Questions about the Roy Cooling arc (spoilers)
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-10 01:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I agree with Bad here. I never understood the need to make the entire game, especially the LOW-LEVEL game so much harder as a general thing. Praetorian ambushes are absurd, and most Praetorian enemies feel like they were designed for the end game and just dropped in a much lower level range. Look at what low-level enemies had to use in the old game:|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
you might find this new world order great, I can tell you that had things been like this when I was new, I would not be here. Fun and frustration are not the same thing in my book. Waves of eight NPCs when one is struggling along with DOs are not enjoyable.
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Hellion and Skull minions have one melee attack and that's it. They do have a ranged one, which they rarely use. Hellion and Skull lieutenants have all of one ranged attack and that's it. Sure, their bosses are nasty, but you don't actually start seeing bosses until around level 10 or more. And you almost never see debuffs of any kind. Well, the PPD have debuffs, at least three energy attacks per minion and they spawn bosses a lot. Resistance have two ranged and one VERY STRONG melee attack.
What the hell? What happened to the concept of "power curve?" It's gotten to the point where I can't wait to get out of Praetoria so the game will stop being so brutally punishing. And it's not like these harder enemies give greater rewards, of course not! The Vahzilok have two melee and one ranged attack and they give massive rewards, but when the PPD and the Resistance have the same, they're treated like ordinary enemies. And this should not be the level of difficulty in the lower levels. Should not.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Somewhere in some dev's mind "we want more challenging end-game content" and "we like dynamic and interesting mission design" translates to "send wave after wave of enemies at us in every mission." Yes, a map full of enemies standing around waiting to be beaten up gets old. But so does wave after wave of enemies coming to you to get beaten up, when it's in every mission.
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And, really, why does "we want more challenging end game content" keep translating into "we'll give you more challenging LOW LEVEL content?" Did they not learn their lesson with the Hollows? It's painfully obvious that the Hollows was intended to be a much higher-level zone, likely 20-30 (hence why the leaders of the Outcasts and Trolls are there, and hence why the NPCs there had Fire Imps from the get go) that they dropped into a lower-level range, eventually having to redesign enemies, mission locations, outdoor spawns and amenities. So why do they keep making high-level content masquerading as low-level content? Or have the developers completely forgotten how to make low-level content at all?
And again, having specific more difficult challenges itself should not translate into raising the base difficulty of the game. Malta are hard, but you can still do things other than Malta. EVERYTHING in Praetoria is hard, and you have no option but to fight something hard. And like Malta, they don't give proportionate reward.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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...not to mention the annoying sound-effects for the Resistance guns.
"pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!"
"pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!"
"pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!"
"pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!"
"pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!"
"pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!"
And if you got the requisite ambush of eight all going "pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!" at you at once, of course this stupid sound-effect is eight times more annoying. When I enter Praetoria I turn my sound off. I am giving extremely serious thought to rerolling said controller Paragon-side, she is level 15 and I hate to delete her, but I am just sick and tired of this zone and all of the annoyances it represents. It is visually beautiful but I loathe every other thing about it.
I said "loathe." Yes, I hate it that much, and I hate the idea of Praetorian difficulty being 'ported to Paragon via these "new and improved" arcs. Roy Cooling can kiss my grits.
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My god, you know what this means? Paragon Studios also hired Zapp Brannigan in addition to Neuron!|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Somewhere in some dev's mind "we want more challenging end-game content" and "we like dynamic and interesting mission design" translates to "send wave after wave of enemies at us in every mission." Yes, a map full of enemies standing around waiting to be beaten up gets old. But so does wave after wave of enemies coming to you to get beaten up, when it's in every mission.
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But yes, I do agree with this. I tend to roll melee toons who can handle the ambush waves well enough, but I can sympathize with those who can't since I also tend to roll support classes (though in that case, I tend to never solo period).
I have to say that in all of the newer content, my favorite mission was the first mission from Cleopatra. she gives you profiles on various PPD officers suspected of corruption, then you go into the mission and- oh my god, YOU TALK TO EACH OF THEM and trick them outside so you can plant bugs in their desks!
