1 def = 2 res...Really?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-12-29 12:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
45% def = 1 out of 20 mobs hitting for full = 90% resist.|
Originally Posted by GreenGiant
Hi,
Anyone that can link me a post or give me something to read about the maths that justify what I've read here about 1 defense being equal to 2 resist please? My maths must be flawed and I'd like to understand where it is. here's my maths: 45% def = 1 out of 20 mobs hitting for full = 95% resist. At this point, yes 1 def is roughly equivalent to 2 resist. 40% def = 2 out of 20 mobs hitting for full so you need 50% resist to be equivalent to 45% defense so, that's far from 1 : 2 35% def = 3 out of 20 mobs hitting for full so you need 66% resist to be equivalent to 45% defense. If I am right, is there even a resist based melee set that can even come close to a soft capped defense set? the defense sets even often come with some resistance and that's not even counting Tough. Even healing is barely an issue with aid self available. Thanks |
With 45% defense and 0% resistance, 1 out of 20 mobs hit you for full (assuming we're talking about even con minions without tohit buffs: higher ranks and higher levels complicate the math, but don't change the relationship until you get past +5 level difference).
With 0% defense and 90% resistance, 10 out of 20 mobs hit you for 10% damage, which is the same amount of damage as 1 mob hitting you for full. Ergo, on average, 45% defense will be equal to the damage mitigation of 90% resistance assuming we're talking about comparing totals, and not incremental buffs on top of pre-existing protections. Note the three sections in italics, they are important.
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Your maths seems a bit off there.
50% res is not equivalent to 2 out of 20 mobs hitting you, it's eqivalent to 10/20 mobs hitting you (i.e. half damage). For the same amount of damage reduction though defense, you'd need 25% def, which is half of the res number. To mitigate 18/20 mobs worth of damage (ie the equivalent of 2 hitting you), you'd need (18/20*100) = 90% res.
Actually, this makes me notice another semi-error. Thinking of 45% def as equals 1/20 hitting isn't really a good way to go about it. Because the base chance to hit is 50% anyway, while it does mean that only 5% of mobs will hit you, the reduction in incoming damage, which is what matters, is ((1-5/50)*100) = 90%, or 1/10 of the attacks that would have otherwise hit.
The easy way to look at it is this. 50% of attacks miss anyway, so each point of defense reduces the number of attacks that hit you by ((1/50)*100) = 2%. 2% less attacks hitting you is the same as taking 2% less damage from each attack, thus 1 def = 2 res.
There are of course other factors regarding which is worth more, but for just damage mitigation, it's a decent rule of thumb. Also it doesn't consider the effects of stacking with existing sources - 1 point of def on top of 40% def is worth much more than 2 points of res on top of 0% res.
In terms of resist based comparing to defenses, well, it really depends on what level you're looking at it. With SOs only, yes. Inv. in particular, while it does have some defense, can reach 90% resistance to SL (the two most common damages) on a tank (and perhaps a brute, I forget the exact numbers), which is as good as softcapped SL def, something very very few SO builds can achieve. The other res sets can achieve comparable mitigation to the defense sets. The problem comes when using IOs to boost defense. Firstly, res bonuses are small and less common that def ones, and secondly, for everyone other than Tanks and Brutes, the res cap is lower that 90% (75% for most ATs), and as such the maximum mitigation achievable through resistances is less than that achievable through defense.
you are right, I forgot to consider the base 50% hit chance for even level with 0% def(I thought that mob rank didn't apply anymore since a couple years ago though).
Still, if the rest of my maths are right, it is much much harder (if even possible) for a resist based set to have enough def to compensate a soft cap def set.
Which is why a lot of Resist based sets try and add in Defense as another layer on top of the resists.
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Yes, this is why resist based toons go for defense.
Soft capped defense + resistances = epic, Add in a heal or good regen and you're not gonna be dieing any time soon.
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Not really. One of the toughest scrappers in existence is Katana/Invuln. Divine Avalanche buys soft-cap levels of defense to melee and lethal, and Invuln itself has both significant resistances *and* significant defenses in tough hide and invincibility.|
Originally Posted by GreenGiant
Still, if the rest of my maths are right, it is much much harder (if even possible) for a resist based set to have enough def to compensate a soft cap def set.
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Also: mitigation sets normally considered "resistance-based" ** can buy temporarily ultra-high defense relatively easily with four small lucks. Mitigation sets focused on defense cannot as easily buy the resistance cap with inspirations.
In real world terms, Dark Armor, even with just SOs or common IOs, can approach and even exceed the net survivability of a soft-capped SR scrapper under many conditions. Soft-capping is a popular means of achieving high performance, but its not the only way. And soft-cap alone without very strong regeneration, healing via a power like aid self, or significant resistances, is actually not as strong as people think it is.
** There really isn't such a thing as a "resistance-based" set. The closest we get is Electric Armor, which still has energize. Basically all other sets considered "resistance-based" have extremely powerful alternate mitigation: Fiery Aura, for example, has the strongest autohitting self heal. Dark Armor has the strongest heal period, and two mez toggles. At one time, there was a set that was literally all defense: SR. And Ice was close. But at no time has there been an all resistance set. The set most identified with resistances - Invuln - owes more than half its total strength to heal, +health, and defense. And even in the perma-unstoppable days, the name "perma-unstoppable" was slightly misleading, because over 60% of the strength of the build came from invincibility, not unstoppable itself.
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Quote:
Does Stone Armor with both defense and resistance cap count? |
Originally Posted by GreenGiant
Hi,
If I am right, is there even a resist based melee set that can even come close to a soft capped defense set? the defense sets even often come with some resistance and that's not even counting Tough. Even healing is barely an issue with aid self available. Thanks |
As people have pointed out, a resistance capped character at 90% is far tougher than a defense capped character simply because they never have to worry about that lottery hit that will one shot kill them. Remember, if you have 20 bad guys surrounding you 1 of them is statistically going to hit every round of attacks, and if you get a bad luck streak you will instantly die if +def is your only defense.
In all seriousness, the OP does have a point: it is far easier to cap defense on characters in this game than it is to cap resistance. Assuming that the ammount of points you get from gear were equal (which they are not, resistances are insanely rare for set bonuses) you would need more than twice as much +res to equal the same number of +def from gear.
To me this is more of an itemization problem than a mechanics problem: resistance cap when its achieved is insanely powerful, but more difficult to get than +defense cap. But there's a major lack of +res options in the game right now that makes +res almost impossible to achieve. The Alpha slot power helps, but hopefully they go further with the other incarnate abilities later on.
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I see this complaint about avoidance based characters a lot, both here and in other game, and I have to say, from my experience, it's not something to be worried about. A streak bad enough to kill you is very unlikely, so you can pretty much ignore it, and if you do die once in a blue moon, so what?|
Originally Posted by Neparos
Does Stone Armor with both defense and resistance cap count?
As people have pointed out, a resistance capped character at 90% is far tougher than a defense capped character simply because they never have to worry about that lottery hit that will one shot kill them. Remember, if you have 20 bad guys surrounding you 1 of them is statistically going to hit every round of attacks, and if you get a bad luck streak you will instantly die if +def is your only defense. |
On the other hand def does have one big advantage over res - non-damaging effects (eg CC, debuffs etc) can be avoided along with damage.
To support what others have said, in the end, the best way to stay alive is layered protection - two or more of defense, resistance and healing and/or the equivalent debuffs.
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And damage output. "The best defense is a good offense" works fairly well in COH/V. My Fire/Fire/Pyre Tanker, for example, only has to live longer than the spawn, and she can make that a pretty short time indeed. Then Healing Flames fixes everything before the next spawn.
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Originally Posted by PhroX
To support what others have said, in the end, the best way to stay alive is layered protection - two or more of defense, resistance and healing and/or the equivalent debuffs.
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Stone Armor also has potential for capping HP, having very high regen, and has solid DDR. Its immense survivability comes not from just one or two factors, but from having all of the tanking factors covered(with the exception of the psi hole).
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Originally Posted by Neparos
Does Stone Armor with both defense and resistance cap count?
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Offense works well to supplement other mitigation methods, but offense alone doesn't do you a lot of good.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
And damage output. "The best defense is a good offense" works fairly well in COH/V. My Fire/Fire/Pyre Tanker, for example, only has to live longer than the spawn, and she can make that a pretty short time indeed. Then Healing Flames fixes everything before the next spawn.
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Just ask general population solo blasters from a couple years ago.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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None of my blasters have one iota of defense built in and I can survive with any of them just fine. And Ive been around since about launch.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Offense works well to supplement other mitigation methods, but offense alone doesn't do you a lot of good.
Just ask general population solo blasters from a couple years ago. |
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Yeah. The "once in a blue moon" affect mostly matters when facing truly extreme per-attack damage, where just one or two hits can kill you, such as in an AV fight. Here, resistance is 90% can be viewed as superior to high defense. But 90% resist with no defense is going to eat far more secondary effects or primary debuffs, assuming at least those which are not auto-hit.
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Originally Posted by PhroX
I see this complaint about avoidance based characters a lot, both here and in other game, and I have to say, from my experience, it's not something to be worried about. A streak bad enough to kill you is very unlikely, so you can pretty much ignore it, and if you do die once in a blue moon, so what?
On the other hand def does have one big advantage over res - non-damaging effects (eg CC, debuffs etc) can be avoided along with damage. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Dear lord, don't remind me. I remember when I first fought Neuron. Had Elude activated. I'd previously fought every single EB/AV before him since level 38 without getting hit. Fought the crystal titan in the Eden trial without using a single ambrosia, or being hit by the one shot attack. Then neuron did his jumping overhead smash attack, one shotted me. And I sat there staring at the screen for a good ten minutes trying to figure out what the heck just happened.
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Originally Posted by Neparos
Does Stone Armor with both defense and resistance cap count?
As people have pointed out, a resistance capped character at 90% is far tougher than a defense capped character simply because they never have to worry about that lottery hit that will one shot kill them. Remember, if you have 20 bad guys surrounding you 1 of them is statistically going to hit every round of attacks, and if you get a bad luck streak you will instantly die if +def is your only defense. |
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Offense works well to supplement other mitigation methods, but offense alone doesn't do you a lot of good.
Just ask general population solo blasters from a couple years ago. |
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
None of my blasters have one iota of defense built in and I can survive with any of them just fine. And Ive been around since about launch.
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Is a new player trying to figure out how to make their toon merely "more survivable" so they faceplant less than their buddies? Is someone trying to increase their tank's survivability enough that they can set Taunt on auto and "emergency afk" during 0/x8 radio missions? Is someone trying to gear up their scrapper for Stupid Scrapper Tricks™ like soloing a pylon, or to get their blaster enough raw offense that they can blaze through a "normal" 0/x1 radio mission without inspirations?
Different AT's are good at different things, but without specifics some of these statements make me laugh. I'd pay a pile of INF to see a blaster without "one iota of defense" blap their way through the "old" RWZ Scrapper Challenge, but SERIOUSLY doubt that anybody's got enough skill to do that with generic IO's.
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My widow runs around soft-capped, but let me tell you how often she just gets sideswiped by an AV or a +4 enemy from the new TFs. Soft-cap by itself is pretty nice, but when enemies put out so much damage they could one-shot you if there wasn't code against that, if you have anything but max HP at all times, there's always a 1/20 chance you'll just instantly die.|
Originally Posted by PhroX
I see this complaint about avoidance based characters a lot, both here and in other game, and I have to say, from my experience, it's not something to be worried about. A streak bad enough to kill you is very unlikely, so you can pretty much ignore it, and if you do die once in a blue moon, so what?
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Also, Bane Spider and KoA bosses can one-shot her too. +0 KoA bosses can crit for 1700.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yes, but you don't go diving, fist-first into multiple +4x8 mobs with bosses and EBs to slug it out to the death while belching "YO MOMMA!" at them do you?|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
None of my blasters have one iota of defense built in and I can survive with any of them just fine. And Ive been around since about launch.
