[Analysis] Why Nerve is a TERRIBLE choice for Defensive Powersets
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-02-19 20:49 in Player Questions
A: the incarnate system was not designed to grant soft-cap.
B: the average to-hit granted to NPC characters in Incarnate content has been raised so that you can't realistically soft-cap.
C: The days of passive soft cap are over. Get over it and learn to play the game.
D: For some characters, 4% may mean the difference between soft-capped and not.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I think the market shows that a percent of def is worth more than a percent of Endurance Reduction, Damage Buff, Recharge Reduction, or Accuracy.
Def is one of the more worthwhile attributes point for point. Your comparison isn't very relevant.
The alpha slot as a whole is not particularly well balanced. (Balanced in this case used to mean benefiting ATs and combinations relatively equally. )
There were some really big winners, buff debuff ats and powersets had plenty of joy from the alpha slot. Melee sets that had trouble getting high recharge because of the lack of 6.25%, and 7.5% recharge levels available to other sets. Sets with recovery powers or self heals on longer timers got a big win out of alpha.
Even /shield got a big win spiritual or cardiac.
At least you can easily adjust to gain advantage, take the medicine pool and spiritual
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Find where I even used the word(s) soft cap in my OP.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
A: the incarnate system was not designed to grant soft-cap.
B: the average to-hit granted to NPC characters in Incarnate content has been raised so that you can't realistically soft-cap. C: The days of passive soft cap are over. Get over it and learn to play the game. |
My point was not in any way related to the soft cap, and instead entirely related to the return on investment. A point you appear to have completely missed in your zeal to be obnoxious (again).
To repeat ... it is simply not possible to achieve greater than +6% Defense gain from the Very Rare Nerve Alpha slot with toggle and auto powers. A much more likely value is closer to +4% Defense, and possibly even less (depending on Powersets). That is a very tiny return on investment relative to the other options available to Defensive Powersets.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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And as soon as we see Alpha Enhancements trading on WW and the BM, you might have the opportunity to say "the market has spoken" with respect to Alpha Slots. Until then, your assertion isn't very relevant to the differences in return on investment in choices of what to Alpha Slot with.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
I think the market shows that a percent of def is worth more than a percent of Endurance Reduction, Damage Buff, Recharge Reduction, or Accuracy.
Def is one of the more worthwhile attributes point for point. Your comparison isn't very relevant. |
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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4%-6% really is not a tiny return for investment.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
To repeat ... it is simply not possible to achieve greater than +6% Defense gain from the Very Rare Nerve Alpha slot with toggle and auto powers. A much more likely value is closer to +4% Defense, and possibly even less (depending on Powersets). That is a very tiny return on investment relative to the other options available to Defensive Powersets.
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The market has spoken about the value of a percentage point of defense.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
And as soon as we see Alpha Enhancements trading on WW and the BM, you might have the opportunity to say "the market has spoken" with respect to Alpha Slots. Until then, your assertion isn't very relevant to the differences in return on investment in choices of what to Alpha Slot with.
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You missed the big point. He said that 4-6% more defense is not the same as 4-6% more end, or more damage. They don't correlate one-to-one, so your argument about your investment not being returned is flawed.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
And as soon as we see Alpha Enhancements trading on WW and the BM, you might have the opportunity to say "the market has spoken" with respect to Alpha Slots. Until then, your assertion isn't very relevant to the differences in return on investment in choices of what to Alpha Slot with.
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There are people that pay big money to get an extra 4-6% more defense on every power, and now they can just invest some time to get it via an Incarnate Boost.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
The thing is, the value of every point of defence is directly related to how much defence you already have.
If you're sitting at 15% defence, 4-6%, while nice, isn't a big deal
If you're already soft-capped, 4-6% is perhapps not a big deal (provides a little buffer for def-debuff or minor enemy tohit buffs)
If you're sitting at 40%, however, 4-6% can DOUBLE your survivability against foes with 'standard' tohit.
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
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For me, that is the key statement. I had some toons in this boat because of my slotting choices for other things (like recharge). I get this extra few percent and it gets much better, plus a level shift. I see it as win/win overall.|
Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper
If you're sitting at 40%, however, 4-6% can DOUBLE your survivability against foes with 'standard' tohit.
