I can't be the only one who hates having a Taunt aura.

Eva Destruction · 02-12-2011 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

EDIT: A Scrapper stealing aggro from a Tanker is only really a problem for the Scrapper, though. Remember that I'm arguing that taunt auras on a Scrappers is not good for the Scrapper.

No, it isn't. If a Scrapper has a taunt aura but sees their role as "kill stuff" not "grab aggro," (ie, if the Scrapper plays as if they didn't have a taunt aura) it can actually be detrimental to their squishier teammates. Example: A Scrapper positions themselves opposite the tank in order to avoid AV cone attacks, pulls the aggro from the tank, and onto the squishies. Not that this should ever happen with a good tank, but it does happen, I have had it happen, especially with Brutes who see aggro management as a secondary role and aren't slotted for it. A Shield Scrapper who doesn't care about protecting squishies is a detriment to any team they're on, unless the tank is very very good and doesn't mind constantly compensating for a loose cannon.

Not that I'm arguing against Scrapper taunt auras here, only that they shouldn't be as strong as a tank's. If Scrappers weren't meant to hold aggro at all they wouldn't have a taunt component in ANY of their auras, and they wouldn't have Confront.

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

Iggy_Kamakaze · 02-12-2011 01:22 PM

True story....

My Claws/Regen tanked an AV before while an Inv and Granite tank looked on from the ground

I think you all know which AV might that be

Void_Huntress · 02-12-2011 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyber_naut

One thing I do agree with the OP on is that SD's taunt aura is probably a bit too strong. While I actually enjoy pulling aggro off tanks, it really shouldn't happen as much as it does, as tanks should be far more effective at getting aggro than a SD tanker, and as of now that is not always the case.

Against All Odds' self buff is probably at least partly at fault here, increasing the scrapper's damage throughput and thus their hate generation. Aside from that, it's the same grade taunting as an Inv scrapper gets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

bAss_ackwards · 02-12-2011 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze

True story....

My Claws/Regen tanked an AV before while an Inv and Granite tank looked on from the ground

I think you all know which AV might that be

The amount of times Shield Defense, Invulnerability, Willpower, or Stone Armor Tanks have died before my Invulnerability Scrapper (if she even does) is kind of scary.

Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP

Remember kids, crack is whack!

Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it

DSorrow · 02-12-2011 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

The only conclusion I can see is that keeping aggro off of teammates is a secondary goal for Scrappers, at best.

I really don't see the logic in claiming that anything that has considerable personal damage mitigation is not supposed to be the target of (most) incoming damage. If that wasn't the design intent, why give them mitigation?

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

bAss_ackwards · 02-12-2011 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

No. I said that it's apparent from the design of the Scrapper AT that holding aggro is not their purpose. The basis of my argument is that Scrappers hold aggro TOO WELL*, so saying that they can't would be retarded.

*For their own good

Too well for my own good?

I have 2 level 50 Shield Defense Scrapper, 1 42 Shield Defense Scrapper, 1 39 Shield Defense Scrapper, 3 level 50 Invulnerability Scrappers, and 5 level 50 Willpower Scrappers. None of them have ever felt like they were holding too much aggro for their own good in my time I've spent with them.

Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP

Remember kids, crack is whack!

Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it

Vanden · 02-12-2011 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSorrow

I really don't see the logic in claiming that anything that has considerable personal damage mitigation is not supposed to be the target of (most) incoming damage. If that wasn't the design intent, why give them mitigation?

Every AT has ways of mitigating incoming damage. Scrappers happen to do it by increasing their own defenses.

Tankers are the ones that are primarily supposed to absorb damage, Scrappers do it as a secondary thing. You'd think that would be obvious from the way the actual defense powers are the Primary set for Tankers and the Secondary set for Scrappers.

Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

DSorrow · 02-12-2011 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

Every AT has ways of mitigating incoming damage. Scrappers happen to do it by increasing their own defenses.

Maybe I should've worded it to be more, you know, obvious. Of course I meant mostly "passive" mitigation through toggles and passives. Regeneration is another kettle of fish, though.

Quote:

Tankers are the ones that are primarily supposed to absorb damage, Scrappers do it as a secondary thing.

Never contested that. You'd think it was so obvious that I shouldn't need to say it, but here goes: Scrappers are there to mainly deal damage.

Quote:

You'd think that would be obvious from the way the actual defense powers are the Primary set for Tankers and the Secondary set for Scrappers.

Whether it is their primary or secondary function is irrelevant. They were given mitigation similar in form to that of Tankers, which should be obvious from the way the powersets are. They are more or less clones. I still don't see why Scrappers were given mostly passive mitigation if they weren't supposed to be a target of incoming damage, and in the case of your Blaster/Scrapper duo, the target of most incoming damage.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Vanden · 02-12-2011 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSorrow

Whether it is their primary or secondary function is irrelevant. They were given mitigation similar in form to that of Tankers, which should be obvious from the way the powersets are. They are more or less clones. I still don't see why Scrappers were given mostly passive mitigation if they weren't supposed to be a target of incoming damage, and in the case of your Blaster/Scrapper duo, the target of most incoming damage.

Scrappers have defenses it simply because their melee-focused playstyle requires them to have some form of mitigation to be any kind of effective at it. Would you also claim that Stalkers are also supposed to be taking damage for the team because they also have a defense secondary?

That's like saying a Federal Air Marshal should shoot at least one person on every flight he goes on, because why else would he have a gun?

Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

Santorican · 02-12-2011 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

Scrappers have defenses it simply because their melee-focused playstyle requires them to have some form of mitigation to be any kind of effective at it. Would you also claim that Stalkers are also supposed to be taking damage for the team because they also have a defense secondary?

That's like saying a Federal Air Marshal should shoot at least one person on every flight he goes on, because why else would he have a gun?

That is a really terrible analogy, and yes I have seen Stalkers take damage for the team, hell I've seen stalkers tank hamidon but that was a while ago.

Blasters have a lot of melee powers while not being melee centric they should have been given some damage mitigation by what you're saying.

Scrapper's primary job is to take down hard targets, and then secondary they are to absorb damage. I thought everyone knew that.

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

Vanden · 02-12-2011 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santorican

That is a really terrible analogy, and yes I have seen Stalkers take damage for the team, hell I've seen stalkers tank hamidon but that was a while ago.

How? How is that a bad analogy? It shows the fallacy of the "if you have something you should use it" line of thought. Is it because a hypothetical someone gets shot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santorican

Blasters have a lot of melee powers while not being melee centric they should have been given some damage mitigation by what you're saying.

1. Blasters are not melee-focused, Scrappers are.
2. Control powers abound in Blaster secondaries and some primaries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santorican

Scrapper's primary job is to take down hard targets, and then secondary they are to absorb damage. I thought everyone knew that.

A Scrapper does not have a "job" on a team, because Scrappers are not designed as a team archetype. Scrappers play a commonly damage-focused role in teams because they have to do something and damage is what they're good at.

EDIT: Let me clarify: every AT can do damage. The goal of the game is to defeat your enemies. When a team is formed, it is implicitly understood that their goal will be to defeat enemies together. The reason they team up is because they offer something on top of damage output to other players. Tankers can absorb lots of damage that other ATs cannot. Blasters can defeat enemies quickly but can't weather a sustained assault. Defenders can't weather a sustained assault or defeat enemies quickly, but can enable another AT to do both better.* Scrappers, however, can already do lots of damage and take damage quite well. In joining a team, they don't empower a teammate and they don't need another AT to make up for their shortcomings.

*It doesn't matter if your X CAN take lots of damage, or you've seen a Y defeat a dozen enemies at once. Those are outliers and only show the flexibility of CoH's combat that we love so much.

Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

MunkiLord · 02-12-2011 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards

Too well for my own good?

I have 2 level 50 Shield Defense Scrapper, 1 42 Shield Defense Scrapper, 1 39 Shield Defense Scrapper, 3 level 50 Invulnerability Scrappers, and 5 level 50 Willpower Scrappers. None of them have ever felt like they were holding too much aggro for their own good in my time I've spent with them.

If you're not holding too much aggro, maybe you aren't trying hard enough?

But seriously, I think more Scrapper secondaries need taunt auras. Everytime I go from playing my WP or SD scrapper to my SR, I feel sad.

Nihilii · 02-12-2011 04:47 PM

I just love the logic here : "scrappers who can aggro shouldn't be able to aggro, because scrappers shouldn't aggro ; scrappers shouldn't aggro because they can't aggro."

tektronics · 02-12-2011 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

Scrappers, however, can already do lots of damage and take damage quite well. In joining a team, they don't empower a teammate and they don't need another AT to make up for their shortcomings.

Ok so if you don't need another AT to make up for shortcomings why are you complaining about dying due to a taunt aura? Shouldn't you be able to survive since you are so self-reliant?

Scrappers do have a point on a team... If you have a tank, a scrapper, and various squishies and the team gets overwhelmed that taunt aura may just save your teammates, and if you don't care and don't want to get killed because of your aura then...

1. Don't use your power with a taunt aura
2. Play a scrapper without a taunt aura
3. Play something else
4. Play all your spawns at x1 and don't team

bAss_ackwards · 02-12-2011 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MunkiLord

If you're not holding too much aggro, maybe you aren't trying hard enough?

But seriously, I think more Scrapper secondaries need taunt auras. Everytime I go from playing my WP or SD scrapper to my SR, I feel sad.

My good man, the aggro cap is an aggro cap, is an aggro cap, is an aggro cap.

Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP

Remember kids, crack is whack!

Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it

Bosstone · 02-13-2011 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

Scrappers have defenses it simply because their melee-focused playstyle requires them to have some form of mitigation to be any kind of effective at it.

Bingo. This is exactly why some scrappers have taunt auras, too; their playstyle requires them to have it to be any kind of effective. Glad we're all on the same page now.

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

DSorrow · 02-13-2011 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

Scrappers have defenses it simply because their melee-focused playstyle requires them to have some form of mitigation to be any kind of effective at it. Would you also claim that Stalkers are also supposed to be taking damage for the team because they also have a defense secondary?