Now i'm not saying this is how it should always be, but maybe we need a few more missions where we use our noggin and have to pay attention to what the NPCs say for a change instead of using it to come up with strategic ways to bash someone else's noggin in.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
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"pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!" "pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!" "pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!" "pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!" "pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!" "pooka-pooka-pooka-pooka!" ... |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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You can avoid a fight with Noble Savage too, if you make the right text choices.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'm not trying to be at all snarky but asking because I just played through this arc at x0 and don't recall.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
How in the name of flaming hell is my level 20 Controller supposed to defeat wave after wave of 8+ NPCs, all eight running at her at the same time? Does she have the endurance for that? Since she hasn't even hit SOs yet, you can guess the answer. And yes, she is heavily slotted for End, as are all smart Controllers.
Does she have the hit points to withstand hits from eight NPCs at once? Well, duh. This is on +0/0 by the way. |
When is there waves after wave of 8+ NPCs rushing you? The most I can think of are the waves of 3 NPCs when you finish the first arc and arrest the Family boss (except the waves are staggered), the Family attack on the police station (except they don't rush and force you to look around the station to find them), and a couple small 3 mob ambushes (the warehouse where you have the three SWAT guys helping and an ambush in the Sky Raider base).
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I am not sure exactly which mission it was, but it was near the end. The NPCs were not Family, they were PPD ["rogue" PPD?] and I don't know about you, I do not need multiple PPD Ghosts glue-trapping me at once. I just don't. |
Originally Posted by Jophiel
I'm not trying to be at all snarky but asking because I just played through this arc at x0 and don't recall.
When is there waves after wave of 8+ NPCs rushing you? The most I can think of are the waves of 3 NPCs when you finish the first arc and arrest the Family boss (except the waves are staggered), the Family attack on the police station (except they don't rush and force you to look around the station to find them), and a couple small 3 mob ambushes (the warehouse where you have the three SWAT guys helping and an ambush in the Sky Raider base). |
I was Hovering above them, looking down and counting 7-8 NPCs in one wave. If I managed to kill a few, another wave would come running up and etc. That is just too damn many for a solo level 20 troller on +0/0. A wave of three would have been fine, not FUN true eough, but fine. Eight is too damn many.
My level 15 +0/0 troller in Praetoria is having the exact same problem with ghouls and Resistance. Seriously, whose bright idea was this, anyways? Are there people who find this fun? I don't find facing level 50 threats at level 20 "fun." I don't have the enhancements or the slots to even be able to begin to deal with that sort of thing.
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Sounds like the ambush from the mission with the three NPC allies. I think. But that one spawned just three mobs for me.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I am not sure exactly which mission it was, but it was near the end. The NPCs were not Family, they were PPD and I don't know about you, I do not need multiple PPD Ghosts glue-trapping me at once. I just don't.
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There's the mission in the building where you then have to rescue the rogue agents but I don't remember that one having an ambush. I could be wrong. I can't believe that I'd forget multiple waves of 8 NPCs each. A bug perhaps?
I would say "bug" if it were not happening only in praetoria or in newly-added contact missions.
As it was, I got done with that mission after multiple trips to the hospital, called Cooling and got the next mission, hit "auto-complete" - because I had had enough of all that, I promise you - and I think that was the end of the arc. Thank you God! I then got out the scanner and returned to sanity.
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That mission doesn't have spawns of irregular size, but it has the tendency to stack multiple spawns on top of you between overlapping ambushes and regular spawns placed so close together you're just about guaranteed to get multiple aggro. And, yeah, the ambushes have the tendency to fall on you just as you're fighting something else.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I am not sure exactly which mission it was, but it was near the end. The NPCs were not Family, they were PPD ["rogue" PPD?] and I don't know about you, I do not need multiple PPD Ghosts glue-trapping me at once. I just don't.
I was Hovering above them, looking down and counting 7-8 NPCs in one wave. If I managed to kill a few, another wave would come running up and etc. That is just too damn many for a solo level 20 troller on +0/0. A wave of three would have been fine, not FUN true eough, but fine. Eight is too damn many. |
And thanks to Glue Grenade, Acid Mortar and Flashbang, your ability to kill things quickly is greatly diminished, meaning you're that much more likely to be beset with multiple spawns at the same time.
Suffice it to say that I do not like that mission. Why does it ALWAYS have to be ambushes? Seriously, developers, use another tool!
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
My level 15 +0/0 troller in Praetoria is having the exact same problem with ghouls and Resistance. Seriously, whose bright idea was this, anyways? Are there people who find this fun? I don't find facing level 50 threats at level 20 "fun." I don't have the enhancements or the slots to even be able to begin to deal with that sort of thing.
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Of course, the mission never fails, so you can just keep coming back and chipping away at the ambushes, but that makes it all that much more useless as a storytelling device.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Captian Castillo is Zapp Brannigan's great-great-great...........great-great-great-grandfather.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
My god, you know what this means? Paragon Studios also hired Zapp Brannigan in addition to Neuron!
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
I just spent the last hour "working" for Ashwin Lannister, a contact in Independence Port. This is what I did:
-- Say hello to Ashwin. He says hi back and sends me to talk to the mayor of Croatoa
-- Take the train to Croatoa and run to the mayor. He says "Hi".
-- Run back to Ashwin. Notice this didn't even give me token xp. At least now we can get going, right?
-- Take a train mission to a city map and rescue seven hostages from Council. They had different names so I couldn't just make a single target bind for them.
-- Head back to Ashwin. He needs me to run and talk to a guy outside Terra Volta
-- Run across I. Port to Terra Volta
-- Get told to enter TV and kill 35 Sky Raiders. I auto-completed this.
-- Run back across I. Port to Ashwin.
-- Ashwin says I need to talk to some Warrior guy and get him to turn himself in. Go to Talos Island and run across to the dock Alexander hangs out on
-- Alexander needs me to prove myself. I'm not sure why I can't just have Alexander "turn himself in" via violence but apparently as a hero I'm supposed to run errands for villains to convince them to turn themselves in nicely.
-- Alexander says I need to run in circles in I. Port. This will prove how strong I am or something. At the very least, it'll prove my patience.
-- I run to five different call boxes in I. Port, each one at least 700 yds from the next, some up to 1.5 miles.
-- Run back to Talos & back to Alexander
-- Alexander is so impressed by my ability to run in circles that he thinks I'm ready to test myself for real. So he needs me to take out 35 gray con Family members in I. Port.
-- Head back to I. Port. Run around beating up gray con minions.
-- After the last Family guy, I stop and eat some food (the player, not the character). Partway through, some Warriors come running by and attack me (the character, not the player). I'm not sure how that ambush was supposed to work if I had actually trotted back to the train after the last guy but whatever...
-- Hump back to Talos. Alex needs me to go to Atlas Park to beat someone up.
So, after an hour, I have defeated about 25-35 Council members, skipped 35 Sky Raiders and defeated 35 no xp gray con Family. Makes me miss Rogue PPD, constant ambushes and a visit from Castillo every twenty minutes. No wonder people play the new arcs and sing their praises no matter how many plot holes the story has.
(Edit: Just entered the Warehouse. Defeat All. Awesome.)
My own question about Roy Cooling.
Who in the name of all things ambush thought it was a good idea to not only abuse that mechanic in the arc. But then thought it would be a good idea to put as the final ambush an ELITE BLEEPING BLANKITY BLANKING ZEUS TITAN!?!
Yeah, not only a level 50 mob in a level 20 mission, but an EB version too? When that jumped me after blowing all my insps on callisto, and perma held me to death with gas missiles I just sat there for a moment, thought about it, then hit auto complete.
Last time I ever do that worthless arc.
Regarding the going rogue problems too. Would it be fair you think Sam to call Roy cooling everything we hate about praetoria in a single handy arc?
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Well... Not entirely. At least Praetorian content makes sense and is well-written in terms of story. I can take those plotlines outside the context of the game and I'd still love most of them, the Power arcs in particular. But Roy Cooling's "story" is just a paper thin excuse to just go kill stuff.|
Originally Posted by Dragonkat
Regarding the going rogue problems too. Would it be fair you think Sam to call Roy cooling everything we hate about praetoria in a single handy arc?
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In fact, it reminds me of the first mission I ever did in Lineage II. The local blacksmith had me go out near the river and kill giant frogs to look for iron ore. Yes, seriously. It seemed that the caravan carrying his ore somehow tipped over into the river and giant frogs ate the ore for... Some reason.
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sending the Zeus at you right after the fight with Castillo did seem pretty brutal... especially since Castillo kept running away, so by time I was finished with him, I'd pretty much used up all of my inspirations. I just barely survived the Zeus, and that only because I thought to fly away and use Rest somewhere it would have trouble climbing to. And that was on a Scrapper, so without mezz protection, I would have been double-hosed. I can definitely see how it'd be a major road block to some characters... not a mission I'd want to try on, say, an AR/Psi Blaster, I expect.
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Originally Posted by Dragonkat
My own question about Roy Cooling.
Who in the name of all things ambush thought it was a good idea to not only abuse that mechanic in the arc. But then thought it would be a good idea to put as the final ambush an ELITE BLEEPING BLANKITY BLANKING ZEUS TITAN!?! Yeah, not only a level 50 mob in a level 20 mission, but an EB version too? When that jumped me after blowing all my insps on callisto, and perma held me to death with gas missiles I just sat there for a moment, thought about it, then hit auto complete. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Agree about the story arcs and the writing, the power arcs are what the writing in CoV SHOULD have been from the very start, not basically just slightly more bad guy revamps of the coh writing where you never feel truly like a bad guy. Aka the big reason i never play redside, and love i can take cov AT's into paragon now.
But all the decent writing in the world won't make me go back into that ambush overkill, after i saw the all the arcs I'm pretty much done with Prae.
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You mean I missed this by auto-completing the last mish before I ever went in...?! YAY, ME! Every now and then I do something smart, and this was one of the times. Whee! Drudgery and pain avoided! |
Originally Posted by Dragonkat
My own question about Roy Cooling.
Who in the name of all things ambush thought it was a good idea to not only abuse that mechanic in the arc. But then thought it would be a good idea to put as the final ambush an ELITE BLEEPING BLANKITY BLANKING ZEUS TITAN!?! Yeah, not only a level 50 mob in a level 20 mission, but an EB version too? When that jumped me after blowing all my insps on callisto, and perma held me to death with gas missiles I just sat there for a moment, thought about it, then hit auto complete. Last time I ever do that worthless arc. Regarding the going rogue problems too. Would it be fair you think Sam to call Roy cooling everything we hate about praetoria in a single handy arc? |
I can imaginethebeating my little level 20 Fire/bubbler 'troller would have taken in there, yay for narrow escapes. She didnt have SOs then [she's level 22 now, but back then....] so Char DEFINITELY would have missed and then... how. about. no.
It would be helpful if Cooling came after the Nance arc so you were at least guaranteed the option of Nance's help. Or if it was just set a couple levels later so you decided to either take or skip Nance's arc. As is, you get the choice to do either at lvl 20 without having any idea of how Cooling's arc will end.
Of course, Nance manages to get himself killed easily enough in my experience. When I ran it on my DP/Traps Corr, I just cleared out the entire base and then went back to call Nance exclusively for the final Castillo/Titan fight where he provided some helpful firepower. Even then, the Titan fell off the platform and Nance jumped after it while I rolled my eyes and did the newspaper emote as I waited for the Titan to come back upstairs and finish.
