming going. THAT is a FANTASTIC thing. It's also gives the devs full justification so spend more of NCSOFT's money on getting cross server Leagues/Queues working.

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Originally Posted by Liquid Obviously feel free to expand on the topic in whatever ways you see fit. Important note: this post is not just about the Lore slot. It's about Incarnates in general, and how everyone is going to share many extremely visible and powerful abilities at the end.

I don't think we'll get TOO Homogeneous over the equivalent of ten "levels" of power. Many of the leaked attacks have long recharges, so our "core" powers will still be what they were as we leveled up.

Also, at 50 we won't suddenly be that way. At 50, there will be a whole range of people at various levels of Incarnate advancement. Few will have the time advancement to max out every single one, and many maxed-out heroes will be "parked" so the player can struggle through maxing out his other characters.





I'm somewhat annoyed by the "incarnate story" part here. It's a trend I've read about for some time, and we've seen it here as early as City of Villains (destined ones). Some (many) users feel the need to be spoonfed a story... and they're very critical of games that just let them loose to make their own. Catering to that mindset has become the norm in the non-worldy-MMO's that now dominate the industry because... its been rationalized... those that want to craft their own story are already imaginative enough to retcon away everything they don't like about overarching goal. They're flexible where the ones wanting spoonfed aren't. The incarnate system is just like that, except that even the manifestation of the powers there make it increasingly more difficult to retcon it away.

So, I have a story that I gotta retcon away, power effects I gotta rationalize away, and time wasted unlocking it instead of creating new characters with new stories?

The more I see the more I'm convinced that I'll have much more enjoyment just creating new characters and leveling them. They'll retire, as they have before, well before they hit 50 and start the Incarnate path. If this is where the development team is focusing content, thats OK too. I still have several hundred 4-5 star story-driven AE arcs I've never seen.

I just hope they give us more power proliferation and more character slots someday...