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Because I don't think either one of them are any good? |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I'll just point out that comparing Synder directly to Bay does nothing but call into question your standards for movies "high" or otherwise.
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I wouldn't even really say, honestly, that my standards for a movie are that high but they're high enough that I have no desire to watch anything by Zack Snyder.
I will wait for the rental on this one. There is no way the actual film can be as good as the trailer makes it look.
I'm hoping this will be as good as it looks. My feeling is that, like Avatar was with Pandora, it will be more about showcasing the world "Babydoll" has imagined that the actual plot, which I do not expect to be particularly deep.
What does strike me as odd is how Amber, Sweetpea, Blondie and Rocket have this burlesque theme in their oufits but Babydoll, the main protagonist, is completely "Japanese Schoolgirl" stereotype in style. Maybe it's a metaphor thing for the character's innoscence with similar affectations for the personalities of the other women (Sweetpea's hood, Amber's partial uniform etc.).
Now I'm left worried that there may be more depth to this film than it can actually communicate. =/
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Believe me, I'm right there with you. Snyder makes great eye candy and Bay (to me) doesn't even do that. Remember, even Bay has it in him to at least HELP make a decent film (though The Rock heavily relied on Connery, Cage and Ed Harris to give it any sense of life. I also consider The Island a guilty pleasure.) Snyder gets me into the theater at least two more times with zero evolution, before he shifts to being a "see it on DVD director" for me. I have to be socially cornered in order to watch a Bay film
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm no raving Snyder fan-grrl or anything of the like, but even if Snyder is currently "stuck" or "stunted" as a director I still think he's many levels above Bay at this point in the "at least I'm still willing to see another movie that he makes" category. I've pretty much given up any hope for Bay at this point. *shrugs*
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I think Snyder is a remarkable director, mostly based on 300 and Watchmen. In 300, he created a unique visual style to tell a historically-based (loosly) story with some real meaning behind it. Gerard Butler and Lena Headley have become commonly known thanks to their roles in that film. And while I have never read the graphic novel upon which it was based, the Snyder's visual style in that film makes it seem almost as though you are reading the graphic novel.
I actually did read Watchmen before the film, and thought it was unfilmable. But Snyder did it and did it well. Yes, I know about the changes, and I agree with most of them. Regardless of whether everyone considers it to be a great movie, I think it was a remarkable achievement to put that graphic novel on film as accurately as Snyder did.
Both of those were derivative works, where Snyder had to appease existing fans with a close-to-exact translation of the original work to the film. It will be very interesting to see what he can do with an original work. As for the trailer . . . I think it looks like a geekgasm nerdfest . . . let's face it, hot chicks, awesome fights and big explosions draw people into the theater, so that's what gets featured in the trailers.
And Snyder directing a new Superman film? Maybe we will get a Superman film with a decent plot without massive and stupid plot holes for once. As much as the Donner version of Superman is revered, the plots were so filled with holes and stupid warnings that were ignored that they ruined a good performance by Christopher Reeve. Making a modern Superman with real action, a coheasive plot and decent writing is a challenge which Bryan Singer failed. I think Zack Snyder has a better chance.
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I actually do look forward to Snyder's Superman reboot. If we can get a Superman/Darkseid city-smashing epic, I'll be happy. I never felt like Supes was particularly suited to character study and should be a showcase for over-the top action set-pieces. I think the Wachowskis would do a good job with it too.
Now where is my Tarantino Wolverine reboot?
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Looks like we're going to (possibly) be getting something alot better than that as Aronofsky is supposedly directing the next Wolverine film.
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Originally Posted by Chazzmatazz
I actually do look forward to Snyder's Superman reboot. If we can get a Superman/Darkseid city-smashing epic, I'll be happy. I never felt like Supes was particularly suited to character study and should be a showcase for over-the top action set-pieces. I think the Wachowskis would do a good job with it too.