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Edit:
Forgot to add that we also don't know all the info on the other Incarnate slots. So we could speculate Alpha is where the devs want it for balance reasons.
There is a 4-6% increase after every power is at ED cap? Not too bad. Try taking a slot out of every defense power and see what the % is then. I dont know what you think the Alpha slot is for, but I use it to fill in holes in my build rather than build upon what I already have.
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No, Red is saying ~4% increase when you're at the ED cap, and ~6% increase with no slotting whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
There is a 4-6% increase after every power is at ED cap? Not too bad. Try taking a slot out of every defense power and see what the % is then.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Add me to this pile. | If you're sitting at 40%, however, 4-6% can DOUBLE your survivability against foes with 'standard' tohit. |
There are people who pay 3 billion for 3% Defense. There may be a reason for that (supply and demand is only part of it; they don't pay 3 billion for most other PVP IO's.)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Ah. Gotcha. Less than stellar return. However, I see you can still soft cap, and save 11 slots with SO's using it. Still not too bad.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
No, Red is saying ~4% increase when you're at the ED cap, and ~6% increase with no slotting whatsoever.
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It's for both, of course - to fill in holes, if you have them (recharge being most common, I'll bet), or to augment when you consider those holes too minor to care about. Either way tends to do quite nice things to your performance.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
I dont know what you think the Alpha slot is for, but I use it to fill in holes in my build rather than build upon what I already have.
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I dont know about you, but I probably wouldnt go cardiac on a claws regen scrapper...
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
It's for both, of course - to fill in holes, if you have them (recharge being most common, I'll bet), or to augment when you consider those holes too minor to care about. Either way tends to do quite nice things to your performance.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
A: the incarnate system was not designed to grant soft-cap.
B: the average to-hit granted to NPC characters in Incarnate content has been raised so that you can't realistically soft-cap. C: The days of passive soft cap are over. [Redacted for snark.] |
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
D: For some characters, 4% may mean the difference between soft-capped and not.
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F. If the extra defense isn't worth it to you, pull out a Defense Enhancement from every slot and add in two IO Sets elsewhere.
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je_saist has a point. My widow has to put Mind Link on auto to maintain positional defenses of 65.3% to 69.7% with the Cardiac rare slotted. Imagine how much worse it would be if i'd gone Nerve. Obviously that's neither passive nor at the softcap for the new content.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
B: the average to-hit granted to NPC characters in Incarnate content has been raised so that you can't realistically soft-cap.
C: The days of passive soft cap are over. Get over it and learn to play the game. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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First, solid test thank you for the data.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Anyone care to speculate what the reaction would be like if Very Rare Cardiac offered +5% Endurance Reduction? Or if Very Rare Musculature offered +5% Damage Buff? Or if Very Rare Spiritual offered +5% Recharge Reduction? Or if Very Rare Nerve offered +5% Accuracy?
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Second, I think the comparison you draw here is the weakest part of your effort. Nerve offers defense as a secondary, not a primary so comparing it to the primary effects of the other slots is misleading. Secondly, End Reduction, Damage, Recharge and Accuracy are Schedule A buffs, while Defense is a Schedule B, again a straight comparison is misleading.
Therefore it would be more accurate to say:
Anyone care to speculate what the reaction would be like if Very Rare Cardiac offered +5% Range? Or if Very Rare Musculature offered +5% Immobilize?
While we players might consider defense to be far more important off of the the Nerve slot than the accuracy, the mechanics don't agree with us. That slot is for accuracy first and all other effects are secondary at a lower value.
I don't hear any complaints that a level 50 Damage IO gives 42.5% and a level 50 Defense IO "only" gives 25.5%
I will admit that I expected more, especially with that many powers. But as I read it, the key takehome is that the minimum and maximum benefit is about the same. Zero slotting and 3 +0 SO slotting is only a 2% difference if I read your results correctly?
