Thank you Alpha Slot
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2011-02-16 23:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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You're not understanding what I'm asking. You said that the Alpha Slot/Incarnate System is a way for a character to become competitive without investing in IO builds. I am asking you what the character is competing in, because PvP is how players compete with one another, and as you said (quite rightly) PvP is a joke.
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Originally Posted by Katten
I am not saying it competes, I'm saying it's an alternative way to shore up a characters weaknesses, without forcing you into heavily wentsworthizing.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Understanding how PvP works doesn't make it any less broken. Just saying 
As far as competition, it exists in PvE too. When one person can kill a spawn in 2 secs, while the other does it in 2 mins, the second person is clearly not competitive with the first.
I agree that the alpha stuff is good in that it allows someone to become a lot more powerful simply by playing the game, rather than just spending a ridiculous amount of inf.
Competition is a zero-sum game. My purpled-out Very Rare Alpha-slotted SS/SD Scrapper's gain is not the loss of your SO-slotted Elec/Elec Blaster.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Umm...when you die in PvP, you don't lose anything at all either, so what's your point?
When people are trying to beat one another at anything, it is considered competition, at least to me. Obviously PvP is a different type of competition from PvE, but it's like comparing a head to head race vs. a race against time. Both are competitive.
How is my Scrapper trying to beat your Blaster at anything? He's just running Task Forces with his buddies. Why do you care how well he does? Unless we decide to race, we're not competing.
P.S. I really don't have any interest in PvP either, I only mentioned it because I couldn't possibly conceive of what other kind of competition the OP might be talking about.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
If we never run into each other, we'll never have any effect on each other, of course.
But say we happen to team up while you're on your pimped out toon and I'm on a weak SO'd toon. While I'm desperatly trying to kill one npc, you'll be killing entire spawns. I will become jealous of your power and attempt to improve my build so that I can become more competitive. So that maybe next time instead of being basically just a waste of space, I will actually be able to add some value to the team.
Just like in PvP, you don't lose anything physical by having someone outperform you. But you do lose or gain personal pride, depending on how well you perform compared to other players. I'm sure that nobody likes feeling completely useless while teaming.
I'm think that's what Katten meant when he mentioned "being competitive".
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
How is my Scrapper trying to beat your Blaster at anything? He's just running Task Forces with his buddies. Why do you care how well he does? Unless we decide to race, we're not competing.
P.S. I really don't have any interest in PvP either, I only mentioned it because I couldn't possibly conceive of what other kind of competition the OP might be talking about. |
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Originally Posted by Supermax
If we never run into each other, we'll never have any effect on each other, of course.
But say we happen to team up while you're on your pimped out toon and I'm on a weak SO'd toon. While I'm desperatly trying to kill one npc, you'll be killing entire spawns. I will become jealous of your power and attempt to improve my build so that I can become more competitive. So that maybe next time instead of being basically just a waste of space, I will actually be able to add some value to the team. Just like in PvP, you don't lose anything physical by having someone outperform you. But you do lose or gain personal pride, depending on how well you perform compared to other players. I'm sure that nobody likes feeling completely useless while teaming. I'm think that's what Katten meant when he mentioned "being competitive". |
More specifically, my pride in my character (and thus, the liklihood that I will continue playing them) is hurt if I am teamed up with a bunch of people that can outperform him in every manner on nearly every spawn.
If I ever find myself continually thinking "would it even matter if I wasn't on the team"? Because you're playing with people who can outdamage/outsupport/outcontrol/outsurvive you than before you either created a character that you thought was needed more, or you IO'd out your toon.
Now however, you can at least go "I'm going to do this ONE thing better" and suddenly you feel as if you matter again, because you can do something that SOME others cannot, or at worst close the gap. And you didn't have to IO that subpar toon to reach that level, you simply had to play the game. Voila, competitive concept character.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
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They'd better not be.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
I am almost positive that later Incarnate Slots will be disabled on non-Incarnate content.
