Umm... Warshades have mezes that actualy match allowing you to stun more then minions or just one LT witch is the the PB's highst possible mez with the total focus knock off.... which wouldn't be so bad if it were a stun like total focus... then... then you could at least stun one boss by coupleling it with the Clap to get ahead of him/her/it (damage and fx wise). It's why my PB is I think 32.. .34... and I have no desire to even try going higher. Late game bosses are just too tough and 'Hard HP and FX wize' to piddle arround with trying to take them out with a "moderate" damage toon.
It makes me feel like I'm playing my ancient FF/Dark blast defender before EPIC pools existed. It's hilarious actually how that character became possible to solo his own post 41 up missions again the moment he was able to pretend to be a poor mans version of a mind controller and take DOMINATE... PB's and Warshades don't get access to any Epics or Patrons to fill such holes. Warshades do not have this hole. PB's do... and in spades.
You have to be teamed or be IO set bonused up whazoo; possitional defences or leathal smash or something to get by... That or be Absolute Awesome Captain Twitchie Reflexes McBlapper with your PB to deal with them.
It's sobering to say the least. My first Epic was a PB once with the help of Dominate and Fire Imp army controller teamates I was able to push the FF/Dark to 50. Being the old level needed to unlock them. It seemed awesome early with the blappy punches and the squid and then the cool looking lobster and then the 30's hit and it began to feel like the pre Mind Epic FF/Dark again... So I put Mr. PB on hold and tried a debuffing defender. My first Dark Miasma toon. Dark/Elec. Not even the most ideal blast for a Defender's anemic damage rating... but you know what? Reguardless it felt AWESOME by comparison. It was like night an bloody day.
Then I made a scrapper and a blaster that had some nice controls plus damage and then an Illusion/Storm controller and eventualy a warshade and I began to learn to read what the powersets actualy offered super carefully... to be sure mezzes matched or like ice blasts first hold or elec's are easily stackable by themselves, and I learned what EPIC realy means in this game. Then Brutes and Cor's came with the Red side goign live and I found my two fav classes. Then Doms went from OK to awesome sauce. Then the VEATS. Putting the PB's to absolute shame except I daresay for early level (first 2 zones) PVP I gotta say PB's not too shabby there if you keep your wits about you.
However by and large, you wind up playing a PB for the same reason I play my DP/Dark cor more then the Fire/Dark one, both of which I love but I like the DP look and feel a tigdge more, for the smexy animations. PB's do "LOOK" cool. However, unless you can afford to super slot it or have Gamer Godling reflexes/tactics I can see you just being fustrated in the late game.
For those of you who will reply PB's are fine. I will counter It isn't the PB it's YOU. Your awesome. (points finger) Not the AT. Personal opinion of course. I think one that is correct. Which is a shame. I'd love to take my PB out of mothballs.
Anyway... good luck. I tip my hat to you for runnin' your PB again. I just wish I could feel remotely inspired and safe to bother leveling mine.
Maybe if PB's and War's (not that they need it at all) had the same Epic and patron choices as a Defender/Cor life for the PB would be better. I mean... they're honestly not that different except the shift to tank or squid blaster... which would shut you out of human form Epic's anyway. Perhaps Controller Epics for Warshades sice they already control decently... I don't know. (shrug)
Just a thought. Sure wouldn't be game breaking save perhaps PSI epic pool Warshades. Warshades are Epic already. Would be damn fun if you ask me.
Happy New Year!
Don't know if it'll help you or not, but - *points at sig* Ran through "raising a peacebringer" not too long ago.
I have two of 'em at 50, one 'shade at 50. I like them both. The thing with Peacebringers is that they're completely self-contained. To really get a 'shade shining, you need the environment - bodies to buff and heal from, preferrably in at least two forms. A PB, you get smaller buffs/heals/etc because it's completely *you.* You can heal in the middle of a giant mob or heal just floating in midair for the same amount. Your build up will always be the same. Your rez you can do whether something's there or not. You don't lose strength in a longer fight (say, against a tougher EB/AV) because you don't lack your "buff source." While you don't get an end *recovery* power, you get an End *discount* power, and so forth.
Peacebringers are more 'reliable' - you always have the same stuff available. Warshades have higher highs and lower lows.
But I *do* wish they'd do something about photon seekers.
I did read your guide, yes, and it seemed to mostly bear out what I was thinking. I guess the problem is I've seen the Warshade higher highs but I haven't really seen their lower lows.
Both squiddies hover blasting in an extended fight do the roughly the same thing - the Peacebringer has a few heals to use and can do so while hovering safely out of reach, the warshade has to fly around a corner for a second to land and use aid self. Dwarf is really no contest - the PB has a stronger heal, but the Warshades is also a potent and much needed third single target attack - both of their AoEs are a little anemic in damage but the shades adds nearly a Double Origin in damage for each target it hits where the PB knocks things down.
I think I'll try a 'mostly human/dwarf if I must' build for my peacebringer and leave the tri-form stance dance to the Warshade. PB melee attacks are very pretty at least and hover blasting with those resistance shields and heals might just be the difference I'm looking for.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
The problem with Peacebringers, in my opinion, is that compared to Warshades they've got LOUSY synergies. Warshades "add up" to be more than the sum of their parts rather successfully ... but Peacebringers "don't do that" in multiple ways. 
- Eclipse is a click power which doesn't lock out Forms.
- Light Form is a click power which DOES lock out Forms. Peacebringer loses synergy.
- Gravitic Emanation and Inky Aspect can be stacked to provide reliable Stun Mag 3+2.
- Pulsar can either self-stack (with Hastened Recharge and heavy slotting!) or sync up with the Pounding Slugfest proc slotted into Radiant Strike or Dwarf Melee attacks. Peacebringer offers lousy (self-)synergy for Stuns.
- Gravimetric Snare is a Ranged DoT Immobilize on a 4 second Recharge timer, which is useful beyond mere damage. Gravimetric Snare and Ebon Eye make for a very good (ranged) single target attack chain.
- Radiant Strike is a Melee KB Defense Debuff Attack on a 10 second Recharge timer, which IS NOT useful aside from pure damage (and which makes you chase down whatever you hit). Radiant Strike is very difficult to work into ANY useful attack chain, whether at range or at melee distances, due to its punitively long Recharge time and Melee Only range. Peacebringer LOSES.
- Black Dwarf can Mire for both PBAoE Damage and +Damage Buff every 20 seconds (often Hastened down to 10 seconds or less).
- White Dwarf can Flare for PBAoE Damage every 16 seconds (often Hastened down to 8 or less seconds), but can't get +Damage outside of Build Up (Human Form). Peacebringer pays higher Endurance Cost (over time) for less Damage throughput and reduced synergies, in comparison.
- Stygian Circle both Heals and Recovers Endurance.
- Conserve Energy only discounts Endurance Cost, but doesn't increase Regeneration ... presumably because Essence Boost is increasing Regeneration (by increasing HP). Peacebringer loses by comparison in all situations that are not AV Fights (ie. 99% of the game).
- Dark Extraction offers Pets which STICK AROUND for 200 seconds, dish out A LOT of damage over time FROM RANGE, and which can be stacked up to three times with enough +Recharge on a 240 second Recharge time.
- Photon Seekers are One And Done melee range self destruct package(s), which only stick around for 60 seconds after casting (if they can't figure out what to blow themselves up on), and have a 300 second Recharge time. Woefully pathetic by comparison for the Peacebringer. Winter Lord Northern Lights (blue Wisps with Peacebringer blast powers) are way more useful. Peacebringers LOSE ... BADLY ... by comparison.
- Medicine Pool: Aid Self is on a 20 seconds Recharge timer and offers Stun resistance.
