Guardian Server's 10 BILLION Event!

Thank you, Azure!

As anyone who has worked to build a large SG knows, there are challenges.

Challenges that can tear SGs apart from the inside -- and have done so -- time and time again.

We overcame these issues by maintaining a solid, written set of Rules & Regs.

Having something like that to follow, that governed every aspect of the SG, really helped.

The rest was just making it super fun -- more fun to be a part of, than to ever want to be apart.

If anyone's interested, there is a "History" page on the SG Web Site (www.earthclanelite.com).

It speaks to how we grew from very humble beginnings to being the #1 SG on Guardian.

The SG's Rules & Regulations are also there on the Web Site, if you're curious!

-- Vivian

Actually, someone is already working his way up the ranks that way (i.e., buying Prestige, not earning it). At the time of this writing, this one-man-SG (who has taken the name of the Crazy 88s) is Rank 6 in just 3 months' time.

However, dumping Influence at the SG Registrar's desk is wholly at odds with what Prestige is intended to represent -- or, at least that's how our SG regards it. It is misuse of the Influence conversion system intended to help small SGs get over the hump to get that next piece of equipment, new plot size or base room.

So, even if that kind of person was to someday take the #1 slot through this continued practice (however briefly, as we continue generating Prestige every day through our constant activity, whereas a one-man SG needs to perpetually buy, buy, buy it), it would in no way diminish the pride of those of us who have worked to achieve it the proper way.

That is the essence of this celebration -- to take pride in what we have accomplished over the course of these last five (almost six) years. Just read our history, and you'll see what I mean (http://www.earthclanelite.com/history.html).

We reached this point without buying Prestige, and so we have arrived at this joyous day fantastically wealthy, with excellently-setted Toons. The over 10 Billion of Inf for the Event was cheerfully donated by our loyal, active SG members. We are happy to share our success and wealth in this Event.

If ever we chose to take that route -- and actually waste precious Inf by converting it to Prestige -- we could dump so many tens of Billions down the rabbit hole that they could never keep up.

But we would never do that -- it's not our way. We love to compete, but only with SGs that are legitimate.

-- Vivian

I think that is what he is trying to do. And the same thing is happening on Virtue. Marketeers are doing something nice and doing a "HUGE" inf dump. which means less surplus inf. Now do I say that the SG is really a SG NO.

It is cool that you guys are doing this. I wish my old SG was around on Liberty. But please think of this guys SG as more of a attempt to take excess inf out of the system, which is a good thing. If he makes it to even spot 2 that is a good thing. Just disregard it as competition. And it is very nice to see a long running active SG.

Thank you, Gypsy!

-- Vivian

Fortunately there's plenty of time until January 8th!

-- Vivian

Regrettably, I cannot look at it that way.

If they really wished to just take excess INF out of the system, they need only e-mail however many billions they like to themselves or a friend, make a toon, claim 2 billion at a time, then delete that toon.

Wash, rinse, repeat, flushing 2 billion each time down the bit bucket.

On the other hand, I can only see the jumping up of single-man SGs to high ranks on multiple servers through the contribution of tens of billions of INF across the servers by third parties as self-aggrandizement or as a deliberate attempt to stir up drama amongst those who find it offensive, such as on Virtue (as has been publically posted elsewhere in the forums).

The idea "I'm really doing this to help everyone" is disingenuous, at best.

-- Vivian

This makes no sense. The proper way to play the game is to be having fun. If they're having fun buying prestige, they are playing the game properly.

Prestige doesn't represent anything except accumulation of prestige, which could come from punching dudes or from marketeering or whatever else.

I think you guys are clearly doing an awesome thing with this celebration, but I also quite approve of the 88s efforts to battle the ceaseless inflation that this game's market suffers from. The implication that they're not doing it "properly" makes no sense; if it were intended to be used only to obtain those things, there would be a cap at enough prestige to buy absolutely everything you could possibly put in a base, but there isn't.

That is regrettable. Mental flexibility is a hugely desireable trait.

Sentences that start out "If <target> really wanted to <verb>" are, in English, nearly always attacks; they're a way of asserting that you have the ability to perceive other peoples' desires better than they do, or that they're lying. Either assertion is insulting on the face of it.

If you can only see it that way, that is your problem, not the problem of the people whose actions you can only see one way.

I don't see any aggrandizement going on. As to stirring up drama... If someone is gonna find "we have lots of fake fame that we bought with our fake money, lol" as offensive, there's really no need to go "stirring up" drama, they'll make it with or without your involvement.

You can believe whatever you want. When I burn inf to make prestige, I'm doing it because I think it's funny, and because I think the economy is improved by the massive destruction of inf. I'm playing the game in a way I enjoy playing the game, breaking no rules, and not real fond of being accused of malicious intent by someone who's never met me, talked to me, or in any other way developed a qualification to speak as to my motives.

That sounds fun! Crazy 88s peaked at what, 140 billion in one day?

I would have a hard time viewing anyone who brands other people "illegitimate" as "legitimate". The only way to be legitimate in a video game is to be, you know, more relaxed about it.

Why not just compete both ways? Have your "punching dudes for prestige" super group, and then have a separate "burning inf" supergroup. Your "punching dudes" super group can compete with all the other "punching dudes" supergroups, and your "burning inf" supergroup can compete with all the "burning inf" supergroups. Then you can win both competitions -- and the market will be much improved by the process.

Hi Seebs, good to hear from you.

I am not telling them these people to NOT do what they are doing -- for example, I am not sending them tells, PMs, or in any way trying to stop them from having fun whatever way they like. Nor do I harbor any resentment. They are more than welcome to do as they please. However, if someone asks my opinion about it (which we are all entitled to), I personally feel that it is an improper thing to do.

You can also reach Level 50 by door-sitting in AE mishes. Is that toon any less "Level 50" than another Level 50? No. It's accumulated XP is it's accumulated XP, and it came from door sitting, not punching dudes. But -- that is not my point. It is not the Prestige alone but the manner in which it is gained -- and thus, what it represents.

Regulating the game economy is the job of the Developers on the Maintenance Team, not a SuperGroup of Players in the game.

That aside, there are ways to dump INF without affecting anything, one of which I explained in an earlier message, which is to put it on toons and delete them. Doing it this way -- in my opinion -- cheapens and demeans the efforts of all those who have labored for years to rise on the Top-100 List in the fashion intended by the Developers when the INF --> Prestige system was implemented.

If you think back to the time period when this exchange system was implemented, 100 Million Influence was a tremendous amount of money. Indeed, most purples like Armageddon would rarely go for 70 Million in price. The exchange rate of 1,000 Influence for 2 Prestige was seen as so not-worth-it that few availed themselves of it unless they were SO CLOSE to that next item for their base that they could make the difference up with Influence.

Unfortunately, although the game's economy has been undergoing extensive inflation due to some of the massive Influence fountains like AE over the past few years, this exchange rate never changed. In my opinion, really, it should have. But since it did not change, the once-terrible exchange rate now became laughable -- and single-man SGs can literally buy their way to the top of the Top-100 list.

Don't you think that's at odds with the original intent of the Influence to Prestige exchange system as it was first implemented by the Devs?

-- Vivian

PS: My own opinion on the matter is my own opinion, not that of any other.

Oh, rest assured that I did try to look at it that way.

I tried to believe the rosy concept that this was all being done to just help everyone, but given (a) the extensive and clear intent to do this to cause a ruckus on Virtue, and (b) the existence of other ways to dispose of INF without causing anyone any grief, I doubt any reasonable person would take it as written without a large grain of salt..

Dear me, I never meant to insult anyone by pointing out the facts. How dreadfully rude of me. I withdraw it all! Perish the thought that anyone take offense at what they are doing. Oh -- wait -- I did take offense. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. But my insult matters little, if anything -- all you're concerned about is that I don't offend in return by pointing out the fallacies inherent in the assumption that this is really for everyone's good.

You are quite correct. If somehow I gained the ability to see everything your way, I am certain we would be in happy agreement on all things. But of course, the reverse is true as well.

At the end of the day we can happily agree to disagree, as intelligent folks do on occasion.

You think it's okay, and I think it's not.

I'm not railing, campaigning or crusading against it. It is what it is.

On the flip side, where I'm not interjecting in threads where it's being promoted, you are actively pushing for it, by repeatedly posting in this thread how you think my opinion is wrong. Had someone not asked my opinion on the matter, I would never have voiced it.

Ah, that explains why you're so upset. You're one of the people that's actively doing it.

What I think you don't get is that it's perfectly okay, Seebs, for you and I to disagree. You think it's funny! I think it isn't.

We can happily disagree on this underlying issue all day long. I don't feel hurt that we disagree, and I'll just as happily team and have fun with you online as if we had never voiced our differences here.

Seebs, if someone asks me my opinion, I will give it.

If you re-read my post, you will see that I was not referring to, and did not name or accuse you of anything -- indeed, I was only referring to the person who was doing this on Guardian, who is not you. There is no need for you to jump up and down like this and feel accused, set upon, upset, etc.

I am sorry that my opinion on the matter has upset you, as it was certainly not my intent. I could, perhaps, understand your reaction if I was posting in the threads where you had started all of this (which I read, but did not participate), but I did not. You are coming to my thread.

-- Vivian

If you read the post more carefully, you will see that I was referring to the single-man-SG's efforts, not that of all of the individuals who have contributed to this process across all servers.

I am quite relaxed about it. More, I suspect, than you are.

I was answering the question of someone who was asking my opinion on the matter. My opinion (which clearly differs from yours, but that is perfectly okay) is that I regard a single-man-SG that buys all its Prestige to reach the #1 spot as illegitimate.

The word "illegitimate" in this context means "departing from the regular".

(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegitimate)

I'm not sure why anyone (yourself included) would argue that this process -- buying your way to Rank #1 on the Top-100 list -- is a departure from the regular process of getting there. It seems pretty obvious that it is.

-- Vivian

I don't think it represents anything. One of the larger supergroups I know of has a ton of prestige because they force people to run in SG mode and badger them into levelling multiple 50s in SG mode. That strikes me as a much worse way to generate prestige than actually playing the game in order to have fun.

I do not agree. This is an MMO. The economy is by design controlled by player decisions. In short, we get to decide what we think things "should" be worth, and act to bring it about.

Hmm. See, I'm not sure about that, but I guess I sort of see it. It's just... If I come into something knowing that it is by design structured so that there are multiple ways to raise your "score" in some kind of minigame or competition, I'm not going to assign meaning to it as though there were only one way. I am pretty sure the system is not intended to be used in any specific manner. I dunno, maybe we could get a red name to come in and say what they "intended". I will say, though, that I think they're probably more bothered by groups that pressure people into prestige-farming than by groups that bypass the entire concept.

Sure. And indeed, so far as I can tell, it's still really not worth it -- and I say this with a straight face despite having just spent 300M so a one-toon vanity group can have a suitably dank lair.

No, in that I'm not at all sure there was an original intent. It's true that, when it came out, it was too expensive to use for much of anything, but that now it's not. However, it's just as possible (from my point of view) that it was intended to be used as an inf sink, but that they set the conversion rate too steep, such that people weren't actually using it as an inf sink the way they were intended to.

Honestly, if there were to be an original intent, I would guess that it was intended as an inf sink -- simply because MMO economies are nearly always built around their money sinks. This is by far the largest inf sink in the game except for maybe market fees right now; the money I just blew getting a big workshop for my personal use is more than I would have spent in the entire lifespan of this character keeping two full builds with ++SOs in every single slot, plus changing every costume slot I have at every single level. A lot more.

So if I were to bet, I'd bet that the "inf sink" functionality is intended as such -- it's there as a way to take inf out of the market, and I suspect that, had they thought it through a little better, they would have set the conversion rate enough lower to make it more attractive to people, so we'd have had less inflation all along.

I assume they intended SGs to compete for prestige, although I don't know. But consider: If everyone viewed "buying prestige" as a part of that competition, wouldn't the economy be a lot nicer?

Anyway, I guess in the absence of a clear statement from the devs on the topic, I wouldn't feel comfortable asserting that something is or isn't the intent of the devs as to how the inf->prestige conversion is supposed to work. If I were absolutely forced to guess, though, I'd guess that it had been intended as an inf sink.

Keep in mind that, back when this stuff started, SG prestige costs were a LOT higher than they are now. As your base grew, the upkeep costs grew with it, so you were burning a fairly large amount of prestige -- meaning you had to work to keep up with it. In that context, the conversion might have been intended to fund that upkeep. Of course, the conversion rate being so steep, people just failed to pay upkeep and complained about it being too hard.

YMMV.

I gotta say, though, I really respect the way you're handling this; you're actually supporting your points, you're being polite, and so on. No matter how much "prestige" your SG has, you seem to be running a class act.

Language doesn't work that way. The word "illegitimate" has a very strong connotation of impropriety, not merely irregularity. Bowing to people when introduced to them is certainly "departing from the regular" in our society, but no one would ever call it "illegitimate". The connotation of moral wrongness or violation of rules, not merely being unusual, is inescapable; whatever you may or may not mean, if you say "illegitimate", and people react as though you said "objectively immoral and worthy of blame and censure", you can't complain that they're being unreasonable.

Having watched this project for some time, it started with intent to burn inf; Virtue was picked because it would be funny there, but the primary intent had to do with burning inf, the lulz were secondary.

Your speculations as to other peoples' motives are not "facts".

Well, that is ultimately the point. It's fine for you to think it isn't funny; no one expects you to share my sense of humor. But if you then reason from not thinking it funny to the assertion that I'm not doing it because I think it's funny, that's different.

I have spent a fair amount of time talking to many of the participants. I consistently find that they find it amusing and that they think it is a good thing to destroy inf. I would also point out that there is a reason other than "causing grief" to do this in a public way: It induces other people to burn inf to "compete", and thus multiplies the amount of inf burned.

Given that, I don't see any basis for claiming that people are lying about their motivations. Different people have different reasons, ranging from "want to get back at that annoying guy who spammed me with SG invites every day for a month" to "because it was there". But I don't think any of the people doing this have been lying about their motivations.