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Or at least not very often and successfully.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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At 34 my archery/devices blaster has only the defense that cloaking device gives. Which may as well not exist. And yet, I HAVE jumped into groups of +4x8 enemies with an AV in them to drop trip mines. Course, I only toebomb with trip mine like that when in a good team.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Yes, but you don't go diving, fist-first into multiple +4x8 mobs with bosses and EBs to slug it out to the death while belching "YO MOMMA!" at them do you?
Or at least not very often and successfully. |
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I personally try to mix and match where I can. Most cases I find for myself that 35% ~ 40% a good sitting point if I have an easy way to build up my resistances. Don't get me wrong, I like to get to 45% but if you combine the two you get an overall better affect I feel. Helps keep you from getting one-shotted but your going to get hit more. But, thats the ups and downs of Layered Defenses.
Now, to give you an idea of what 45% Defense can do for you, I have a Kin/Sonic that has taken AV aggro before and lived to tell the tale. When I did get hit I just healed myself back up. My health bar took a healthy dip and had it been a damage with a slight dot I would have ate it but still, it was nice. Now, if I could still achieve my defense numbers but with a resistance based epic shield I would do that.
Dreaded Wail hits things freakin' hard.. i like to hit things freakin' hard... so.. id go Wail... SAVE THE WAILS!!!! - Solar_Lunata
Another example of what soft capped defense can do... Fighting the crystal titan without using ambrosia, and not getting insta-killed by it's special attack that requires ambrosia to survive. Really funny to see the entire team faceplanting but you, and them demanding to know why you didn't get killed. The one time I fought crystal titan in the trial, that happened. Everyone else was filling their entire tray with ambrosia, I was filling mine with respites, lucks, and catch breaths. Gave every ambrosia I got to the others. Didn't get hit once the entire crystal titan fight.
On the other hand, elude crashed JUST as the sucker died.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I did say 'general population'. Remember, we know for a fact that a couple years ago, blasters were THE worst performing solo core AT blueside.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
None of my blasters have one iota of defense built in and I can survive with any of them just fine. And Ive been around since about launch.
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If offense as mitigation was reliable, this wouldn't be the case.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Among my favorite memories from the perma-elude days. Right up there with going nuts in the old school infinite Infernal portals.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Another example of what soft capped defense can do... Fighting the crystal titan without using ambrosia, and not getting insta-killed by it's special attack that requires ambrosia to survive. Really funny to see the entire team faceplanting but you, and them demanding to know why you didn't get killed. The one time I fought crystal titan in the trial, that happened. Everyone else was filling their entire tray with ambrosia, I was filling mine with respites, lucks, and catch breaths. Gave every ambrosia I got to the others. Didn't get hit once the entire crystal titan fight.
On the other hand, elude crashed JUST as the sucker died. |
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If anything, this thread is convincing me to go the distance with my DA's quest to hit 45% S/L. Right now I have about 35% and the same to E/NE and I already have a hard time getting killed.
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Toughness, this is your answer for easily hitting 45% s/l. Down side is that it makes an already end heavy armor even more end heavy.
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
If anything, this thread is convincing me to go the distance with my DA's quest to hit 45% S/L. Right now I have about 35% and the same to E/NE and I already have a hard time getting killed.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Hi,
Anyone that can link me a post or give me something to read about the maths that justify what I've read here about 1 defense being equal to 2 resist please? My maths must be flawed and I'd like to understand where it is.
here's my maths:
45% def = 1 out of 20 mobs hitting for full = 95% resist.
At this point, yes 1 def is roughly equivalent to 2 resist.
40% def = 2 out of 20 mobs hitting for full so you need 50% resist to be equivalent to 45% defense so, that's far from 1 : 2
35% def = 3 out of 20 mobs hitting for full so you need 66% resist to be equivalent to 45% defense.
If I am right, is there even a resist based melee set that can even come close to a soft capped defense set? the defense sets even often come with some resistance and that's not even counting Tough.
Even healing is barely an issue with aid self available.
Thanks