Oh don't even get me started on the new tendency, starting with Praetoria, to bring in long, drawn out EB fights. Again, complete reading comprehension failure.
Players: We want more interesting AV mechanics than the old tank-and-spank. AVs are a pushover for a halfway decent team.
Devs: Ok...but rather than reserve these new mechanics for high-level team content, we'll put them into whatever new content we're working on, which just happens to be low-level, so deal.
Never mind that low-level characters often don't have the tools to deal with an "interesting" fight, and don't have the inspiration tray to deal with a drawn-out fight, it's the level range they're writing for, so they'll shoehorn in whatever ideas they had, whether they're suited for the level range or not.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Doesn't Battle Maiden count as a high level AV? |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Players: We want more interesting AV mechanics than the old tank-and-spank. AVs are a pushover for a halfway decent team.
Devs: Ok...but rather than reserve these new mechanics for high-level team content, we'll put them into whatever new content we're working on, which just happens to be low-level, so deal. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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They give you a couple interesting tools -- calling upon an old contact and hijacking a Sky Raiders shield generator -- but unfortunately it's too easy to either not be able to access them (Nance) or lose them (shield) before even reaching the platform.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Never mind that low-level characters often don't have the tools to deal with an "interesting" fight
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Killer ambushes are the dev team's new hammer, and everything looks like a nail.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Way to totally make yet another irrelevant post.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Doesn't Battle Maiden count as a high level AV?
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
They give you a couple interesting tools -- calling upon an old contact and hijacking a Sky Raiders shield generator -- but unfortunately it's too easy to either not be able to access them (Nance) or lose them (shield) before even reaching the platform.
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Nance would make perfect sense if he introduced you to Roy Cooling, so everyone had him as a contact (except people running the arc through Ouroboros of course), but still suffers the problem of NPC allies being dumb as bricks and not so useful because of it.
(By the way, I finished this arc with no allies and no problems when I ran it with my squishy Blaster, although admittedly she was a heavily IOd 50. I don't see myself running it with a character that doesn't care about the badges. PPD are the opposite of fun at these levels, as are Zeus Titans and EB fights that drag out until you're all out of inspirations.)
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Yeah, it's about halfway through the Sky Raiders "tunnels". You defeat a jump bot in an alcove and a SR shield generator attaches itself to you. Unfortunately, if it's defeated, it's gone for good.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
There's a shield generator? I didn't find a shield generator. And even if I had, any traps player can tell you they don't last long against a Titan, since they like to hug you and get asploded by AoEs.
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The first time I did it, it was on a Bots/FF MM and I didn't know how to contact Nance and have no idea what became of the generator. Probably got hung up in the architecture and left behind.
The second time (KM/SR Scrapper), I ran by a side room without clearing it. Nance decided to be a hero and go solo it and my generator followed him instead. By the time I realized I left them behind, they were both dead. This goes back to your "dumb as bricks" comment.
The third time (DP/Traps Corr), I had double force fieldy goodness and Nance for my Titan fight and did it without much trouble... even with Nance taking a suicide plunge after the Titan.
I didn't have a serious problem with it any of those three times. The MM was annoyed by the PPD until I learned to just Teleport Other the glue & flashbang guys to me and let them get bot-crushed before they could react. The Scrapper laughed off the glue patches (Quickness) and ate three purples for the Titan fight (Castillo is a wuss). The Corruptor managed to just plow through everything. I'll probably run my next level appropriate character through it as well. I don't doubt it's difficult for some characters but I personally haven't had a problem with it.
I have to wonder if new content is being designed around the idea of heroes being much more powerful than they used to due to IO's.
I.E. balancing around IO's.
That or balancing around the idea everyones playing a scrapper or brute.
I am even fine with waves of running ambushing NPCs, what I question is EIGHT AT ONCE?!!
If I brought a team it would be what, 30 at once? Same difference.
I don't like this new dev-mindset, so Roy Cooling has seen the last of my characters. When I get my elec troller out of Praetoria, it has seen the last of me too, except for people hunting exploration badges.