City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Very Best Farmer?

-CosmicBlaze

By -CosmicBlaze,
Posted on: 2011-01-15 21:52 in Brutes

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
Ah, in the post you did with the image you mentioned being level 2 fighting level 3s so I figured you did this at +1x8 with bosses.
Sorry for the confusion. I was going back and forth between the two and maybe got my info mixed up. Most of the time I left it at +1, but towards the end of my run to 50 I upped it to +2. At +2 I found it to be a bit of a drag but I was still able to smack the bosses with spin assuming I was damage capped.

 

Posted

Can dm/fire really keep up with the damage of claws or ss? I know soul drain is a good buff, but rage seems much better and claws and ss have much better aoe damage. On my ss/fire I can keep up a chain of fire ball, foot stomp, burn, haymaker forever. Not to mention the recharge proc in foot stomp means that my damage buffs are up more often. Does the rage crash really hurt ss enough to where footstomp doesn't more than make up for it?

I understand that dm might add more survivabilty, but that isn't a factor when you get so many insps that you sit at defense cap the entire time not to mention all the greens and blues. I ran 5 or 6 +4x8 fire cyborg runs last night and didn't even use healing flames once.

 

Posted

For low level farms, I don't really think level makes a difference in xp/minute. If you're fighting +2s at level 1 you'll start missing a -lot- more (even with inspirations) which lowers your xp/min down to level 1 times.

I just finished leveling up a Claws/Fire to 50 in ten hours off of my map (#504915) which was set at level 1. That's ten hours including trips back and forth to spend tickets, craft IOs, and sell them. I'm also sitting at a healthy 1.2 billion inf from all of the drops, so I'm fairly satisfied.

Mine was a little faster than Neo's time, but the difference isn't big enough for me to attribute one being better than the other. I personally prefer the level 1 setup because it's a lot more mindless (half of the time I can just leave Spin on auto and browse the internet while everything dies).

Because this was decent inf, and I've wanted a DB brute for a while, I'm going to run it and time myself again to see how consistently fast this is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity View Post
Can dm/fire really keep up with the damage of claws or ss? I know soul drain is a good buff, but rage seems much better and claws and ss have much better aoe damage. On my ss/fire I can keep up a chain of fire ball, foot stomp, burn, haymaker forever. Not to mention the recharge proc in foot stomp means that my damage buffs are up more often. Does the rage crash really hurt ss enough to where footstomp doesn't more than make up for it?

I understand that dm might add more survivabilty, but that isn't a factor when you get so many insps that you sit at defense cap the entire time not to mention all the greens and blues. I ran 5 or 6 +4x8 fire cyborg runs last night and didn't even use healing flames once.
Can a Dark brute keep up with a Claws, or SS? No. No matter how many AoEs you grab from your epic, SS and Claws add one, or two via their primary. Dark doesn't get that luxury.

What about FU and Rage? BillZ did the testing and found FU to be prohibitive since it added redraw. Some SS farmers admitted they didn't even need Rage as they rather skipped the no dmg phase.

Dark/fire farms decent enough to no worry about it. It can be debated that's it's the better overall build anyway. SS/fire brutes are like Stone tanks. Sure they are the best at what they do, but the need for that level of performance is rather small. An SG mate actually deleted his Stone tank that he loved getting to 50 once he figured out he could make other tanks perform good enough for the same content without the drawbacks.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seril View Post
For low level farms, I don't really think level makes a difference in xp/minute. If you're fighting +2s at level 1 you'll start missing a -lot- more (even with inspirations) which lowers your xp/min down to level 1 times.
Anything beyond +1 if not +2 is merely proving you can do it, or PLing other people. Rewards/time is better done on lower diff settings.

 

Posted

This sounds amusing even as I write it but, arguments about aoe radius aside, why wouldn't Mace/Fire be a contender? No KB like in some Claws attacks, more farm-usable AOEs than either Claws or SS, can slot 2 +rech IOs in AOEs instead of the 1 SS does (cuz you aint slotting it in Hand Clap), and room for more Oblits.
Can someone (who is better than me) show me an optimized build/attack-chain for Mace/Fire (like BillZBubba does, arcana time, etc.) so I can objectively compare?
I know I must be 'wrong' since it IS Mace but, for the life of me, I can't see why farming wouldn't be a reason to roll a Mace (scary).

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarbingersGale View Post
This sounds amusing even as I write it but, arguments about aoe radius aside, why wouldn't Mace/Fire be a contender? No KB like in some Claws attacks, more farm-usable AOEs than either Claws or SS, can slot 2 +rech IOs in AOEs instead of the 1 SS does (cuz you aint slotting it in Hand Clap), and room for more Oblits.
Can someone (who is better than me) show me an optimized build/attack-chain for Mace/Fire (like BillZBubba does, arcana time, etc.) so I can objectively compare?
I know I must be 'wrong' since it IS Mace but, for the life of me, I can't see why farming wouldn't be a reason to roll a Mace (scary).
The biggest thing about claws/fire right now is the availability of spin at level 6 and running the lowbie AE missions. Mace can still be used but it'll be slow until you unlock Whirling Mace at 18. The AOE is the kicker for the low level map. I think dual blades and spine are the best for the lowbie map. You could use dark but shadow maul's only going to dish out cone damage.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMan View Post
The biggest thing about claws/fire right now is the availability of spin at level 6 and running the lowbie AE missions. Mace can still be used but it'll be slow until you unlock Whirling Mace at 18. The AOE is the kicker for the low level map. I think dual blades and spine are the best for the lowbie map. You could use dark but shadow maul's only going to dish out cone damage.
This. DB and Claws are king for the low level maps. SS is king of the higher stuff. */fire is going to work the best overall. Anything with a damage aura will work on a S/L level 2-3 map even if it's slower than Claws, or DB. You want to self PL a SS/elec? Make a level 2-3 S/L ambush farm and there you go. The beauty of a level 2-3 map is that you can build a normal non-farm build for it and it still works.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
This. DB and Claws are king for the low level maps. SS is king of the higher stuff. */fire is going to work the best overall. Anything with a damage aura will work on a S/L level 2-3 map even if it's slower than Claws, or DB. You want to self PL a SS/elec? Make a level 2-3 S/L ambush farm and there you go. The beauty of a level 2-3 map is that you can build a normal non-farm build for it and it still works.
*** All my statements reference Fiery Aura Brutes only ***

I understand the prevailing logic is that 'SS is king of the higher stuff'. I also understand why Claws and DB are good at the lowbie maps and are a smoother ride to 50. But, by my observation, Mace 'should' be just as good as Claws and DB on the way to 50 (the dmg auras do more dmg in 1-3 maps than the aoes do) and Mace should be close to SS at 50 due to more AOEs, more Oblits, more +Rech IOs, excetera.

The arguments for SS superiority I expect would be:
• The greater AOE radius on Foot Stomp.
• Rage.

My counter-points to those reasons would be:
• The greater radius just makes it 'easier' not 'better'. Foot Stomp still has a cap of 10.
• Rage is only helpful when below the damage-cap and is a hinderance when your at the damage-cap.

I'm looking for some logical/factual arguments as to why my assumptions are invalid.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarbingersGale View Post
*** All my statements reference Fiery Aura Brutes only ***

I understand the prevailing logic is that 'SS is king of the higher stuff'. I also understand why Claws and DB are good at the lowbie maps and are a smoother ride to 50. But, by my observation, Mace 'should' be just as good as Claws and DB on the way to 50 (the dmg auras do more dmg in 1-3 maps than the aoes do) and Mace should be close to SS at 50 due to more AOEs, more Oblits, more +Rech IOs, excetera.

The arguments for SS superiority I expect would be:
• The greater AOE radius on Foot Stomp.
• Rage.

My counter-points to those reasons would be:
• The greater radius just makes it 'easier' not 'better'. Foot Stomp still has a cap of 10.
• Rage is only helpful when below the damage-cap and is a hinderance when your at the damage-cap.

I'm looking for some logical/factual arguments as to why my assumptions are invalid.
The answer to this question is just a page down. Here is Bill's optimal attack chain comparison chart for SS and Claws:



Mace has two useful AoE powers that fit into a typical AoE chain just like Claws does. However, Eviscerate and Spin beat out Mace's parallels (Crowd Control and Whirling Mace respectively) in damage. The extra third of a second on Eviscerate's cast time does not give Mace the edge, given Eviscerate does roughly a third more damage than Crowd Control. Spin activates .16ish seconds faster than Whirling Mace and severely outclasses it in damage. Build Up won't make up for the gap in damage between the two power sets' attacks.

Mace does not beat out Claws or SS in damage. Is it a viable farmer? Of course.

(heck, you can just eyeball the bloody numbers in City of Data or Mids to see why Mace isn't better. But I figured you wouldn't accept that so I threw in some data)

Edit: Have you tried the lowbie map without an AoE? It gets painfully slow with just a damage aura once you stop stacking level up inspirations. An aura does 120ish damage every 14 seconds compared Spin's 78 damage every 14 seconds. 40% of your damage in the lowbie map comes from the AoE attack as a Claws brute.

 

Posted

Thanks for the input Seril.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seril View Post
Mace has two useful AoE powers that fit into a typical AoE chain just like Claws does. However, Eviscerate and Spin beat out Mace's parallels (Crowd Control and Whirling Mace respectively) in damage. The extra third of a second on Eviscerate's cast time does not give Mace the edge, given Eviscerate does roughly a third more damage than Crowd Control. Spin activates .16ish seconds faster than Whirling Mace and severely outclasses it in damage. Build Up won't make up for the gap in damage between the two power sets' attacks.
I just did a spreadsheet and agree with the above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seril View Post
Mace does not beat out Claws or SS in damage.
Based on my spreadsheet this is both true and false. Under optimal conditions (meaning hitting all targets of your AOE attacks and @ damage-cap) Mace would out-damage SS but Claws would still beat them both. If you adjust your targets-hit to reflect a more common result (as Bill has done with his Eviscerate numbers) Mace falls behind by around 100 dps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seril View Post
Have you tried the lowbie map without an AoE?
I have. It is slower. But if that was my sole worry I would only roll Claws/FA or DB/FA.

 

Posted

I've tried stone/fire and used a combo of fault + burn + Tremor + stone fist/stone mallet/heavy mallet/Seismic Smash for clean-up. I believe once you cross out ss/claws/db pretty much any melee can run for the money. I wished at times they would turn total focus into a PBAoE damage.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarbingersGale View Post
Based on my spreadsheet this is both true and false. Under optimal conditions (meaning hitting all targets of your AOE attacks and @ damage-cap) Mace would out-damage SS but Claws would still beat them both. If you adjust your targets-hit to reflect a more common result (as Bill has done with his Eviscerate numbers) Mace falls behind by around 100 dps.
Just remember when you are adding in epics Mace is going to have redraw to deal with. It's likely what makes Claws not beat out SS in high end builds. Not that you didn't.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
Just remember when you are adding in epics Mace is going to have redraw to deal with. It's likely what makes Claws not beat out SS in high end builds. Not that you didn't.
I did. But thanks for reminding me anyway!

The numbers are below. I put ** when I was hitting less than the target-cap for a power. If you were hitting all the targets possible @ the damage cap the order would be Claws > Mace > SS. If you modify the targets hit to reflect realistic expectations the order would be Claws > SS > Mace. I don't show it below but the magic number you need to pull ahead of SS on Mace is 8 out of 10 targets hit with Crowd Control.

Code:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
|           Power|       Footstomp|     Elec. Fence|         KO Blow|            Burn|  Ball Lightning|          Redraw|          Totals|             DPS|
|       Base Cast|           2.100|           1.170|           2.230|           2.030|           1.070|                |                |                |
|   Base Recharge|          20.000|          20.000|          25.000|          25.000|          32.000|                |                |                |
| Base Max. Targ.|          10.000|          10.000|           1.000|           5.000|          16.000|                |                |                |
|        Base Dam|          59.230|          33.360|         148.480|         103.441|          42.550|                |                |                |
|     Arcana Cast|           2.244|           1.320|           2.376|           2.244|           1.320|                |           9.504|                |
|   Adj. Recharge|           5.000|           5.000|           6.250|           6.250|           8.000|                |                |                |
| Adj. Max. Targ.|           9.000|           9.000|           1.000|           5.000|          15.000|                |                |                |
| Adj. Dam w/targ|         533.070|         300.240|         148.480|         517.205|         638.250|                |        2137.245|         224.878|
| Adj. Dmg. @ Cap|        4531.095|        2552.040|        1262.080|        4396.243|        5425.125|                |       18166.583|        1911.467|
|_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
|           Power|      Eviscerate|            Spin|     Elec. Fence|            Burn|  Ball Lightning|          Redraw|          Totals|             DPS|
|       Base Cast|           2.330|           2.500|           1.170|           2.030|           1.070|                |                |                |
|   Base Recharge|          12.000|          14.000|          20.000|          25.000|          32.000|                |                |                |
| Base Max. Targ.|           5.000|          10.000|          10.000|           5.000|          16.000|                |                |                |
|        Base Dam|          90.960|          78.830|          33.360|         103.441|          42.550|                |                |                |
|     Arcana Cast|           2.508|           2.640|           1.320|           2.244|           1.320|           0.630|          10.662|                |
|   Adj. Recharge|           3.000|           3.500|           5.000|           6.250|           8.000|                |                |                |
| Adj. Max. Targ.|        ** 3.000|           9.000|           9.000|           5.000|          15.000|                |                |                |
| Adj. Dam w/targ|         272.880|         709.470|         300.240|         517.205|         638.250|                |        2438.045|         228.667|
| Adj. Dmg. @ Cap|        2319.480|        6030.495|        2552.040|        4396.243|        5425.125|                |       20723.383|        1943.667|
|_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
|           Power|   Crowd Control|   Whirling Mace|     Elec. Fence|            Burn|  Ball Lightning|          Redraw|          Totals|             DPS|
|       Base Cast|           2.000|           2.670|           1.170|           2.030|           1.070|                |                |                |
|   Base Recharge|          12.000|          14.000|          20.000|          25.000|          32.000|                |                |                |
| Base Max. Targ.|          10.000|          10.000|          10.000|           5.000|          16.000|                |                |                |
|        Base Dam|          67.150|          46.710|          33.360|         103.441|          42.550|                |                |                |
|     Arcana Cast|           2.244|           2.904|           1.320|           2.244|           1.320|           0.630|          10.662|                |
|   Adj. Recharge|           3.000|           3.500|           5.000|           6.250|           8.000|                |                |                |
| Adj. Max. Targ.|        ** 6.000|           9.000|           9.000|           5.000|          15.000|                |                |                |
| Adj. Dam w/targ|         402.900|         420.390|         300.240|         517.205|         638.250|                |        2278.985|         213.748|
| Adj. Dmg. @ Cap|        3424.650|        3573.315|        2552.040|        4396.243|        5425.125|                |       19371.373|        1816.861|
|_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
|           Power|   Crowd Control|   Whirling Mace|     Elec. Fence|            Burn|  Ball Lightning|          Redraw|          Totals|             DPS|
|       Base Cast|           2.000|           2.670|           1.170|           2.030|           1.070|                |                |                |
|   Base Recharge|          12.000|          14.000|          20.000|          25.000|          32.000|                |                |                |
| Base Max. Targ.|          10.000|          10.000|          10.000|           5.000|          16.000|                |                |                |
|        Base Dam|          67.150|          46.710|          33.360|         103.441|          42.550|                |                |                |
|     Arcana Cast|           2.244|           2.904|           1.320|           2.244|           1.320|           0.630|          10.662|                |
|   Adj. Recharge|           3.000|           3.500|           5.000|           6.250|           8.000|                |                |                |
| Adj. Max. Targ.|           9.000|           9.000|           9.000|           5.000|          15.000|                |                |                |
| Adj. Dam w/targ|         604.350|         420.390|         300.240|         517.205|         638.250|                |        2480.435|         232.643|
| Adj. Dmg. @ Cap|        5136.975|        3573.315|        2552.040|        4396.243|        5425.125|                |       21083.698|        1977.462|
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Posted

Ok, wtf is with all these crap numbers!

On SS i have NEVER had a gap long enough to fit KoB when running with mu, at most haymaker makes it in there at the lowest of the low levels of +rech but for the most part there is always an AoE up.

For the love of god people >.<


But who knows, maybe these other chains for claws an mace are just has pathetic when it comes to demonstrating the true AoE potential of a set.

"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal

@Caucasiafro

 

Posted

Yeah, the problem you're having is that you're including KO blow when you shouldn't be.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity View Post
Yeah, the problem you're having is that you're including KO blow when you shouldn't be.
KO Blow still reigns as the filler attack no matter how much +recharge you have. Assuming perma-hasten levels with a T4 Spiritual Alpha, Ball Lightning is still going to hold your attack chain up. To have a flawless attack chain of Foot Stomp > Elec Fences > Ball Lightning > Burn, Ball Lightning needs to have a recharge of 6.5s or so. Assuming you build entirely for recharge speed on your SS/Fire (which isn't efficient in the first place on an SS/Fire) you won't be able to reach that amount of +recharge. A ST attack in the chain is inevitable.

KO Blow only has .7s more activation time than Haymaker and does more DPA than it. It's better to use that as your filler in the chain.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seril View Post
KO Blow still reigns as the filler attack no matter how much +recharge you have. Assuming perma-hasten levels with a T4 Spiritual Alpha, Ball Lightning is still going to hold your attack chain up. To have a flawless attack chain of Foot Stomp > Elec Fences > Ball Lightning > Burn, Ball Lightning needs to have a recharge of 6.5s or so. Assuming you build entirely for recharge speed on your SS/Fire (which isn't efficient in the first place on an SS/Fire) you won't be able to reach that amount of +recharge. A ST attack in the chain is inevitable.

KO Blow only has .7s more activation time than Haymaker and does more DPA than it. It's better to use that as your filler in the chain.
Thats just not true, i seem to always have an AoE up (every few missions there is a point where nothing is up though). For the love of god, didnt i just say that? I think people are forgetting about FF+rech with this math.

"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal

@Caucasiafro

 

Posted

Quickly glancing through the last few pages, the disconnect between these spreadsheet analysis and ingame reality is that while these numbers assume the damage cap, none of them include the time spent using inspirations or other click powers.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrawatt View Post
Thats just not true, i seem to always have an AoE up (every few missions there is a point where nothing is up though). For the love of god, didnt i just say that? I think people are forgetting about FF+rech with this math.
Could you make a short Youtube video of your SS/Fire brute doing the Foot Stomp? Elec Fences > Ball Lightning > Burn > repeat chain with no pauses, then? Or anyone, for that matter. If you actually can do it, this means the numbers everyone has been using are wrong and it bears further investigation. TBH, though, I won't believe it until I see a video proving it.

Quote:
Quickly glancing through the last few pages, the disconnect between these spreadsheet analysis and ingame reality is that while these numbers assume the damage cap, none of them include the time spent using inspirations or other click powers.
The numbers include average damage as well as the damage cap. That's the entire debate between Claws and SS (Claws outdamages SS at damage cap, SS outdamages Claws otherwise). Everyone uses inspirations, so including those numbers doesn't help for what we're doing (if we were trying to calculate the exact damage a set does, then yes, we would, but that's not what we're doing). SS clicking Rage every minute in a half isn't going to skew their damage much at all, so it's not worth including in the numbers.

 

Posted

You should not be using KO Blow while farming, if you're going for efficiency that is.

[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer View Post
You should not be using KO Blow while farming, if you're going for efficiency that is.
It's more damage than standing around with your thumb up your butt while everything's recharging.

 

Posted

I'll try to explain it in more detail.

Spamming a bind as fast as I can I can use about 4 inspirations per second. I'm tempted to assume it takes two server ticks (0.264s) to use an inspiration, but I like 4 per second, it's simple enough.

Damage cap is 775% (+675%). A typical brute is at 350% damage or so. (100% base + 95% enhancements + 150-160% from 75-80 Fury). That means you need to keep about 17 red insps (775 - 350 = 425, 425/25 = 17) on at all times to be damage capped. Inspirations have a duration of one minute. You're also likely to want one purple on at all times, the recharge tradeoffs to reach 45% defense to F/C are just too big, so I'm calling it 18 insps.

Basically, if you always use the right amount of inspirations with maximum efficiency, you spend about 4.5s per minute in inspiration use.

Throw in Hasten for a 0.924s cast every two minutes, or 0.462s per minute.

Throw in Fiery Embrace for another 0.924s cast, this time every 45 seconds, or 1.232s per minute.

Adding it up, you're already looking at 4.5 + 0.462 + 1.232 = 6.194s per minute, or 10.3% of the total time.

This is for the absolute best case scenario in which you'd never misuse inspirations, never have to reposition for optimal AOE usage, never have to click Healing Flames or Consume.
Actual experience leads me to believe such a scenario is unlikely to be found outside of theory, and seeing as 1/ I hardly found myself waiting for AOEs even though I should have a 0.7s to 2s gap (based if the FF proc is active or not) in my 7.1s chain 2/ my numbers were competitive with highend farmers who made their own numbers public, then I'm inclined to believe the actual time spent on misc stuff is generally much higher than 10%.

There are things that are hard to quantify, but if you don't quantify them all somehow, you can't have an accurate representation of performance. Claws doesn't outperform SS by (i.e., as shown by the quoted numbers) a solid 14%, in actual gameplay it's a close second.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrawatt View Post
K, working on the video...ill edit this post with a link. It's pretty crappy quality but i think it proves the point.

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xImwHwMV2qE
Pretty much this. I think people vastly underestimate how good the FF recharge proc is in footstomp.

Standing around with your thumb up your butt? When? I don't have time to hit KO blow even if I wanted to.