Now where is my Tarantino Wolverine reboot? |
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I think a film that's true to the character wouldn't be very popular. It's fudged some in the books but Logan is supposed to be 5'3" tall, not the 6'2" that Hugh Jackman is. So in terms of actors, you're talking about Mickey Rooney, David Faustino (Married With Children) and Davy Jones (The Monkees). Interestingly, Robert Blake (formerly Mickey Gubitosi of the Our Gang comedies) is 5'4" tall, and in his prime I can totally see him as Wolverine. That's the perfect actor for the role, I think. Too bad about that whole spacetime continuum thing.
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Originally Posted by JeNeSaisQuoi
Looks like we're going to (possibly) be getting something alot better than that as Aronofsky is supposedly directing the next Wolverine film.
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I call.|
Originally Posted by JeNeSaisQuoi
Because I don't think either one of them are any good?
I wouldn't even really say, honestly, that my standards for a movie are that high but they're high enough that I have no desire to watch anything by Zack Snyder. |
What movie(s) do YOU consider worthy of your high standards?
If you're just gonna take pot shots, at least set a baseline for comparison.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
I haven't seen a Zack Snyder film I haven't enjoyed. His Dawn of the Dead remake was good (but even the worse zombie movie is better then sub par regular ones) and his adaptations of 300 and Watchmen were phenomenal (Yeah, I said it). I haven't seen his owl movie, but it can't be all that bad.
300 & Watchmen were kickass flicks. I have no reason to believe that Suckerpunch will be any different.
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I can't credit Snyder with creating a unique visual style for 300, since he was essentially copying Miler's comic the same way Rodriguez was doing with Sin City. His crew did an excellent job of interpreting the book's look and mimicking it for film, but that's not quite the same as originating it.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I think Snyder is a remarkable director, mostly based on 300 and Watchmen. In 300, he created a unique visual style ... And while I have never read the graphic novel upon which it was based, the Snyder's visual style in that film makes it seem almost as though you are reading the graphic novel.
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Book v. movie comparison.
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Well, remember that I said that I don't even feel like my standards are even that high--it's not as if I'm some film snob that just sits around watching Kurosawa and Fellini films all day or anything.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
I call.
What movie(s) do YOU consider worthy of your high standards? If you're just gonna take pot shots, at least set a baseline for comparison. |
Let's just talk movies that have come out since Snyder started directing, which was around, what 2000 or so?
Well, the movie that most recently kind of blew me away was Aronofsky's Black Swan. That was quite good, although it almost seemed like it was Aronofsky directing a David Lynch film.
Anything by Clint Eastwood. Post 2000, I'd say my favorite film by him would have been Letters from Iwo Jima.
Edgar Wright is pretty incredible. Shaun of the Dead is my least favorite of his, although I do really dig it. Hot Fuzz and Scott Pilgrim Vs. the World are comedy masterpieces though.
As far as straight action films go, Ryuhei Kitamura's Versus is pretty awesome, and notably done with very little (if any) special effects of any kind. There's a definite lack of the slow motion that the Wachowskis and Snyder are so slavingly into. I recently watched Grand Master Ip Man, (no idea who directed it) and that was a great old school style martial arts film.
I'd say though that my all time favorite director would be Danny Boyle. Just...anything he does is amazing. Slumdog Millionare and Sunshine are my two favorite movies by him, post 2000. (Still haven't seen 127 Hours yet--none of the theatres near me played it.)
I could go on and on. But I think any of those films are miles above anything Snyder has done. Because Snyder uses alot of slow motion and CG to make pretty films, well, I don't see how that makes him a good director or any of his movies any good because honestly, the same thing could be said about Michael Bay or the Wachowskis (whose films I also find painful to watch.) Essentially, I'll take a good story with some decent acting over a CG filled slow motion fest that is really nothing more than eye candy.
And yes, I've seen Watchmen (which Snyder actioned up for no good reason, and which never should have been put on film in the first place) and I've seen 300, which I'd almost be willing to say was good if the action wasn't so bogged down with slow motion, just making it boring to watch.
More than anything, I think that's my biggest problem with Snyder: He's a one trick pony, and it's a trick that the Wackowskis made dull before he even started directing. You watch something by Danny Boyle, and you never know what you'll get: Could be a sci-fi film, could be horror, could be a film about Scottish junkies, could be anything. Snyder--not so much. No matter the subject matter of his films, you know you'll end up getting the same stilted slow mo fest that he always produces. I hope--I really do, that I'm wrong and that his Superman film will be good, but...well, we'll see, I guess.
Here's the basic problem I'm having with the "Snyder = Bay" position:
I think there are quite a few directors BETTER than Snyder. But because I believe Bay is one of the absolute WORST directors working today I'm willing to elevate Synder into a position somewhere in the middle of the overall list. On a scale from 1 to 10 (1 being worse and 10 being best) I'd give Synder like a 5 or 6 and Bay a 1 (or less).
So while I don't think Synder is the best director ever I think it's grossly unfair to lump him in with the likes of Bay.
I'd bet telling a director "you're artistically just like Bay" would probably be taken as an insult in that industry. 
There's a reasonable enough difference between Bay and Synder to make a very obvious distinction between the two.
Why you're not seeing it is anyone's guess. *shrugs*
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Not liking a particular director's style doesn't mean he's a horrible director, or makes horrible movies. There's a far cry from saying "I don't care for his style" to saying "He's a hack and here's why you all should loathe him, and if you like him, you've got no taste in movies" which is what you've pretty much been saying the entire thread.|
Originally Posted by JeNeSaisQuoi
I could go on and on. But I think any of those films are miles above anything Snyder has done. Because Snyder uses alot of slow motion and CG to make pretty films, well, I don't see how that makes him a good director or any of his movies any good because honestly, the same thing could be said about Michael Bay or the Wachowskis (whose films I also find painful to watch.) Essentially, I'll take a good story with some decent acting over a CG filled slow motion fest that is really nothing more than eye candy. And yes, I've seen Watchmen (which Snyder actioned up for no good reason, and which never should have been put on film in the first place) and I've seen 300, which I'd almost be willing to say was good if the action wasn't so bogged down with slow motion, just making it boring to watch. More than anything, I think that's my biggest problem with Snyder: He's a one trick pony, and it's a trick that the Wackowskis made dull before he even started directing. You watch something by Danny Boyle, and you never know what you'll get: Could be a sci-fi film, could be horror, could be a film about Scottish junkies, could be anything. Snyder--not so much. No matter the subject matter of his films, you know you'll end up getting the same stilted slow mo fest that he always produces. I hope--I really do, that I'm wrong and that his Superman film will be good, but...well, we'll see, I guess. |
I don't subscribe to "if Director X made it, I'll avoid it no matter what." You miss good movies that way. There is no director that walks on water and creates gold with every movie, not even Spielberg or Hitchcock or any other big name you can think of.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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I won't ever reflexively say that "if Director X (like Bay for instance) made it I'll automatically avoid it no matter what".|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Not liking a particular director's style doesn't mean he's a horrible director, or makes horrible movies. There's a far cry from saying "I don't care for his style" to saying "He's a hack and here's why you all should loathe him, and if you like him, you've got no taste in movies" which is what you've pretty much been saying the entire thread.
I don't subscribe to "if Director X made it, I'll avoid it no matter what." You miss good movies that way. There is no director that walks on water and creates gold with every movie, not even Spielberg or Hitchcock or any other big name you can think of. |
Well maybe I'd say that for Uwe Boll, but there's always an exception to any rule...
On the other hand Bay (in particular) has laid a long enough track record of generally accepted cringe-worthy movies that chances are extremely high any of his future movies will be equally horrid. It's not like he's had a misstep or two - he has an established record of artistic awfulness. Basically Bay is at the point where he'd have to come up with something truly extraordinary to overturn all the bad marks against him so far. Frankly I don't see that happening.
Synder in contrast is no where near Bay's level of awfulness.
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I never said anything of the sort, as far as other people liking him goes. The closest I even came to implying anything like that was when I jokingly retorted to someone's statement about me not having a soul, and even then, all I said was that my standards kept me from watching any of Snyder's films.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Not liking a particular director's style doesn't mean he's a horrible director, or makes horrible movies. There's a far cry from saying "I don't care for his style" to saying "He's a hack and here's why you all should loathe him, and if you like him, you've got no taste in movies" which is what you've pretty much been saying the entire thread.
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How my personal standards equals me telling other people that they have bad taste...well, I'm not sure where you got that one. I've insulted Zack Snyder often enough, but I haven't insulted anyone for liking his movies. I've simply said that I don't, and why I don't. It's up to you whether or not you want to take personal offense to that.
And yeah, if a director uses the same technique over and over again to the point of becoming cartoonish, then yes, in my opinion, he is a hack. I don't even want to dislike Zack Snyder as I so badly want his Superman movie to be good, but he's not impressed me so far. I said this earlier, and I'll say it again: I want to be proven wrong about Snyder. I want the next Superman movie to be good. I hope like hell that he proves me wrong. I'm not geting my hopes up, but you never know and none of us will know until his Superman movie comes out.
So, seriously...calm down.
[QUOTE=Lothic;3405477]Here's the basic problem I'm having with the "Snyder = Bay" position:
I think there are quite a few directors BETTER than Snyder. But because I believe Bay is one of the absolute WORST directors working today I'm willing to elevate Synder into a position somewhere in the middle of the overall list. On a scale from 1 to 10 (1 being worse and 10 being best) I'd give Synder like a 5 or 6 and Bay a 1 (or less).
So while I don't think Synder is the best director ever I think it's grossly unfair to lump him in with the likes of Bay.
I'd bet telling a director "you're artistically just like Bay" would probably be taken as an insult in that industry.
There's a reasonable enough difference between Bay and Synder to make a very obvious distinction between the two.
Why you're not seeing it is anyone's guess. *shrugs*[/QUOTE
I'm repeating myself here, but here's my opinion of the two of them, so you know where I, personally, am coming from:
Bay: Loves slow motion
Snyder: Loves slow motion
Bay: Makes films with poorly written scripts
Snyder: Makes films with poorly written scripts
Bay: Uses terrible actors
Snyder: Uses terrible actors
Bay: Loves to make things explode
Judging from his new movie trailer,
Snyder: Loves to make things explode.
And to be fair, and not being a film school graduate or anything, maybe I'm simplifying things too much. But that's how I see thier movies. I never claimed to have any special training or anything that made my viewing of movies any more insightful than anyone else's.
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Although I liked Dawn of the Dead well enough -- it was no great shakes, but a passable remake -- and I enjoyed 300, I have to admit Watchmen bored the stuffing out of me. Granted, he did make a faithful rendition of the book and the changes he made didn't bother me much since the book should never have been filmed in the first place (it's like turning a Frost poem into a tap dance routine -- things are lost in the translation), but his excessive use of slow motion was gratuitous. Emulating The Wild Bunch isn't a good thing, in my opinion. Frankly, Sucker Punch looks like more of the same.|
Originally Posted by JeNeSaisQuoi
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Bay: Loves slow motion Snyder: Loves slow motion Bay: Makes films with poorly written scripts Snyder: Makes films with poorly written scripts Bay: Uses terrible actors Snyder: Uses terrible actors Bay: Loves to make things explode Judging from his new movie trailer, Snyder: Loves to make things explode. And to be fair, and not being a film school graduate or anything, maybe I'm simplifying things too much. But that's how I see thier movies. I never claimed to have any special training or anything that made my viewing of movies any more insightful than anyone else's. |
Snyder may have found his groove stylistically, but it's clear that style is polarizing: some like it, some don't. I don't have anything against it, provided he uses it sensibly. And yes, "sensibly" is a judgment call. Equating him with Bay, though... no way. Snyder may be veering into a Bay-like overwrought style, but he's merely verging on boring. Bay is actually offensive with his filmmaking. It's certainly worse to be boring than douchey, but Snyder hasn't descended into Bay's circle of hell yet.