- Reform Essence and White Dwarf Sublimation are on 60 second Recharge timers. Neither offers any Stun resistance, or indeed any Mez Resistance of any kind. Peacebringer loses (versus a Pool Power!) due to excessively punitive recharge times on self healing powers which don't even offer ANY Mez Resistance (not to be confused with -Mag Mez Protection). It would be beyond nice if Reform Essence and White Dwarf Sublimation offered +100% Resistance to all Mez Effects (thereby shortening their duration) for 20-30 seconds (does not self-stack) ... but NOoooo ... Peacebringers aren't allowed to have Nice Things(tm) that could save them from Debt ...
- Warshades get Orbiting Death, which can be supercharged by their Sunless Mire into becoming a serious PBAoE Damage Toggle that dishes out a LOT of Damage for very little Endurance Cost, and which synergizes very nicely with Inky Aspect.
- Peacebringers get Solar Flare, which can't be used while Flying (even though they can natively Fly in Human Form!), which is a Click, and which knocks everything out of the Area of Effect (and away from any Melee Teammates, to their extreme annoyance), making sustained Damage throughput like with Orbiting Death an impossibility. Peacebringers LOSE by comparison ... BIG TIME.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Going to touch on one or two of these.
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True. However, Light Form lasts longer, and does the exact same thing every time - you're not getting a "wasted" Eclipse because only one enemy got hit. |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
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And, in a sort of "glass half full/half empty" point, it doesn't matter as much that it locks out forms, as a Peacebringer without dwarf isn't losing out on a potential buff the way a 'shade without the second Mire is.
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Knockback takes someone willing to use it properly. Longstanding argument everywhere. And the KB you get in human form helps keep you *alive,* after all - if an enemy's away from you (and you DO get ranged attacks, don't forget,) and getting up off their butt for several seconds, it's a set of free attacks for you, or a moment to hit your heal/greens/etc.
Ok, I retooled to drop Nova and go human/dwarf focusing on the 'Self reliant' hook. Slots are tight but I'm not doing TOO badly. I can't wait for the 30s, though, to add a few more slots to things that could really use it. Like stamina. Gah. Blue bar go down the ho-ole....
I think it did the trick. Now they play nothing alike so there's nothing for my brain to be comparing. I put Radiant Strike on auto, blast a target until it gets up to me, send it sprawling, and then blast it some more - kind of like my sonic/em blaster if power thrust did serious damage -and if their return fire was being resisted by 22 to 42%. For fun I herded up 8 or so even con Cage Consortium guards in dwarf form in a tip mission and crushed them effortlessly. I can work with that.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
The only melee attack I used was Incadescant, which I just loved so much. It's an awesome opener and can take most bosses out of the fight while I wipe up the minions.
I love the self reliant feel of the PB and really enjoy not having to rely on forms or mobs anymore. And when it's down to a 1v1 with a boss/EB/AV then I find it so much easier on my PB.
Haven't played my WS since.
Why is it that the biggest haters of PBs seem to be the warshade players? How about a little solidarity from our Kheldian brothers and sisters huh? We are all in the same squiddy boat together people.
I wish my Peacebringer was as effective, overall, as a Warshade.
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Forget comparing to my MFing Warshade; I wish there was something my Peacebringer could do that my Rad/NRG blaster couldn't.
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
I wish my Peacebringer was as effective, overall, as a Warshade.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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I've never seen it so much as a case of 'shades hating on 'bringers so much as fans of an entire archetype wanting more for their fellow kheld drivers on the light side.|
Originally Posted by Griff Mender
Why is it that the biggest haters of PBs seem to be the warshade players? How about a little solidarity from our Kheldian brothers and sisters huh? We are all in the same squiddy boat together people.
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The more comparisons Warshade players draw between Peacebringers and Warshades, the happier I am.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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- Switch into a tank form|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Forget comparing to my MFing Warshade; I wish there was something my Peacebringer could do that my Rad/NRG blaster couldn't.
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- Not burn power picks on resistance (and get resistance to more than just S/L)
- Debuff defense with every single attack
- Buff their own HP
- Self heal without going into a power pool
- Get a "Godmode" in Light Form and stand toe to toe with tough foes
... just off the top of my head. Wish granted.
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... and lose all my offensive abilities? No thanks, I'm just as survivable with a defense shield from my epic, hover blasting away, tough and weave still toggled on.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
- Switch into a tank form
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
- Not burn power picks on resistance (and get resistance to more than just S/L)
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
- Debuff defense with every single attack
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
- Buff their own HP
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
- Self heal without going into a power pool
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
- Get a "Godmode" in Light Form and stand toe to toe with tough foes.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Bill, I too am a huge fan of Peacebringers, and in fact prefer them over Warshades, but I have to disagree with some of the points you made. Light form might have the longer duration, but it has an exponetially longer recharge AND a crash. Eclipse can be made perma.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
True. However, Light Form lasts longer, and does the exact same thing every time - you're not getting a "wasted" Eclipse because only one enemy got hit.
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And saying that you've got the chance to get a "wasted" Eclipse because only one enemy got hit is misleading. Eclipse, if used correctly, is fired off before any of the spawn is dead. I suppose you could argue that Eclipse could miss its accuracy check, but when has anything been difficult to hit in this game? If you're having a hard time hitting with Eclipse (which has the same base accuracy as most of your attacks), you'll have a hard time hitting at all, and survival becomes a moot point.
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| And, in a sort of "glass half full/half empty" point, it doesn't matter as much that it locks out forms, as a Peacebringer without dwarf isn't losing out on a potential buff the way a 'shade without the second Mire is. |
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| But, again, can do so without requiring bodies, can do so with the same effect every single time - and I'd argue that you're not particularly losing. It's a matter of adjusting endurance before or after a fight. A Warshade's SC is just more visible. |
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| Yeah. Not arguing this at all. Photon Seekers have needed love for a long time. They had the AI looked at at one point, but... yeah, they need help. |
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| Knockback takes someone willing to use it properly. Longstanding argument everywhere. And the KB you get in human form helps keep you *alive,* after all - if an enemy's away from you (and you DO get ranged attacks, don't forget,) and getting up off their butt for several seconds, it's a set of free attacks for you, or a moment to hit your heal/greens/etc. |
It's not that Peacebringers get less, it's that the game engine doesn't value what Peacebringers can do. In other words, like stalkers, Peacebringers' problems in this area are more systemic in nature, and I'm not looking for any change here any time soon.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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You get dwarf earlier, and if you've got tough and weave toggled on, you're burning more END. Plus none of those give you mez protection. Or teleport (aka "immoblize? Caltrops? What are those?") |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
... and lose all my offensive abilities? No thanks, I'm just as survivable with a defense shield from my epic, hover blasting away, tough and weave still toggled on.
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| Any resistance a Peacebringer gets burns a power pick, in fact, several to get all the resistances. Even Dwarf is a power pick. I've discussed Dwarf already, so I'll say that I'd rather take a S/L defensive shield (which, thanks to defense mechanics, protects against more than just S/L) that has cold resistance, and only run the cost of one toggle. |
To protect against more than just S/L, the attack has to have that component in. Yes, many do. Not all. And those that don't have an S/L component to the attacks are not exotic - several Rikti blasts, for instance, are pure energy. (Which, of course, PBs have an innate resist to - without burning a power pick - and can buff further *with* another power pick.)
Not to mention you don't get that shield until your 40s. AND you have to pick the "right" APP (Cold, or Mace if you want to switch sides, run the patron arc and get that PPP) to get it - which locks you out of something else a PB can get natively, a self-rez.
Also, you're getting one resistance natively (well, two - en/NE) as a PB (or a 'shade) and building up from that, as opposed to starting with nothing.
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| I mentioned rad blast, but I guess my melee attacks don't debuff defense. That's still not a point in favor of the Peacebringer, because we all slot accuracy to the 95% tohit cap, and Achilles Heel procs do not stack at all. |
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| Hoarfrost. |
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| Hibernate or Hoarfrost. Thanks to a defensive shield, Aid Self works very well. Power pool or not, it's still something my Rad/NRG can do. |
And, yet again - you *must* pick one specific APP, and even then you get that power in your 40s (44 for Hoarfrost, 47 for Hibernate.) AND even with your DEF shield, something can get through - I can use Reform Essence while standing on caltrops. You can't.
Plus, neither of those is a self heal. I'm talking specifically Reform Essence.
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| Force of Nature if I wanted a buff that leaves me useless when it drops. Hibernate, though, is just as nice. |
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And if you need it back up when you're fighting a single enemy? Even in the "MFing Warshade" guide, what's the suggestion - "Try to keep some enemies alive so you can go back and buff." A PB doesn't have to do that. If it's down to just, say, myself and an EB/AV, I can still pop Light Form and have it working at full strength. If a 'shade does that, they get... one enemy to buff from, leaving a very weak eclipse (how many teams leave a spawn standing just for a warshade? And don't forget, you'll be aggroing that spawn as well.) Thus the "wasted" Eclipse. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Bill, I too am a huge fan of Peacebringers, and in fact prefer them over Warshades, but I have to disagree with some of the points you made. Light form might have the longer duration, but it has an exponetially longer recharge AND a crash. Eclipse can be made perma.
And saying that you've got the chance to get a "wasted" Eclipse because only one enemy got hit is misleading. Eclipse, if used correctly, is fired off before any of the spawn is dead. I suppose you could argue that Eclipse could miss its accuracy check, but when has anything been difficult to hit in this game? If you're having a hard time hitting with Eclipse (which has the same base accuracy as most of your attacks), you'll have a hard time hitting at all, and survival becomes a moot point. |
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| I agree whole heartedly that the powers being compared are fairly equal in terms of utility - although I might point out that Stygian Circle requires only one power selection - but I've never bought the whole "the body requirement is its drawback" argument. When have bodies been hard to make in this game? |
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| I agree that it takes someone willing to use it properly, and I'd go on to say that using it properly isn't exactly a hard thing to learn. But I would never go so far as to say it is in any way the equal of the mitigation that Warshades get. Warshades get persistent damage and stuns with the occasional hold, and every attack carries a slow and is of an exotic damage type. Peacebringers get an occasional hold and an occasional stun, and half of the damage from their attacks is one of the most heavily resisted types in the game. I'm not even going to count the defense debuffs each attack does. Accuracy-based defense debuffs as a secondary effect are a joke for anyone but a mastermind who can control the accuracy slotting of their pets. |
As far as slows vs knockback, there's going to be tradeoffs there regardless. Both can do them to *most* groups - and then they'll hit others where that may as not even exist (ooh, look, war wolves!) It's one of the nice things about running a mixed Kheld team - something that's a problem for one is not a big deal for the other.
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I mention Achilles Heel because it's one of the only good things about -def, it allows you to slot an awesome proc. Otherwise, with how easy it is to hit things in this game and how trivial it is to cap accuracy, -def that requires a tohit check to begin with is useless.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... what does Achilles Heel have to do with anything?
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Of course, you're also talking about comparing "your" blaster - which has cold, so FON isn't even a consideration for you.
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The point isn't what level I can do things. The fact is: Everything the peacebringer can do, the blaster can too, all while dealing absurdly larger amounts of damage.
The only valid difference I can think of is that Peacebringers get an AoE control. To counter that, I can actually stack stuns on the bosses, and wipe out the minions in two attacks that the PB could control.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And if you need it back up when you're fighting a single enemy? Even in the "MFing Warshade" guide, what's the suggestion - "Try to keep some enemies alive so you can go back and buff."
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
A PB doesn't have to do that. If it's down to just, say, myself and an EB/AV, I can still pop Light Form and have it working at full strength.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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If that were the case, why bother playing, just PL up to 50 and stay there. The point for me (one of them, at least) is that I *can* do these things - and do them earlier, without having to look outside of my primary/secondary. I can use them as part of my playstyle - as mentioned - from level 4 onward, not "have to get to level 40+ before I can even look at it." |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
The point isn't what level I can do things.
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I have these benefits through most of the game, not just the little bit of END content, and get to keep them (to various extents, obviously I won't have light form if playing a Posi TF) while I exemp down.
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| It also says to get the one Eclipse buff, then go dwarf for capped resistance. I can keep this up full time and never suffer a crash. |
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| ... and lose all my offensive abilities? |
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| Great, and if you don't kill the EB/AV in the three minutes, you've got a crash that leaves you almost dead and without endurance to deal with. |
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Don't try and skew this, because I'll go the other way in a heartbeat.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If that were the case, why bother playing, just PL up to 50 and stay there.
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Why bother playing the first 40 levels when I know that for the last 10 (which account for much more playtime than the first 40) I will be completely outclassed?
That's what happened. I played my Peacebringer and liked him well enough until everyone started picking up epics. Suddenly everyone had the versatility my PB did, along with heaps more damage.
I tried to enjoy it. I really gave it my best. Peacebringers, in every aspect, are sub-par.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... wait, weren't you just putting Dwarf down a second ago?
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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This isn't a matter of skewing. You'll find it's my attitude on a lot of things (including the way most builds are posted here - "Hi, I'm just starting an X/Y, can someone give tips?" "Sure, here's a level 50, purpled out thing that won't do you a bit of good for 49 levels!") |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Don't try and skew this, because I'll go the other way in a heartbeat.
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I don't *care* that if you pick a specific APP in the 40s you get what I can get at level 4. Most people aren't there most of the time. Why was the Epic unlock level dropped? Because of low numbers. Why low numbers? Not that big of a percent of players were at 50 to begin with, and from that population, fewer played/kept epics. So they chose to open them up to more people.
Everybody plays a level 1. Most people play a level 15. A few fewer people play at level 25, and so forth.
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| Why bother playing the first 40 levels when I know that for the last 10 (which account for much more playtime than the first 40) I will be completely outclassed? |
I can either do that, or not worry that I'm not getting "teh ubar" DPS of, say, BillZBubba's scrapper and just *enjoy* myself. Because, strangely enough, I still get invited to teams regularly (and not just from the friends/SG list.) Nobody's come down on me doing 3 points of damage less here, or 10 points there. I have yet, in... let's see, 5 1/2 (first PB made in July 2005) years of play, been kicked from a team or rejected for not doing as much DPS, etc, etc as someone else.
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Just quoting this to mention we think alike. Go look at any build I've ever posted; it will not have a single set above level 40 and will have taken into full consideration the powers chosen along the way. Every one of my builds is meant to be played from level 1 on.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
This isn't a matter of skewing. You'll find it's my attitude on a lot of things (including the way most builds are posted here - "Hi, I'm just starting an X/Y, can someone give tips?" "Sure, here's a level 50, purpled out thing that won't do you a bit of good for 49 levels!")
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Then why play anything that's not FOTM?
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A peacebringer is designed to be a jack of all trades. It took heavy penalties in damage output to be able to have its versatility. The same level of versatility is available to the other ATs that it was designed to emulate, and they all do more damage.
Your Earth/FF and your Ice/emp all do things better than other ATs do. Your peacebringer does not. A blaster or a scrapper can control as well as your PB does, can do more damage than your PB can, and can survive as well as or better than your PB can.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I have yet, in... let's see, 5 1/2 (first PB made in July 2005) years of play, been kicked from a team or rejected for not doing as much DPS, etc, etc as someone else.
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I care because the people who enjoy playing PBs are being shortchanged. The PB does not fit on our scale of balance. I would like to see that corrected. That's all I'm saying, and I'm astounded that you offer such opposition to it.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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I know you do - all anyone has to do is look at the MFing Warshade guide to see that. But I can think of... oh, one? other guide (not of mine) that that's also the case with. (I also tend to take issue with "Well, IO out this and it can do such-and-such" - IE, "I can tank with my blaster" and so forth.) |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Just quoting this to mention we think alike. Go look at any build I've ever posted; it will not have a single set above level 40 and will have taken into full consideration the powers chosen along the way. Every one of my builds is meant to be played from level 1 on.
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What I'm taking issue with with this statement is your comment about your blaster doing all this - and it doesn't until the end game, and then only with very specific picks and with limitations of its own.
The APPs (and somewhat PPPs) are doing, at that point, what they're meant to do - helping fill holes in the ATs. Blasters, for instance, get buffs/debuffs and shields. Controllers get damage. Tanks get control and ranged damage, and so forth.
The Kheldian *has been doing that all along.* It's the same point that gets brought up when people ask why Khelds don't get an APP - what would it be "filling in?" Damage? We have a good range of attacks. Control? We get that. Shields? We have resistance, innate and selectable in the pri/sec. Range? Have it. Melee? Have it. Team buffs? Available via Leadership, as well as (PB side) glowing touch if you feel like healing folks. (Yes, if you swap forms you have to retoggle.)
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There's a very big difference between what I'm saying and what you are trying to infer. A peacebringer is designed to be a jack of all trades. It took heavy penalties in damage output to be able to have its versatility. The same level of versatility is available to the other ATs that it was designed to emulate, and they all do more damage. |
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| Your Earth/FF and your Ice/emp all do things better than other ATs do. Your peacebringer does not. A blaster or a scrapper can control as well as your PB does, can do more damage than your PB can, and can survive as well as or better than your PB can. |
The blaster has a mix of melee and range attacks, and some control (depending on primary/secondary, going from an immobilize (Fire, for instance) to multiple holds (Ice/Ice/most APPs, same with Elec.) But they survive *differently* than a PB. That one shield - defense *only* if you've picked specific APPs, resistance to a few types instead, with a buff to S/L if you've picked up Tough and its prerequisite - is available late, and limited. It's certainly nothing like Light Form *or* Dwarf.
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You're missing my entire point. I don't care that peacebringers are sub-par when I'm looking for people to invite to my team. Hell, on my first MoSTF I invited a peacebringer. I care because the people who enjoy playing PBs are being shortchanged. The PB does not fit on our scale of balance. I would like to see that corrected. That's all I'm saying, and I'm astounded that you offer such opposition to it. |
I won't argue against things that make a PB better - find a way for the toggles to run in forms? Sure! Buff up Photon Seekers? Sure! - but I disagree with the position you're making the comparison *from,* or at least how I'm reading it.
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You're dangerously close here to making the same kind of argument that you accuse Dechs of making with the APP's - just like you won't get Dech's APP powers for the vast majority of the game, you're not going to go up against EB's and AV's for the vast majority of the game. You're argument also assumes that you'll be ignoring nova form completely. It really doesn't matter if my resistances are capped or not against a hard target when I can go nova and at least slow its attack rate enough that I can out-dps it.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And if you need it back up when you're fighting a single enemy? Even in the "MFing Warshade" guide, what's the suggestion - "Try to keep some enemies alive so you can go back and buff." A PB doesn't have to do that. If it's down to just, say, myself and an EB/AV, I can still pop Light Form and have it working at full strength. If a 'shade does that, they get... one enemy to buff from, leaving a very weak eclipse (how many teams leave a spawn standing just for a warshade? And don't forget, you'll be aggroing that spawn as well.) Thus the "wasted" Eclipse.
See above. yes, Stygian does decently with just a few bodies, but if you need it and the bodies have faded (or you're fighting something, such as ghosts, that don't *leave* bodies,) you're SOL. |
Besides which, a well-slotted eclipse will give you upwards of 22% resistance and fill almost half your endurance bar off of one enemy. A well-slotted Stygian Circle will give you almost half your endurance and almost completely refill the average warshade health bar off of one boss, EB or AV. (average health bar, meaning somewhere between 1070 base and the 2400 max, depending on form and accolades, and well-slotted, assuming SC's 400+ BASE heal off of ONE boss-level or above corpse.) And before you point out that against a single hard target the corpses won't last forever, I might also mention that the Warshade also gets two siphon life clones (well, siphon life wanna-bes is more like it) for additional healing.
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| And the groups that resist Warshade damage aren't all that uncommon. While not a long list, it's still enemies you'll see through the game (various ghosts, for instance.) The damage/hold from the PB is instant, the WS is DOT (not inconsiderable, but not instant.) |
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| As far as slows vs knockback, there's going to be tradeoffs there regardless. Both can do them to *most* groups - and then they'll hit others where that may as not even exist (ooh, look, war wolves!) It's one of the nice things about running a mixed Kheld team - something that's a problem for one is not a big deal for the other. |
But that's not the point. The point is in addition to knockback Peacebringers get the most worthless secondary effect in the game. You've mentioned several times in the threads above that with the apparent implication that it is actually beneficial for Peacebringers to have, and I'm only being a little hyperbolic when I say that it's actually a detriment.
It's a detriment in that in a game where foes are as easy to hit as walls an accuracy-based defense debuff is laughably irrelevant, but its presence in a powerset is still a limiting factor for balancing the set's damage and mitigation.
Talk all you want about making foes easier to hit for poorly-slotted teammates; I won't plan my slotting around builds I cannot see or control. With the slot crunch hitting kheldians as hard as it does, something has to be sacrificed (unless you want to start talking about IO's now) and that something is either damage, accuracy or endurance.
I could slot less for accuracy (I suppose that was the original inent?) but then my dps has to go down while I spam the attacks that are slotted for def debuff.
Not by much, but in the end it's far more efficient to just slot for acc/end/damage and ignore the def debuff. Besides, it's not THAT hard to hit an enemy in this game.
My issue is that I always see the defense debuff talked about as though it's an even tradeoff for other secondary effects, and it just isn't. Not remotely.
Like I said before, the problems with defense debuffs (and, for that matter, with the game's overwhelming smashing/lethal resistances) aren't problems for Peacebringers specifically so much as they are problems with the system in which they exist. And if Castle's post in the stalker forums is any indication, the developers are done adjusting archetypes to cure systemic problems.
But I'm done being an apologist for an archetype that clearly needs help.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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You start with Doc Vahz in the teens, there are TFs/SFs throughout the game. No, you don't hit them every mission, or even every arc, but they're not horribly rare on the way up.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
just like you won't get Dech's APP powers for the vast majority of the game, you're not going to go up against EB's and AV's for the vast majority of the game. You're argument also assumes that you'll be ignoring nova form completely.
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And Nova is an option. Not a requirement. Of the two PBs I have at 50, one's a triform, one's human only.
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| Again, the circumstances where a warshade will run afoul of those enemies is rare, especially if you follow the Kheld arcs. |
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Talk all you want about making foes easier to hit for poorly-slotted teammates; I won't plan my slotting around builds I cannot see or control. With the slot crunch hitting kheldians as hard as it does, something has to be sacrificed (unless you want to start talking about IO's now) and that something is either damage, accuracy or endurance. I could slot less for accuracy (I suppose that was the original inent?) but then my dps has to go down while I spam the attacks that are slotted for def debuff. |
Background: Peacebringers are one of the three reasons I took the plunge and upgraded from City of Villains to the GVE edition (the other two being broadsword/regen, which I hate, and ill/rad, which I find boring to play. Sigh.) It took me *years* to stomach leveling that broadsword/regen to 50 to unlock peacebringers at last.
I was running a duo of a warshade and a peacebringer for a while but it became evident in the late 20s that anything I could do, he could do better (we joked about the song. Then I laughed and said "Yeah, but at least I can heal with a touch!" and he immediately hit me with aid other, having taken aid self for fighting EBs when there's no bodies around to chow down on).
He's long gone (AE burned him out. Leveled 10 characters to 50 on the Rikti farms in the first wave, felt hollow, and walked away.) but my 28 peacebringer remains.... but a level 27 warshade I rolled a few months ago is closing in on them fast - feasting on corpses and double miring their way to the top.
What can my Peacebringer do differently than my Warshade to not feel like I'm playing a low damage version of the same AT? I don't really *care* that the Peacebringer does less damage so long as that's not the primary difference between them.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."