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One of the things we were told when we first became incarnates was that we would become more powerful than Statesman and Lord Recluse.
I don't want to supposedly become one of the most powerful beings on the planet, with 10 very rare incarnate slots, only to walk into Peregrine Island and have my **** handed to me by a Malta boss, like I always used to be, because all my slots were disabled outside of an incarnate trial.
Equally, I don't want to run the STF only for Lord Recluse to shred us all three times before we get our act together, when every single member of our team is supposedly more powerful than he could ever become himself.
The last thing I want out of the incarnate system is that it ultimately becomes nothing more than a flashy light show for those specific trials, essentially making them all redundant as those trials were balanced beforehand with all the flashy powers in mind.
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
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It is when it comes to feeling like you're contributing to the team in a way appropriate to your archetype.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Competition is a zero-sum game. My purpled-out Very Rare Alpha-slotted SS/SD Scrapper's gain is not the loss of your SO-slotted Elec/Elec Blaster.
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For new players there's nothing like teaming with a purpled-out-set-bonuses-ignore-level-scaling monster who can wipe out the entire map before their loading screen finishes. 100% global recharge 60% global accuracy vs. unslotted or maybe TOs, ya, totally fun for the newbie. Even for level 50s teaming with a 'barney' can lead to feelings of "I'll just go stand in this corner if that's ok with you".
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
It is when it comes to feeling like you're contributing to the team in a way appropriate to your archetype.
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Didn't stop me from enjoying the game with old sidekick system. Wading into +4/5 mobs and letting rip. I may have not gotten many kill shots, but I helped.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
It makes non-incarnate characters feel considerably weak in comparison. It's not too noticeable now, but if they add more level shifts the difference in performance between an incarnate and a non-incarnate will be enormous.
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If you want more difficulty, raise the diff...
If you want to feel like a demi-god, lower the diff and go x8...
Everyone's happy, just not all at the same time.
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I don't know who said it here first. If the game spat out $50 bills from your CD slot, It would lead to complaints of "Why are they not sequential?"|
Originally Posted by Ogi
For new players there's nothing like teaming with a purpled-out-set-bonuses-ignore-level-scaling monster who can wipe out the entire map before their loading screen finishes. 100% global recharge 60% global accuracy vs. unslotted or maybe TOs, ya, totally fun for the newbie. Even for level 50s teaming with a 'barney' can lead to feelings of "I'll just go stand in this corner if that's ok with you".
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If people are starting to get to the point that they wish they were IOed/Purp'd out, that is an excellent time to start IOing and purping. I know it took me a long time to adopt to the IO system.
The way I figure it. As soon as you start measuring how you are doing by someone Else's standard, you have already lost. It is not fair to yourself. There is always someone better. Works well in real life as well
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There's no team in existence that can take that feeling away from me without my consent.|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
It is when it comes to feeling like you're contributing to the team in a way appropriate to your archetype.
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I mean, hypothetically speaking if you want to feel useful by spamming heals and the team stubbornly refuses to take damage, you might have a problem. But no matter what the team does, no team can do everything and leave me with nothing. I find what the team isn't doing and I go do that. If I don't feel like doing that, and I only feel like doing what I want to do, I don't team at that moment.
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What was enjoyable about facing +4/5's was watching your XP bar explode. In the case of incarnates, you'll not be advancing any faster, and will only be reminded that you'll have to do weekly TF's for a few months in order to reach that level.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Didn't stop me from enjoying the game with old sidekick system. Wading into +4/5 mobs and letting rip. I may have not gotten many kill shots, but I helped.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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That and playing with people I enjoyed playing with. My global list has been grey for a long time now. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
What was enjoyable about facing +4/5's was watching your XP bar explode. In the case of incarnates, you'll not be advancing any faster, and will only be reminded that you'll have to do weekly TF's for a few months in order to reach that level.
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I waited 7 years to hit 51. Working towards something bigger over a couple of months is not so bad. Actively working my level 50 toons towards something other than collecting dust is fantastic. Never mind that weekly task forces will soon be only one of at least two ways to advance your incarnate. Who knows how long the other path will take.
If watching what is possible to do with a character these days makes someone and thier characters feel inferior, perhaps they should stop watching what is possible. Or, knowing that it is possible on thier toons as well if they put the time and effort into it, it might motivate them to actually try it themselves rather than feel sorry for thier toon. Again, if you expect to gain anything from compairing someone elses toon to your own, you have already lost.
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Providing the team members that had set it at +4 could handle the TF without me, the lowbie, Id' probably think "Sweet Jeebus these guys are awesome letting me get these sweet rewards, I can't wait until I'm as uber as they are!".|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Imagine being in an ITF facing purple cons just because some members of your team have +4 level shifts and they get too bored beating on grey cons. Does that sound fun to you? Probably not, and hopefully the devs will implement something that discourages such situations.
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I'm a very casual player (heck, I only just figured out how to sign up to the forums
) and I don't feel perturbed by the existence of (+x) level toons or fully IO'd toons, I feel strongly encouraged by their presence because whenever I get to team with them I get to see just how super duper my builds can become given time.I don't have to get all of my incarnates/IOs in a single month, it's a nice thing for me to have to keep me playing and slowly, but noticeably, getting better over a course of months/years.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
If watching what is possible to do with a character these days makes someone and thier characters feel inferior, perhaps they should stop watching what is possible. Or, knowing that it is possible on thier toons as well if they put the time and effort into it, it might motivate them to actually try it themselves rather than feel sorry for thier toon. Again, if you expect to gain anything from compairing someone elses toon to your own, you have already lost.
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The only people who'd feel bad that other players are stronger than them are the people who care as much/more about the efficacy of their character than they do about playing a character whose playstyle they like and those people will find a way to make their character uber no matter what. Part of the brilliance of IOs and Incarnates is that one can take the shoddiest of the shoddy and turn it into a God-slaying machine.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
I am almost positive that later Incarnate Slots will be disabled on non-Incarnate content.
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If I'm playing a character who suffers large problems with blue outside of his Incarnate slotting then returning to content that gives me this headache again after having seen how awesome he can be without recovery issues would just make me cringe.
/not signed
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I'm more worried that high level incarnates will find things too easy and get bored than I am with casuals worrying they aren't strong enough. 99% of the game's content is balanced around non-incarnates (and even non-IOs). If we get to a point where we're +5 level shifted and there are only two missions in the entire game that pose even a small challenge, even at +4, that won't leave us with much to do.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
I'm not worried I'll be feeling weak. I'm worried that casual and newer players will feel weak, and this will turn them away from the game.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I honestly doubt we're going to get level shifted again any time soon. Main reasoning for those you've stated and taking hints from the incarnate arc mission, in which your fully incarnate self is level 51, also, from what we've seen in of the slots to come, there will be some major power enhancement, but not level shift.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I'm more worried that high level incarnates will find things too easy and get bored than I am with casuals worrying they aren't strong enough. 99% of the game's content is balanced around non-incarnates (and even non-IOs). If we get to a point where we're +5 level shifted and there are only two missions in the entire game that pose even a small challenge, even at +4, that won't leave us with much to do.
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I would assume the only new level shift will be when Omega is released way down the line, and there will probably few dedicated enough to reach that stage (at least with any more than their main.) for a very long time.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
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Actually, from the leak on the public test server it looked like some, if not all of the other levels of incarnate applied a level shift.|
Originally Posted by Katten
I honestly doubt we're going to get level shifted again any time soon. Main reasoning for those you've stated and taking hints from the incarnate arc mission, in which your fully incarnate self is level 51, also, from what we've seen in of the slots to come, there will be some major power enhancement, but not level shift.
I would assume the only new level shift will be when Omega is released way down the line, and there will probably few dedicated enough to reach that stage (at least with any more than their main.) for a very long time. |
And from the arc, you fight yellow AVs. AVs are +5. It's more than just +1.
It's possible that level shifts don't stack even if you have multiple very rares, and you always stay +1. But the way they advertised it, it didn't really sound that way. Castle even mentioned that it won't just be players level shifted.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I just don't see how it works otherwise, though. I mean, the LGTF and ITF are already completely trivialized with the Alpha Slot (even the major sticking point in the latter, Hamidon, can run pretty smoothly with just a few deaths), and the same is rapidly becoming true of the STF and LRSF. How much easier will these encounters become once we get the AoE powers from Judgement? The extra pet from Lore? How about you add on the team buffs from Destiny? Not to mention if we get more level shifts.|
Originally Posted by Aneurysmo
I pray this doesn't happen. This would create a horrible dichotomy between Incarnate content and non-Incarnate content. Some characters are completely legitimised by their Incarnate global buffs and stealing those hard earned slots away whenever one strays into the vast majority of game content would be a gigantic kick in the 'nads.
If I'm playing a character who suffers large problems with blue outside of his Incarnate slotting then returning to content that gives me this headache again after having seen how awesome he can be without recovery issues would just make me cringe. /not signed |
I do see one other option, and that is to provide a harder Incarnate version of those TFs, where if enabled it also enables your Incarnate slots (higher than Alpha, as it's safe to assume they probably won't take it away at this point), but if it's disabled, so are your non-Alpha slots.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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I wish there was an example of the removal of powers and enhancement values already in the game that could be used as a counterpoint to this overly emotional argument.
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Originally Posted by Aneurysmo
Some characters are completely legitimised by their Incarnate global buffs and stealing those hard earned slots away whenever one strays into the vast majority of game content would be a gigantic kick in the 'nads.
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Tonight we ran the LGTF and I forgot to change my difficulty settings: I had left it on +2. We walked into the first mission and I groaned when I realized it.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Then do +2 or +3!
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"Sorry," I said. "I forgot to change the diff. Do you want to restart the TF or wait until after this mission?"
Someone on the team said, "There's no rush," and another said, "I'm tired of seeing blues. This is fine."
I was running a Inv/SS tank with just a first-tier cardiac and was a little concerned with the Psi damage I knew I'd be taking later on, but we left it at +2.
And we cruised through the whole TF. The only serious problem was with Hamidon, but we toughed it out.
It might have taken 90 minutes, but everyone said they had a lot of fun. After running for a couple of weeks rushing headlong through every TF, it was kind of nice to take some time to smell the roasting Rikti...
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I had mentioned something similar in another thread. Basically, if the devs want to leverage existing content then they need to have an Incarnate switch/setting (or some such mechanism) for Incarnate teams running plain ol tips, radio or arc missions. Some mechanism which will allow them to leverage all the existing content. |
Originally Posted by DarkGob
I do see one other option, and that is to provide a harder Incarnate version of those TFs, where if enabled it also enables your Incarnate slots (higher than Alpha, as it's safe to assume they probably won't take it away at this point), but if it's disabled, so are your non-Alpha slots.
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Otherwise, it will be a mess. If you "turn off" Incarnate powers for what might be large sections of the game then a lot of players won't bother getting on the Incarnate treadmill. If you leave the powers on, then as the players get further on the Incarnate path the rest of the game becomes obsolete. Not to mention that, if this is the case, they cannot create enough Incarnate rated content to keep the horde of new Incarnates satisfied.
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
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-g=C800:5
However, you CAN do both and make an ultrapowerful character.
As for PvP... C'mon? (looks around) am I right? PvP is borked beyond all recognition, if you understand how it works, Kudos, I'm done trying to figure out new pvp, let alone plan IO builds for it.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo