By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2011-02-07 23:55 in Scrappers
| I get most of it, but what is the denial about shield? |
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Originally Posted by beowulf2010
Oh yeah, hate to break it to ya, but if your experience was typical, then *SOMEONE* would have agreed with you by now...
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Mostly people claiming "Shield sucks until the softcap at level 50 with billions of influence thrown at it" over and over, despite how many times the argument has been debunked.
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Funny thing is that while some people are bothered by it to an extreme, there's still people who play the game completely unaware of the fact that some Scrapper sets even have taunt auras to hold aggro. I've been in multiple teams where people absolutely did not believe me when I said /Shield for Scrappers can hold aggro as well as a tank can.
Mind boggling.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
It's great that you guys have these high-performance, soft-capped, unkillable Scrappers that can handle multi-AV aggro, but most players don't and they're suffering for their taunt auras.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
This is something that seriously annoys me on a Scrapper. I don't have Tanker or even Brute HP or defense numbers. I'm not meant to bear the brunt of an entire spawn. Yet if I use some of my strongest powers, I risk stealing aggro from a Tanker and getting splattered.
I really wish none of the various aura powers for Scrappers had Taunt in them. When I see that Shield Defense or Invulnerability has one of them, I consider that a serious drawback to taking the set. |
Hmmm, turns out I was wrong about something I said earlier. The Tanker my Fire/Shield can steal aggro from does NOT have Invincibility slotted for Taunt, only Taunt is slotted for Taunt. My aggro surprises me less now. So in AV fights, he's balancing doing damage to get it over faster with keeping aggro. Since I can handle some AV aggro, even if not the whole fight, we just walk that line, and every now and then the AV starts beating on me for a little bit.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Sure those sets need enemies in melee for those powers to work best, but you're a Scrapper; you're going to close in melee with them. They don't need to be attacking you to get that benefit, and besides, an enemy who isn't attacking you is an enemy you don't need defenses against.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So what do you do with an enemy group like Council or Nemesis that likes to stand back and shoot at you?
Since they are reluctant to move without prompting, you will end up fighting one at a time, and none of those powers that need enemies in melee range will be nearly as good as when there is a whole group clustered around you. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Part of the functionality of those powers is so that when you are on a team you can keep things in melee range of you to benefit from. An Invulnerability scrapper who is not softcapped would have a hell of a time keeping his defenses up if Invincibility did not taunt. If it didn't taunt, things would go rushing off to squash the fire blaster who just lit them on fire, taking your defense with them.
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There's not always a Brute or a Tank on the team (or Scrappers for that matter) so having those Taunt Auras also are of great help to the squishies on the team, allowing them to use AoE's on a concentrated group of enemies without any retaliation.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
I...don't understand how a taunt effect helps with that.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
I...don't understand how a taunt effect helps with that.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
But like I said, things that go rushing off to kill the fire blaster aren't attacking the Invul Scrapper.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Because with a Taunt aura and a little movement you can get them gathered around you. And that buffs your powers a lot more than having them running around sniping away. It also lets you kill them more efficiently, which is a form of damage mitigation.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Wait, you WANT things to go chase the Blaster instead of attacking your Invulnerability Scrapper? Do you think the Blaster is tougher than your Scrapper, do you just not care about teammates, or is there some other rationale here that I'm not thinking of? Do I need to read the thread carefully again?
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I think that was somewhat of a bad example, because that's less about the taunt aura aspect and more about the fact that you're running in and likely going to break LoS to get them to group up.. the Taunt Aura doesn't come into play until you've grouped them up and then they're stuck on you.
And I tend to agree that most Scrappers wouldn't care who enemies are attacking, but I think taunt auras allow you to help your team moreso than if you didn't have one. The range of it is enough that if you don't care about it, you will likely avoid gathering the aggro of the entire mob, but if you're conscientious then you can mitigate a lot of damage for other people, while simultaneously buffing yourself.
The Scrapper role, just like any other AT role, is to be awesome, not to act like some bloody idiot straight from Everquest who believes in the Holy Trinity. Why should your teammates care about you if you're not even going to try to help them? They'd be better off with anyone else. Thankfully this game is easy enough to allow for pity spots... Which probably means you do end up on teams often and think you being on teams legitimize your self-centered style of play.
In fact, "why should I care?" is the perfect answer to every single of your topics. You obviously don't give a damn about anyone else and think the game should be designed around you... Wait, scratch that part. You care about others if and only if they're having more fun than you, in which case you want to nerf whatever it is they're having fun with, even though it'd provide no improvement to you whatsoever (see: "nerf hurdle" topic).
Well, good luck with that.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Why should I care? I'm a Scrapper, the quintessential self-reliant AT. Sure, while as a PLAYER I might not want that Blaster to die, that's not what the Scrapper AT is about. That's like saying a Dominator should heal or a Corruptor should spam holds. A player might want to and build their character for it, but it's far from the norm and not what they're meant for.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
it's far from the norm
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| not what they're meant for. |
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Originally Posted by DSorrow
Evidence, please.
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Threat level matters very little when it comes to taunting and whatnot, based upon aggro mechanics. The most important part is the duration of taunt effects, which are consistant for sets that have them (All versions of /Shield, /Invuln, /WP have the same duration).
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Brutes, Tankers: Taunt with every attack*, AoE taunt in melee set, taunt aura in every defense set, highest Threat Level in game
Scrappers: Single target taunt in melee sets, taunt aura in only some defense sets, lower threat level than Tankers or Brutes The only conclusion I can see is that keeping aggro off of teammates is a secondary goal for Scrappers, at best. |
"I hate taunt auras on Scrappers because I get and hold all the aggro, so everything attacks me and then I die. Scrappers shouldn't have taunt auras because aggro control isn't their function. I know that aggro control isn't their function because they aren't able to get and hold aggro. And BTW, screw that Blaster, because I've mistaken being self-centered for being self-reliant."Sound about right?
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Originally Posted by Werner
I know that aggro control isn't their function because they aren't able to get and hold aggro. And BTW, screw that Blaster, because I've mistaken being self-centered for being self-reliant."
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Originally Posted by Vanden
No. I said that it's apparent from the design of the Scrapper AT that holding aggro is not their purpose. The basis of my argument is that Scrappers hold aggro TOO WELL*, so saying that they can't would be retarded.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
*For their own good
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Originally Posted by Werner
You compared the design of the Brute and Tanker ATs (taunt in every attack, all have taunt aura, etc.) with the Scrapper ATs (only taunt aura in 3 secondaries). That sure reads, to me, like you're saying that Scrappers are much worse at getting and holding aggro than the other ATs. [...] Perhaps you can see how your argument, to someone not inside of your head and privy to your actual thoughts, might look a little... inconsistent?
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Again, I said it only implies they're meant to be second-class taunters, not that they are. It only appears inconsistent when you assume that I'm saying that they ARE second-class taunters, which I'm not, and never have. That whole thing was posted as a response to a request for evidence for my thinking that Scrappers aren't meant to hold aggro, so concluding that I don't believe Scrappers are good at holding aggro with a taunt aura not only puts words in my mouth but also ignores the context of those statements.
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It's certainly not a design flaw. Tanks, brutes and scrappers are all meant to draw aggro, that's why they have taunt in one of there powersets. Some scrapper secondaries have taunt auras, some don't. Sometimes they are an advantage, sometimes not.
I personally prefer taunt auras because I build my scrappers to be durable and the more stuff I can get around me the faster I can kill it, especially with aoes. IMO, if you don't like to draw a lot of aggro, you're probably playing the wrong at, maybe try a stalker. As far as I'm concerned, and apparently the devs agree, scrappers are meant to be one of the bigger attention grabbers in combat, and thematically it sure seems to make sense.
One thing I do agree with the OP on is that SD's taunt aura is probably a bit too strong. While I actually enjoy pulling aggro off tanks, it really shouldn't happen as much as it does, as tanks should be far more effective at getting aggro than a SD tanker, and as of now that is not always the case.