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There never has been a particular playstyle or theme of how the game is played. You can play your blaster anyway you chose. I have played my nuke as a opener and a finisher. Thats all the individual.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
Except that, from what people have been posting here, they don't get used in this fashion. They are used to insta-pwn a spawn so that the team can move forward that much faster. That's not a Last Tactical Solution. That's a preemptive strike solution so your team has one less speed bump on its steam roller route.
This was kind of my point when I talked about them not matching up to the theme of how the game is played. These are powers that were put in the game during the 'dark ages' so to speak. They were supposed to get a team out of an impossible fight when you aggroed too many mobs etc. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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If thats an even level mob then I'm actually a bit worried. My AR/Ice Blaster takes even level mobs and chews up everything under an LT into shredded confetti with BU+Full Auto. RoA is even nastier.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
I have a Blaster with Full Auto and I have a blaster wih RoA and they can barely take out a mob their level with a nuke unless I stack another attack
All of my other blasters can wipe a mob out their level with with ONE nuke.. With additional attacks I can easily wipe out a +2 mob with a Nuke on all my other blasters. The Nukes that have a crash do more damage per application. The crashless nukes while up more often do less damage. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I wil say that I would need to try it again because I havent played it in a while. I will tell you that any of my other blasters can easily defeat +2 mobs with their nukes with the crash..|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
If thats an even level mob then I'm actually a bit worried. My AR/Ice Blaster takes even level mobs and chews up everything under an LT into shredded confetti with BU+Full Auto. RoA is even nastier.
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And the reality is that the crash isnt that big of a deal... Seriously.. thats what inspirations are for.
Elec/Elec has Powersink.. Eat a blue.. full end bar on next mob...
Nrg/Nrg has Conserve Power.. Eat a Blue hit CP and I will be fine..
Rad/MM and Fire/MM have Drain Psyche.. Eat a Blue.. Drain next mob...
I am glad there are crashless nukes.. I enjoy them... but that doesnt negate or change the usefulness of the other nukes.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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This is true to a certain extent. But by and large...people are sheep. Whatever is considered the 'popular' thing to do will be done by most people.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
There never has been a particular playstyle or theme of how the game is played. You can play your blaster anyway you chose. I have played my nuke as a opener and a finisher. Thats all the individual.
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Usually it is by that general consensus that changes are made to the game in the first place.
Take inherent fitness. There were folks(like me) that got along just fine without it except for certain builds. The vast majority of people obviously thought differently(or didn't think and just followed the crowd), and took fitness for every toon regardless of if they needed it it or not.
So yes, I play my blasters a certain way, and you another and we may value our individuality. To most other folks, they do what they see someone else doing or what they get told is the norm. People that come to the forums are probably outliers more often than not.
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I can agree with that.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
This is true to a certain extent. But by and large...people are sheep. Whatever is considered the 'popular' thing to do will be done by most people.
Usually it is by that general consensus that changes are made to the game in the first place. Take inherent fitness. There were folks(like me) that got along just fine without it except for certain builds. The vast majority of people obviously thought differently(or didn't think and just followed the crowd), and took fitness for every toon regardless of if they needed it it or not. So yes, I play my blasters a certain way, and you another and we may value our individuality. To most other folks, they do what they see someone else doing or what they get told is the norm. People that come to the forums are probably outliers more often than not. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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And herein lies the problem. Almost always, nukes will leave "some mopping up..." WHICH YOU CAN'T DO, because you have no endurance, no recovery and no toggles. Now, granted, there are ways to... Kind of mitigate this, most popularly inspirations. But then inspirations can help you overcome a great many limitations, up to and including God Mode crashes.|
Originally Posted by Furio
edit--And either way it's used, it wouldn't perform the way it does if it were a FA/RoA type power. Nukes act as an exclamation point. "This fight ends *now*!" (ok there's a bit of mopping up, but you get my meaning), and sure, sometimes the fight is over because I'm dead. The mini nukes, on the other hand, are commas.
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Here's what I've been saying all along: I don't mind a big boom that costs A LOT and kills ALMOST everything, provided it still gives me at least SOME means to clean up after it. Like I said - having the power cost 40-60 points of endurance and be immune to endurance reduction slotting and buffs would still constitute a significant "dip." Hell, you can take that up to 80 or 90 now that everyone has Fitness. Even just a little is better than nothing at all.
What can just a little buy me? Well, it can buy me a single use of Blaze or possible Consume. It could allow me the ability to fly so I can get the hell out of there. It can buy me the chance to hit Frozen Aura, or even Hybernate. Or, at the very least, it can help me not drop all of my toggles.
I don't really ask or expect Inferno to act like Rain of Arrows (though a Blackheart style Heart of Darkness sort of pillar of flame into the sky would be cool), in that I don't want Inferno to be any weaker or recharge any faster. I don't want nukes to be more USEFUL as much as I want them to be LESS SITUATIONAL.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The end crash/recovery thing is a very minor annoyance on my fire blaster.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And herein lies the problem. Almost always, nukes will leave "some mopping up..." WHICH YOU CAN'T DO, because you have no endurance, no recovery and no toggles. Now, granted, there are ways to... Kind of mitigate this, most popularly inspirations. But then inspirations can help you overcome a great many limitations, up to and including God Mode crashes.
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Okay, it USED to be something to worry about...then they added inspiration combining to the game.
At the higher levels when you have a big tray to mess around with there's no excuse for not having a handful of *whatever* you need/want on hand for emergencies.
Here's how things go with my fire blaster, who has Inferno up every other spawn or so:
Zip in, aim>buildup>inferno, eat a couple of blues, blow up stragglers with Fireball and Blaze. By the time I've finished them off, my recovery is working again and my blue bar is well recovered by the time I start shooting at the next spawn.
The end crash just isn't much of real counterbalance to the glory of a nuke in the modern game.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
But that's exactly what would happen, Sam. To quote Castle, "balance is as balance does, punk". I'm fairly certain there'd be a lessening of the nukes in some way to settle accounts for gaining that bit of blue bar, leaving even more to mop up, or taking even longer between uses...personally, I like it the way it is. Boom. Blue. Consume.
edit- What Nether said. Insp combining means I pretty much always have a blue available, even though I'm in the habit of saving one, anyways.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
i dont bother with quotes im not on the foroums that much.
as i said on my elec/elec/elec balaster i CAN nuke every min, its called 3 slots of recharge in blast+hasten, and at high lvls i got my IOs caped for recharge.
my common alpha strike to mobs is nuke, pop blue, power sink, short circuit.
if they are still alive the have no end.
this is the most effective combo for dealing with end crash but i have found others on most blaster builds, u can deal with crashes on any set with a nuke.
im not a min/maxer iv just been playing blasters from launch so iv learned over time what dose and dosunt work so dont tell me what i can and cant do. now stop complaining that the game dosunt fit the way u want it to.
Its ok full auto . . . . . they can keep their nukes . . . . . . we have boost range!
Not related to blasters, but i LOVE a warshades nuke. Its honestly a thing of beauty when you see it.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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It may feel like every minute, but you can't actually get the recharge down that low.
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Originally Posted by Sqeak
as i said on my elec/elec/elec balaster i CAN nuke every min, its called 3 slots of recharge in blast+hasten, and at high lvls i got my IOs caped for recharge.
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This kind of uncompromising "quid pro quo" approach to balancing is the one thing I don't think I ever agreed with Castle on, and for one simple reason: It assumes that things are balanced correctly, and we just need a different interpretation of that balance. This makes it incredibly difficult to pitch for an increase in ANYTHING, even in absurd cases like Cloaking Device or Voltaic Sentinel. It ensures that balance of all things is cosntantly attempting to remain static, often in the face of what people actually do in practice.|
Originally Posted by Furio
But that's exactly what would happen, Sam. To quote Castle, "balance is as balance does, punk". I'm fairly certain there'd be a lessening of the nukes in some way to settle accounts for gaining that bit of blue bar, leaving even more to mop up, or taking even longer between uses...personally, I like it the way it is. Boom. Blue. Consume.
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I don't feel Blaster nukes are balanced well as they are now. What I feel should happen is not a case of adding usability at the cost of damage or recharge. It's a case of making them better. I know this seems like a ludicrous statement considering how much damage they do, but the problem is that Blaster nukes more than almost any other power in the game are balanced by annoyance. As people have explained already, their drawbacks can be mitigated in one way or another. The biggest thing they do, at least to me, is make it so I don't want to bother. And that's not good.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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that's where the 'balance' comes in.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The biggest thing they do, at least to me, is make it so I don't want to bother. And that's not good.
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not everyone will be bothered to stockpile blues to trivialize the crash, which is why they're as good as they are.
if everyone used nukes the way I do, they'd get nerfed in short order.
it's already borderline abusive how good they are with high global recharge.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Exactly. They're already absurdly powerful with just SO slotting. Inferno will outright kill almost every minion it hits, leave LTs around 25% or less from death and catch the attention of (the now very injured) bosses. The rest of the full nukes are also the relatively exotic damage types, as far as resistances go, and do the same thing with the side-grade (as opposed to upgrade) of secondary effect mitigation. Seriously, if there wasn't that downside of the crash they'd be practically an "I Win" button. As it is, they're an "I win with a modicum of preparedness" button.
You may not like they way they're balanced but considering they've existed in the state that they have for as long as they have and are as popular as they are does say something.
Honestly, the only time I've seen something in a game just get a straight out upgrade was when it was crap to begin with. The nukes are far from that.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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When multiple damage components hit and when you catch some AoE. But nukes don't always land all their damage components. In fact, you run a chance of only landing one. You only "win" if you use them to open a fight, and even then only if you actually kill everybody.|
Originally Posted by Furio
Exactly. They're already absurdly powerful with just SO slotting. Inferno will outright kill almost every minion it hits, leave LTs around 25% or less from death and catch the attention of (the now very injured) bosses. The rest of the full nukes are also the relatively exotic damage types, as far as resistances go, and do the same thing with the side-grade (as opposed to upgrade) of secondary effect mitigation. Seriously, if there wasn't that downside of the crash they'd be practically an "I Win" button. As it is, they're an "I win with a modicum of preparedness" button.
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Blaster nukes are a weird thing. They're balanced by really long recharge, they're balanced by highly unpredictable damage, they're balanced by a total drain and they used to be balanced by STUNNING you when you used them way back when, so they've already gotten at least one straight upgrade. To my eyes, Nukes as they are now, along with Snipes as they are now, are all leftovers from a very... Odd idea of balance that used to linger around the time of Launch. I don't want to cripple the powers, but I honestly don't feel they deserve ALL of those drawbacks.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Off topic but got to ask why snipes? | along with Snipes as they are now, are all leftovers from a very... Odd idea of balance that used to linger around the time of Launch |
Dont see anything wrong with them personally.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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I'd forgotten about the stun...Although now that i do, I think that got swapped out for the -recovery. An upgrade to be sure, but not a straight up upgrade.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
When multiple damage components hit and when you catch some AoE. But nukes don't always land all their damage components. In fact, you run a chance of only landing one. You only "win" if you use them to open a fight, and even then only if you actually kill everybody.
Blaster nukes are a weird thing. They're balanced by really long recharge, they're balanced by highly unpredictable damage, they're balanced by a total drain and they used to be balanced by STUNNING you when you used them way back when, so they've already gotten at least one straight upgrade. To my eyes, Nukes as they are now, along with Snipes as they are now, are all leftovers from a very... Odd idea of balance that used to linger around the time of Launch. I don't want to cripple the powers, but I honestly don't feel they deserve ALL of those drawbacks. |
And yeah they don't always land all the damage checks, but only landing 1 is like rolling 0s in a tabletop game. Most of the time, the big 1-2 will hit most of the mobs in the AoE....that's hardly "highly unpredictable damage"
And yeah...opening a fight is a good time to use it, but better is after a teammate's gathered aggro a bit...clustered them nice and tight. It's really not that it's situational per se, but that that they're more of a team power. It can simply save the team time, or save the team a wipe
All of the drawbacks can be mitigated to a large extent by power selection, slotting and preparedness; all of those are as much a part of the game as running around and blasting foolish NPCs. I really think that asking for more with out expecting to give something up is unrealistic.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Solo, they're only really useable to start a fight, unless you slot heavily for interrupt time redux. Otherwise, you'll just get hit and it won't go off. Of course, if you do that, it'll hit for crap damage, or miss alot, or rarely be up, relatively speaking. In a team setting I use mine as part of my chain against hard targets, no issue with em there, for me at least.
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Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Off topic but got to ask why snipes?
Dont see anything wrong with them personally. |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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More specifically, snipes take far too long to deal far too little damage (REALLY crappy DPA, in other words) making them a poor use of Aim and/or Build Up. They have the advantage of range, but to take advantage of that means to fire at a range from which you can't follow up, and their unbuffed damage is not all that remarkable. There really are very few situations where using a snipe is at all worth it (mostly when Aim and Build Up haven't recharged or if you have neither), and very few of them use it for damage.|
Originally Posted by Furio
Solo, they're only really useable to start a fight, unless you slot heavily for interrupt time redux. Otherwise, you'll just get hit and it won't go off. Of course, if you do that, it'll hit for crap damage, or miss alot, or rarely be up, relatively speaking. In a team setting I use mine as part of my chain against hard targets, no issue with em there, for me at least.
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You can't use Snipes in combat with any reliability, and even if you could they wouldn't be worth it. They're far, far too situational for the short recharge (and damage) they are given. Dominator snipes have the right idea, scaling up to 3.56 (from the 2.7 that Blasters have), but Dominators are an exception to practically every rule.
I take and use my snipes in a team setting, that much I'll admit, but I do so for lack of decent recharge to cycle my other attacks or, as is the case for Assault Rifle, for LACK of other attacks. Had I the option to just cycle my more normal blasts, as I do with Archery or Fire Blast, I would scarcely ever use my snipes, as I do with Blazing Bolt and Ranged Shot.
The reason I bring Snipes up is that I have a general gripe with Blaster power balance and all the oddities they are given that don't really seem to be all that great. Nukes on their own are fine. I could question them, but they're fine. But add snipes, questionable support powers, underpowered pets, absurd-cast bombs and so on and it's just one more thing on a pile of many others.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think nukes are okay but I could agree with some looking into snipes.
I like the cool looking snipes tho. And even though the Stalker snipes are worse, I like the option of ASing stuff at range.
Lol, it kinda synergizes with my Spines primary as I can use the slows and immobilize to plant a target in place for the firing squad (me).
Dunno what they could do to make the snipes better...point blank bonus if used within a specific range? (most likely infeasible, tho) Chance of placate?
Sleet+Ice rain+Blizz = Winter wonderland.
@Mechaniker
Official Old Angry German Guy of CoV.
My Characters: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247787
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Originally Posted by DoktorMechaniker
Sleet+Ice rain+Blizz = Winter wonderland.
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lol saying that, i often use quicksand as a power to create a beach effect for when me and a few old friends "chill on our cruise"
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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No you literally cannot nuke every minute. You would literally have to have 200% recharge. |
Originally Posted by Sqeak
i dont bother with quotes im not on the foroums that much.
as i said on my elec/elec/elec balaster i CAN nuke every min, its called 3 slots of recharge in blast+hasten, and at high lvls i got my IOs caped for recharge. |
Only the lower end nukes can nuke literally every minute. 100% recharge shaves off half your recharge time. So 6 minutes becomes 3 minutes. Even if you could hit 150% recharge...you would still end up with at least a minute and a half between nukes.
If I have this wrong...please feel free to correct me on it.
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| im not a min/maxer iv just been playing blasters from launch so iv learned over time what dose and dosunt work so dont tell me what i can and cant do. now stop complaining that the game dosunt fit the way u want it to. |
*gasp* I think that's what the forums are for...discussing various viewpoints of different aspects of the game!!
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You must be playing with different Snipes than I do.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
More specifically, snipes take far too long to deal far too little damage (REALLY crappy DPA, in other words) making them a poor use of Aim and/or Build Up. They have the advantage of range, but to take advantage of that means to fire at a range from which you can't follow up, and their unbuffed damage is not all that remarkable. There really are very few situations where using a snipe is at all worth it (mostly when Aim and Build Up haven't recharged or if you have neither), and very few of them use it for damage.
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They have awesome damage, you can get within regular range and start the fight with a snipe, take down annoying opponents (i.e., sorcerers) in one shot or require minimal followup to finish (dang sappers being resistant).
I especially love the knockdown from AR's snipe.
This was kind of my point when I talked about them not matching up to the theme of how the game is played. These are powers that were put in the game during the 'dark ages' so to speak. They were supposed to get a team out of an impossible fight when you aggroed too many mobs etc.
edit--And either way it's used, it wouldn't perform the way it does if it were a FA/RoA type power. Nukes act as an exclamation point. "This fight ends *now*!" (ok there's a bit of mopping up, but you get my meaning), and sure, sometimes the fight is over because I'm dead. The mini nukes, on the other hand, are commas.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2