So if that 4-6% is meaningful to you, the fact that actual def slotting is irrelevant in many powers may significantly open up build options.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Something seemed wrong about all of this when I first read it, but I wasn't quite awake enough at the time to really think about posting a reply.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Without the Alpha Slot: 45.7% Defense vs Melee, Ranged, AoE
WITH the Very Rare Nerve Alpha Slot: 49.9% Defense vs Melee, Ranged, AoE That means that on a Sacrifice Everything To Defense character with *TEN* Defense Powers ... all three slotted with +0 SOs ... the gain in overall Defense vs All, after ED punishment is ... +4.2% to all positionals. If I use the Flip to Alternate feature in Mids' so as to "unslot" all 10 of those same Toggle and Auto powers, I get the following numbers: No slotting and without Alpha Slot: 29.3% Defense vs Melee, Ranged, AoE No slotting and WITH the Very Rare Nerve Alpha Slot: 35.1% Defense vs Melee, Ranged, AoE That means that on a Sacrifice Everything To Defense character, running *TEN* Defensive toggle and auto powers ... the net gain, undiminished by ED punishment is ... +5.8% to all positionals. |
You do realize that, according to Mid's, the Alpha slot's DefBuff is the exact same as you would get from an SO enhancement, do you not? You are boosting your Defense powers effectiveness (13.88% for Focused Fighting) by 20%. 20% of 13.88 is 2.776%. You will get the same amount of increase from the Alpha slot as you will from an SO enhancement. That doesn't take into account the portion of the Alpha that bypasses Enhancement Diversification.
I believe that your rant was based from a faulty premise.
I suppose if you don't believe me, I could get Arcanaville in here to go over this very simple math issue.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
The other thing you could do with a alpha is to take one slot Def out of each of 10 defense powers and have 10 slots to put into other powers and still gain about 1% defense.
Here is a reference Test Mule mocked up very quickly in Mids' for purposes of demonstration of just how bad the Nerve Alpha is for Defensive Powersets.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Defense Test Mule: Level 48 Technology Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(7), DefBuff(7)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(3), DefBuff(3)
Level 4: Agile -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(5), DefBuff(5)
Level 6: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Divine Avalanche -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(9), DefBuff(9)
Level 10: Maneuvers -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(11), DefBuff(11)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(13), DefBuff(13)
Level 14: Tough -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Dodge -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(17), DefBuff(17)
Level 18: Hover -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(19), DefBuff(19)
Level 20: Weave -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(21), DefBuff(21)
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: Lucky -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(29), DefBuff(29)
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: Evasion -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(36), DefBuff(36)
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: Moonbeam -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Shadow Meld -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(45), DefBuff(45)
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
Level 50: Nerve Total Radial Revamp
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------
Set Bonus Totals:------------
Set Bonuses:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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The test build uses every single Defensive Power (primary, secondary and pool) available to a Kat/SR Scrapper. Each Defensive Power is slotted with three +0 SOs for reference testing and turning on only the Toggles and Auto powers.
Without the Alpha Slot: 45.7% Defense vs Melee, Ranged, AoE
WITH the Very Rare Nerve Alpha Slot: 49.9% Defense vs Melee, Ranged, AoE
That means that on a Sacrifice Everything To Defense character with *TEN* Defense Powers ... all three slotted with +0 SOs ... the gain in overall Defense vs All, after ED punishment is ... +4.2% to all positionals.
If I use the Flip to Alternate feature in Mids' so as to "unslot" all 10 of those same Toggle and Auto powers, I get the following numbers:
No slotting and without Alpha Slot: 29.3% Defense vs Melee, Ranged, AoE
No slotting and WITH the Very Rare Nerve Alpha Slot: 35.1% Defense vs Melee, Ranged, AoE
That means that on a Sacrifice Everything To Defense character, running *TEN* Defensive toggle and auto powers ... the net gain, undiminished by ED punishment is ... +5.8% to all positionals.
What this means is that it is essentially IMPOSSIBLE to gain more than 4-6% Defense vs All at all times by slotting the Very Rare Nerve Alpha.
4-6% Defense from MAXIMUM return on investment through toggles and auto powers from Very Rare Nerve Alpha.
Anyone care to speculate what the reaction would be like if Very Rare Cardiac offered +5% Endurance Reduction? Or if Very Rare Musculature offered +5% Damage Buff? Or if Very Rare Spiritual offered +5% Recharge Reduction? Or if Very Rare Nerve offered +5% Accuracy?
Essentially, the return on investment into Very Rare Nerve Alpha slotting is so pathetically miniscule for Defensive Powersets (for whom such a return on investment really ought to be maximal) that the benefit might as well not exist at all in terms of weighting its value relative to other potential choices that could have been taken instead.
Once again, Defense gets the short end of the stick ...