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If you like this kind of thing, I hope it turns out to be something you enjoy. Snyder isn't my kind of director, I think. I don't see "stylized and edgy," I just see bullet time and weird. And bullet time. And a lot of gray. And bullet time.
I wouldn't compare Snyder to Bay though. Bay likes things so visually overloaded that even *with* bullet time you can't see what's going on. (Lensflare! Shakeycam! More lensflare! Motion blur IN the bullet time! Shakeycam with lensflare... in bullet time! With motion blur!)
*Edit*
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There's a few though, like Uwe Boll, who turn anything they touch into composting guano though.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
I don't subscribe to "if Director X made it, I'll avoid it no matter what." You miss good movies that way. There is no director that walks on water and creates gold with every movie, not even Spielberg or Hitchcock or any other big name you can think of. |
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Originally Posted by JeNeSaisQuoi
Honestly, and I'm not a student of film or anything
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Originally Posted by JeNeSaisQuoi
it's not as if I'm some film snob that just sits
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Originally Posted by JeNeSaisQuoi
And to be fair, and not being a film school graduate or anything
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We get it, you're not a film snob. You just dump on anything that has special effects and isn't a dialogue driven character piece.
I shall take your forum handle at face value, and bid you adieu.
And Happy New Year! Yay booze!
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My take on Snyder vs. Bay:
They both love special effects.
But Snyder has a real passion and love for the source material of the adaptions he's done.
Bay has shown that he doesn't give a damn about the source material as long as he can blow stuff up.
-np
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This is true.|
Originally Posted by NinjaPirate
My take on Snyder vs. Bay:
They both love special effects. But Snyder has a real passion and love for the source material of the adaptions he's done. Bay has shown that he doesn't give a damn about the source material as long as he can blow stuff up. -np |
However, Snyder does need to get his head out of his rear when it comes to the "cool factor," because people *are* tired of it. Coincidentally, 300 was just on TV so I was flipping back and forth between that and ball dropping stuff, and Snyder included slo-mo in shots for no reason whatsoever. Use it as a storytelling device, not just to vary the pace of shots, man. The 2-second shot of the horse riding away from Leonidas' camp didn't need to be in slow motion. Should've used it for the coins falling from the traitor's belt. To me, that sort of thing is just an error caused by trying too hard to look cool rather than telling the story. That was my main issue with Watchmen, too: many of the slow motion moments didn't help the story or characters at all, they seemed almost randomly inserted.
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Originally Posted by JeNeSaisQuoi
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Bay: Loves slow motion Snyder: Loves slow motion Bay: Makes films with poorly written scripts Snyder: Makes films with poorly written scripts Bay: Uses terrible actors Snyder: Uses terrible actors Bay: Loves to make things explode Judging from his new movie trailer, Snyder: Loves to make things explode. And to be fair, and not being a film school graduate or anything, maybe I'm simplifying things too much. But that's how I see thier movies. I never claimed to have any special training or anything that made my viewing of movies any more insightful than anyone else's. |
Tomatoes are a type of food grown from plants.
Scientifically speaking Bananas are classified as fruits.
Scientifically speaking Tomatoes are classified as fruits.
Bananas have peels that while edible are often removed before eating.
Tomatoes have peels that while edible are often removed before eating.
Banana peels tend to change color as they ripen.
Tomatoes peels tend to change color as they ripen.
Now with all those similarities would you actually say that bananas and tomatoes TASTE exactly the same?
Yes, I'd have to say your comparisons between Synder and Bay are GROSSLY oversimplified.
I don't really care if you don't like either one, but at least don't like them both for the reasonably obvious reasons...
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