Return to the old defiance for Blasters.
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-02-07 15:04 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Exactly. Using the term as some defacto excuse doesn't fly.
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Originally Posted by Oldeb
See, that's not really how opinions work.
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I loved old defiance (at the time). I don't mind dying. I had a toon that I deleted after defiance changes, simply because his style really only worked with old defiance. Old defiance could be a lot of fun if you accepted its fallbacks; perma-debt, ridiculously slow leveling, and limited damage in team environments (since you couldn't really leverage old defiance well on teams). You played for the thrill of surviving, and the hope that you'd reach the next level before you retired. It was a badge of honor to be in perma-debt, and teams didn't quit simply because they faced the slightest amount of resistance. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
New Defiance has a Damage buff that relies on attacking, not incurring damage. That is better. New Defiance also has a partial mez workaround. That is better.
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From a perfomance standpoint, old defiance completely pales in comparison to new defiance. The normalization of damage gives you a constant buff, the mez workaround makes it so that you're not instantly dead due to one mez, and it works a lot better in a team setting. There is a reason many ATs have seen similar normalizations, because it is an easy fix to several problems. It's easier for the players to balance around, and much easier for the devs to balance around.
Old defiance simply doesn't work in this environment. We have IOs now (which we didn't have then), debt is all but eliminated, and the game is not about simply surviving and leveling, but about maxing out your characters to make everything as overpowered as possible. In that light, old defiance fails, miserably. It was a neat idea (from a comic standpoint), but a very poor game mechanic (like many of the older mechanics). It didn't work solo (because the odds of you pulling out that miracle were really quite low given the alive or dead binary nature of the game), and was next to useless in a team setting.
There is a reason why you will find nearly unanimous levels of opinion on this subject.
As a veteran Blaster, I have to say
No chance.
Defiance 1.0 felt like a gimmick, yeah it 'saved' me a few times but more often than not, the internal debate on if I should pop a green or trust my defiance buff usually resulted in me faceplanting.
Defiance 2.0 doesn't suffer from this problem and has actually saved me much more, yeah when I'm held I can only fire off my weakest attacks but most times when me health is really low I only need one more bolt to finish them off.
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The flaw in your suggestion is that while the old Defiance helped you kill one more enemy before you died (in addition of making you put yourself in that situation), "Defiance 2.0" helps you not die in the first place. There is more to the Inherent than just being able to shoot out of a hold, even if that's important.|
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
Point taken, but this thread, as well as all our opinions are just that, our opinions. Several times recently I've been at the end of my health bar, about to die, on a lowbee blaster and I've come to miss the old defiance in those instances. The old version used to help me with killing the last of a mob as I'm about to die with some massive damage. I've never cared for the new version in comparison. But, that's just my opinion.
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Defiance 2.0 grants you stacking damage buffs from every power in your primary or secondary, oftentimes in amounts greater than old defiance could maintain with any safety. It also saw Blaster base ranged damage go up 12.5%, which is not insignificant. And, yes, it helps you shoot out of a hold, potentially avoiding being perma-held and slow-killed.
The old defiance was one of the worst ideas the developers have ever had, for the simple fact that there was nothing good about it. The ability to kill one enemy in the very narrow window of health where the buff meant anything, which was generally below about 20% when you could be one-shotted by a defeated Jaeger, did nothing to make up for the fact that Blaster performance was tragic. In fact, Defiance was seen as the only way for Blasters to compete, causing the game's most fragile AT to incite players to deliberately hurt themselves and deliberately not heal, deliberately putting themselves in situations where they would take unreasonable risks and die for their efforts. And datamining showed this without a shadow of a doubt.
You're arguing for a provably inferior system for the sake of one rare and insignificant instance where it could be helpful, suggesting that we scrap a system which, quite frankly, holds an entire AT together and keeps it from being complete and utter garbage. Just like the complete and utter garbage it was before the Defiance changes. This isn't about opinion any more so than you can claim it is your opinion aeroplanes should fly without wings because the view from the windows would be better. The old Defiance is factually inferior to the new Defiance in all aspects which actually matter for AT balance.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Old Defiance SUCKED.
It should say something that it was summarily discarded in the first place. It is not a coincidence that when defiance was changed, blaster performance improved.
Do you know WHY Defiance was changed? It wasn't "just cuz", it was because with old Defiance blasters were the most underperforming AT in the game.
The devs datamined and discovered that the average blaster spent nearly TWICE as much time in the 30's as any other AT. Why? Because the average blaster was debt capped or close to it the entire time.
Old Defiance was one of the most horrible design decisions in the game. That is not just my opinion, the datamining done by the devs and the experiences of my fellow players back it up.
So, no, bringing back Old Defiance is a bad idea, and will (thankfully) never see the light of day. If the devs thought old Defiance was a good idea, we would still have it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Bad idea.
Defiance 2.0 is much better for me that 1.0 ever was.
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To the OP:
Your opinion or mine is irrelevant. Once the devs used DATA to find out that the old defiance did NOTHING to help blasters it was gone. Doesn't matter what you or I think.
EDIT: The old defiance was garbage. Sorry.
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Dearest OP,
No.
Sincerely,
Nalrok
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I like the idea of the old defiance. I think that the implementation of the old defiance is problematic, however the idea itself is not bad. The old defiance didn't take into account the fact that players tend to make use of the power actively, instead of treating it as a bonus. If there is a way to implement the old idea such that blasters won't intentionally keep themselves at low health, then it should be ok. For the suggestion of the OP to return to the old scheme, I think it needs more thought. It is probably not the best just to go back to the old scheme as it is.
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Originally Posted by Forefinger_
Did your reading this thread make you decide to be rude?
I'll admit that I'm obviously in the minority here, and that most of you think it's a bad suggestion, but that means that it is just your opinions that it's a bad suggestion. I still maintain that it's a good suggestion. All you have to do is express your opinion of it, I don't see the need to be rude about any of this. |
Sorry, but no. I don't want to have to be beaten down to 1 HP just to be able to have maximum damage output.
This kind of bonus just gets an already squishy class killed far more often. Moreover, it severely hampers other teammates ability to support them, as you have this dichotomy between support classes trying to keep you alive and you running yourself ragged trying to "almost" die just for a few extra points of damage.
In short:
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Just as you're expressing your own (flawed) opinion that resurrecting Defiance 1.0 would be a Good Thing <TM>.|
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
This is all just your opinion as well.
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Starting a discussion on the boards and then dismissing people with "it's just your opinion" is about as productive (and mature) as slamming your own head in a door. Repeatedly.
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My Opinion;
HELL FREAKING /JRANGER NO!!
That is all.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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/disagree
I liked the old defiance.
I love the new.
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OK. Are you aware of the combat info monitor? If not, there's a quick "how to" link in my signature. Set it up with "Damage bonus" showing. |
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
Point taken, but this thread, as well as all our opinions are just that, our opinions. Several times recently I've been at the end of my health bar, about to die, on a lowbee blaster and I've come to miss the old defiance in those instances. The old version used to help me with killing the last of a mob as I'm about to die with some massive damage. I've never cared for the new version in comparison. But, that's just my opinion.
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Go fight things.
Now, old defiance didn't ramp up until you were fairly close to dying. If you played smart (IE, took as little damage as possible so you could *stay alive,*) or were on a team, you weren't getting any sort of a bonus at all. Sure, you got a big bonus - IF you could leverage it, IF you could stay alive long enough to use it, and IF the attack hit. And it was only useful IF you had an attack to take down everything in that mob that was killing you - it may be two or more enemies, they may be mezzing you (in which case Defiance 1.0 does you no good,) etc.
Current defiance? For every attack but your first, you're getting a bonus to damage. And it's stacking. You're hitting EVERY mob harder - not 400% harder on a single attack, no, but you're hitting every mob harder. And you're doing it from 100% health as well as 75, 50, 25, and 1%. Someone can heal you. You can take purples, keep your health (because the mobs are missing you) and still get the bonus. You can be mezzed, keep firing, and keep getting the bonus. And you can move to the next spawn, which is at full strength, and still have the bonus without their first shot killing you.
In short? You're missing one *big* orange number that used to mean you'd have to get killed. You're ignoring the bunch of smaller-but-getting-larger numbers you get without *having* to risk death. (Edit: It kind of reminds me of people who insist they have to have a "healer" and don't like other defenders. They like the big green numbers "saving" them, but don't get the bubbles or debuffs are preventing them from needing healing in the first place.)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
My Opinion;
HELL FREAKING /JRANGER NO!! That is all. |
You know that's a double-negative right there don't you?
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What does that make 'A big no-no' then? |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You know that's a double-negative right there don't you?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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*starts the countdown to this being modded to "I Don't Like That"*
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
My Opinion;
HELL FREAKING /JRANGER NO!! That is all. |
Try monitoring Damage Buff to see how each attack adds a buff, will definitely help you appreciate Defiance 2.0.
Returning to original defiance leaving my main (Lightslinger, Energy/Energy Blaster) helpless while stunned and removing my damage buff is one of the few things that would make me leave this game.
/unsigned
/dissign
/donotsign
/removesign
/throwsigninditch
Wouldn't be very helpful to those of us with blasters that rarely die.
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While playing on my high-level blaster (my main) I've noticed that I can kill Lieuts easily with my Tier 1 & 2 attacks, even while held, thanks to the 12.5% base damage boost and Defiance 2.0 stacking damage buff, whereas with Defiance 1.0 I was frequently dead myself and utterly unable to use any of that sweet, sweet 400% Damage buff because I was too busy cursing "HELD" on my screen and praying for a Break Free.
Do I like being able to solo Malta, now? Yes.
Did I avoid Malta like the plague, if I was solo, before Defiant 2.0? Yes.
Conclusion: Defiance 2.0 has widened my enjoyment of the game.
So, my response to this is (even at the risk of getting a telling off from the mods):
/jranger
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
The situation of finishing off that last foe with Old Defiance was great, but too situational. How many times when you're about to die that you only have one foe shooting at you?
It also encouraged Blasters to live on the edge purposely incurring low hp and thus making them more likely to die. Thus, it encouraged bad playstyle.
New Defiance has a Damage buff that relies on attacking, not incurring damage. That is better. New Defiance also has a partial mez workaround. That is better.
"Never attempt to balance mechanics through Role Playing."
Castle