I'd claim that Stalkers are supposed to be taking the damage for the team if there is no one else with better mitigation around. Why? Well, isn't that just how Tankers work? They are the ones with the best mitigation around so they should be taking the damage.

Quote:

That's like saying a Federal Air Marshal should shoot at least one person on every flight he goes on, because why else would he have a gun?

No, it's more like saying a Federal Air Marshal should use the gun to stop* at least one person on every flight where it's needed, because why else would he have a gun? If it's not needed due to no one needing to be stopped or having people better suited to that task around (I'm no expert at US anti terrorist stuff), the Air Marshal shouldn't do it. Terrible analogy is terrible.

That's just like Scrappers, in my opinion. If their tanking is not needed in a team, that's fine, but if there is nothing more tanky around, they should be able to pull that off. That's why I want taunt auras on each of my Scrappers, just to make it less of a hassle.

I know this won't convince you, but I'll let you know: you won't convince me otherwise either. Ha! Yep, I'm out of this "debate".

*Whether that's by shooting or threatening with it.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Santorican · 02-13-2011 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

How? How is that a bad analogy? It shows the fallacy of the "if you have something you should use it" line of thought. Is it because a hypothetical someone gets shot?

Because they're only supposed to use it when something is wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

1. Blasters are not melee-focused, Scrappers are.
2. Control powers abound in Blaster secondaries and some primaries.

But by what you said because Scrappers are melee centric they need damage mitigation, blasters have quite a few melee powers in most of their secondaries so they should have damage mitigation too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

A Scrapper does not have a "job" on a team, because Scrappers are not designed as a team archetype. Scrappers play a commonly damage-focused role in teams because they have to do something and damage is what they're good at.

What you just said scrappers do have a job on a team, doing damage, whether they have to do something or not, its still a job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanden

EDIT: Let me clarify: every AT can do damage. The goal of the game is to defeat your enemies. When a team is formed, it is implicitly understood that their goal will be to defeat enemies together. The reason they team up is because they offer something on top of damage output to other players. Tankers can absorb lots of damage that other ATs cannot. Blasters can defeat enemies quickly but can't weather a sustained assault. Defenders can't weather a sustained assault or defeat enemies quickly, but can enable another AT to do both better.* Scrappers, however, can already do lots of damage and take damage quite well. In joining a team, they don't empower a teammate and they don't need another AT to make up for their shortcomings.

You're right Scrappers don't empower a teammate, but that is not their role on a team. Their roll is to do lots of damage and that is it. By what you just said doing damage is not empowering a teammate so therefore blasters are worse than scrappers because they actually need to be looked after. A Scrapper can do a Blaster's job and do it with less risk because they have damage mitigation, and do not need any outside AT help to do so. So it is more beneficial to the team to have a Scrapper then a Blaster.

At this point the conversation has devolved into arguing about technicalities and some other BS. The original intent was to talk about why Scrappers have Taunt auras and the short answer is because they do, if you don't like it, don't pick the power or play the secondary.

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

ClawsandEffect · 02-13-2011 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santorican

The original intent was to talk about why Scrappers have Taunt auras and the short answer is because they do, if you don't like it, don't pick the power or play the secondary.

Exactly this.

If you hate getting agro so much, play a Ninjitsu stalker instead. That way you can use Placate or Smoke Bomb every time something even looks in your direction.

Scrappers have taunt auras because of overlap between AT roles. Scrappers can serve as light tanks if need be, and the sets that have taunt auras are better at it than the sets that do not.

If there wasn't meant to be overlap between AT roles, Controllers would not have Defender primaries as their secondaries. And yet they do. And scrappers have taunt auras. Deal with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Santorican · 02-13-2011 11:14 AM

And now a moderator should lock the thread

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

Iggy_Kamakaze · 02-13-2011 11:22 AM

Not until they put the taunt aura on my SR Scrapper

Pinny · 02-13-2011 12:34 PM

SR scrappers don't need a taunt aura.

The only reason brute SR does is because they need enemies trying to attack them to uild fury.

Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
@Pinny

Iggy_Kamakaze · 02-13-2011 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinny

SR scrappers don't need a taunt aura.

Not talking about needs...... I wants!!!

Quote:

The only reason brute SR does is because they need enemies trying to attack them to uild fury.

ohhh yeah.....
Just like EA needing one of those ...

Texarkana · 02-13-2011 01:45 PM

Personally, I get a satisfied little grin on my face when I get scrapper-locked and overshadow the "tanker role", with the team cheering and showering me with compliments. Taunts are tasty -- bunch'm together and SHING-SHING-SHING, body parts everywhere. ( ' ;

@Texarkana
@Thexder

UberGuy · 02-13-2011 03:36 PM

My recently much-improved BS/Inv Scrapper tanked LR last night in an STF that had nothing better at holding his aggro. I did it by the now well-published tactic of parrying a tower while my nicely auto-hit aura kept him annoyed with me. I had to be healed once, I used Unstoppable and I popped a few tier-3 lucks to fend off his +toHit, but I'm quite happy with my little edge case use of my Scrapper's taunt aura.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA