I take back what I said.

Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean the player base as a whole does not enjoy it. You essentially offered the answer to your own conundrum (if you will) with this:

If you don't like the first WST, and don't want to play it, there's no one at fault here but you. You've even admitted it. If you ask me, by admitting that you won't do certain things "you don't like" then it doesn't really make sense to complain about them.

Next week's WST is the ITF. Do you play on Virtue? I'll help you get your Rare.

Unless you don't like the ITF. Then I can't help you.

There's something fundamentally disturbing when people use vernacular like "there's no-one at fault here but you" in response to my preferences in entertainment.

I furthermore think you're reading something other than what I said if you're inferring that I'm saying anything other than "I don't like this." I said as much before, I'm saying as much now, therefore I'm not going back on what I said. Accusing me of "complaining" or suggesting a "conundrum" where one doesn't exist just baffles me, and I'm not saying this to offend.

I refuse to be drawn into another Strike Pack flame war of semantics, armchair psychology and accusations. Please don't turn my opinion into one.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

It's a big difference - you can drop in and out of a raid without feeling you're letting down your team.

I'm going to be running the heck out of the ITF across all the servers next week, with the emphasis on helping those who don't team so often to get the Incarnate drops.

When I've seen a few posts by you that denounce the way the WST works as far as getting your Alpha Rare, and then see a post saying the current WST is one you don't want to run, I can't help but feel that there's a counterpoint to your own preferences. If you want the Rares but can't find time run the WST, okay. If you want the Rares but can't find a team to run the WST, okay.

If you want the Rares but you won't do the WST based solely on personal preference... then quite frankly, why even be vocal about how it works? I could understand if you don't have the time. I could understand if you can't find a team. I could understand if every time you asked to join a STF/LRSF someone hit you with a bat and pulled you into a burlap sack.

But I've watched you repeat how strongly you feel about the acquisition of Rares and how 19.5 is forcing teaming for reward, and now you say you're barring yourself from getting it because you don't like the current WST?

That's why I'm a little defensive about it. Incidentally, I got the same way when Vanden asked for Swift/Hurdle to be changed on his own personal preference.

One player's personal preference shouldn't be a benchmark for the rest of the players in the game unless the majority of them happen to agree for logical reasons. I'm sure if the playerbase told the Devs "We don't like the STF, so we won't participate" they'd reply with "Okay, uh, wait 'til next week when it changes."

And that bothers you how, exactly? Both people's vitriol and the way the system is set up have made it pretty evident to me that I do not want to participate. It's as simple as that. Unless you feel some compulsion to make me participate - in which you will fail - then it really shouldn't affect you. I don't like the system, and I'm done arguing and explaining why, so I'm leaving it at this. I didn't like the system when it was presented to me before, I don't like the system when I see it in-game now, and I'm fairly certain that I'll never like it in this incarnation. That is that.

However, you regard the system as though the only thing preventing people from running Task Forces is the lack of opportunity, when that isn't really the case. There are, in fact, people who simply do not like to run TFs if given the choice. This is not subject to debate any more than one can debate about the existence of people who like to make and play anthropomorphic characters. It's a simple fact.

It was made abundantly clear to me that I had to make my own choices, and this is what I chose. I intend to stick with it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I would really love to see a redname quote with this information. I'm betting you won't find one.

Or you know, do both. Like they've been doing since launch, and like just about every MMORPG does.

"Pack" already had a definition as a paid-for content patch - until I19.5 redefined it.

There have been no significant changes to any piece of content that I am aware of, excluding the Positron Task Force, since they introduced outdoor instances in I1 and ret-conned certain old missions to use the new outdoor maps

This is devolving into another semantics argument, and you are welcome to continue it without me. I've had quite enough of it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

The Praetorian story arc comes to mind, beyond that *shrug*.

More in terms of providing incentive for the content, two other incidents come to mind. There was the Invention system (Pool B, C, and D specifically come to mind), and the later change to the reward merit system. The later is quite arguable normalizing rewards across the platform. Semantics quite possibly, but an interesting distinction none-the-less.

All the same though, I don't those incidents are really relevant to your point anyway, and as such you'd prefer that they improve the old content instead of adding carrots to make people do them. Regardless of the when or why .

In my view, however, weekly raid targets such as the WSF are intended to encourage more pugging and also enable newer players to get into those groups easier to be able to 'catch up' as it were.

People who just don't want to run the WST based on like or dislike are not in the same boat as people who literally cannot find the time or teams to run it. One is a personal choice, the other is not. That's not an argument of semantics, whether you believe it to be or not.

You can run the WST, but because you are not a fan of the STF/LRSF, you won't.

Compare that to:

You want to run the WST, but because you have a newborn baby to care for/work a job with horrendous hours/work two jobs/have someone threatening you at gun point not to run the WST, you cannot.

Here's why I find it a little off-putting, Sam. I believe I clarified this in a previous post, even. You've adamantly spoken against the WST and 19.5's system in general, and at the time it very much felt like you were in the boat of "we can't run certain TFs due to out-of-game constraints." The moment the WST was announced you declared that you won't run it because you don't like it.

If it were a technical issue (which the mapserve level shift bug is), alright. If it were because your personal schedule can't allow for extended play time, fine. But you want the system to be different because you just don't like doing a select few TFs?

Understand that my argument has been "I like to TF but I don't have the time, so this system is not designed for me and people like me." Yours became "I don't want to TF at all, so the system is poorly designed." That has absolutely no bearing on how the system was designed, it's just your personal view.

That's why this is an issue for me, especially in a thread where I said I was wrong, apologized, and got off my duff and ran an LRSF.

Then you are mistaken, as I never implied I lacked the time, or indeed lacked the opportunity. What I said, if you insist on bringing this up, is that I lack PEOPLE I LIKE to run TFs with, which is an entirely different point. Furthermore, I exposited that I like to play at my own pace and not be bound to other people depending on me. I never said I was UNABLE to run TFs, only that I am UNWILLING to run TFs.

This is what I've been saying for six years, and this has not changed.

No, I don't, and I never said this. What I actually said is I want options. I have nothing against the WTF system, and have indeed spoken in favour of it, today even. I disagree with the Rare salvage being tied to it, but as I'm sure you'll remind me that's a placeholder for I20.

No, it didn't, and your habit of putting words in my mouth is becoming offputting. Would you kindly start using the forums' quote function that has back links to the source posts, please?

"The system" is what it is. Sideways of never having said it's "badly designed," I want - again - options. "Oh, but you'll have options, just wait until I20!" Yes, I know. We went over this. Over and over again. The result? "You don't have to use it."

Well, guess what - I choose not to use it. So what, exactly, is your problem? What would you have me do? Or say? Do you want me to say I like the system? Because that would be a lie. Do you want to make me run TFs and like them? Because you can't. Do you want to bar me from posting on the subject? You can try approaching the mods about that. What, exactly, are you achieving here?

You admitted you were wrong. I restated that I feel I was right. It seems relevant to me. Just because YOU changed your mind doesn't mean the rest of us did, and just because you changed your mind doesn't mean those of us who haven't are just going to say nothing.

I had intended to leave it at that, but you keep insisting on making an issue out of it. You don't get to blame JUST me for what comes of it.

*edit*
You know what's funny, in the abstract sense of the word? Every time I express my dislike for a new system, regardless of what or why that might be, people always seem to start queuing up to tell me that I'm wrong, and that I don't have the right to dislike it because my reasons are wrong or insufficient. And then they turn around and blame me for making a big issue. It never fails.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Wow it finally hit me.

Martyrs.

That's what all of these constant 'opinions' about the new WST amount to IMO. The cries of martyrs.

The WST vs. WTF thing also goes along way to showing me the maturity level of the posters on the topic as well.

Nalrok_AthZim, thanks for being rational.

Again, I'm having a hard time discerning sarcasm from actual intent.

Can I get clarification? :P

And do you know what constant putdowns by people like you amount to? Bullies. Let's just shut those people up, and maybe they'll go away. We don't want anyone speaking ill of things we like, now do we?

What's interesting to me is you call me a martyr when I've specifically said I made my choice, put my money where my mouth is and went about my business. I didn't ask for compassion, I didn't ask for understanding, I didn't ask for concessions.

I respect the OP for coming out and admitting he was wrong. I don't respect his subsequent attempts to shut down those who don't feel they were. I disrespect you for putting down other people so you can feel better about yourself.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

The world you live in must be marvelous!

Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong and somehow deficient as a human being

Just lovely

You only just noticed that?

The over-reaction to this from a few people is just too silly to take seriously - if they'd be less dramatic about it, they might seem more reasonable.

Having a weekly raid target that the hardcore need to do over and over just for the end reward also encourages speed running, which helps newer players about as much as PLing them does. It'll only get worse next week as some people start running with level shifts and those who need to "catch up" are left even further behind, to be killed by ambushes and all that stuff the Tank aggroed and ignored in the mad bull rush to the next objective.

You want their help on the hard part, keep them alive through the "easy" part. This message brought to you by the Conscientious Melee Campaign.

I thought next weeks WST is the Kahn TF. At least that's what it says in Announce.

Bad timing, then. I did a Khan TF with the Hamster I think either earlier this week or late last week. It was just as boring as I remembered it, but that's more a function of that particular TF than anything else.

So I assume that's Khan/Barakuda?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Completely serious. I am very glad you were able to find a good outcome for your misgivings about the new system.

As for a couple of the other replies to my post, I simply stated a couple of my opinions. If my expressing my opinions ruffles feathers, oh well.

I do not recall saying anything about anyones opinions being wrong in my post here. I think I said those opinions sounded like something a martyr would say and I made a reference to the maturity level of posters who would continue to use WTF instead of WST.

I live in the same world as the rest of the posters here. I simply have no issue with being blunt with my opinions.

If that colors me in a light that anyone does not like, oh well. I don't care what people think about me in the real world. Why on earth would I care about what some random folks on a gaming message board think of me?

Again, isn't ignoring logic and refusing to examine your own thoughts the mark of a lazy mind?

How boring it must be to always believe you're right as well

It's since been edited. When this first dropped it was ITF.

Pity, I was looking forward to another Romulus-smashing.

Oh well. Here's hoping I can get as lucky with the Khan/'Cuda as I did with the STF/LRSF.