A game of "What if?" - How to get smarter enemies

Warsuit X-5 · 12-20-2010 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg

Instead of having every enemy be "smart", how about having a few smart enemies? Maybe 25% of the mobs have the "smart" AI and get aggro from healing/buffs/debuffs/ugly costumes. That way the current dynamic isn't completely lost but a new element of surprise is tossed in the ring. It might spice up fights a bit.

This would be great. Some classes of mobs should always be dumb (Zombie/Cadaver/Ghoul minion type enemies, especially), some should be a challenge and tend to go after the buff/debuff/DPSers and be HARD for Taunt-bot Meatshield to pull (some endgame types), and some should be a mix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade

This is a good one. Another one that I've seen in some much older games was to manipulate the aggro list. The enemy normally focuses everything on the top of the list, you have aggro or you don't. But in a few older games the enemy would occasionally toss one attack at an enemy in the 2-4 range, then go back to the top of the list. If this was implemented in such a way as to keep them from running back and forth or losing a lot of tine with redraw it might spice things up some.

This also, would be great. I'd rather have better AI to make things interesting than smackjumpsmackbluedeath.

Dechs Kaison · 12-20-2010 07:14 AM

Thanks for the discussion, everyone. A lot of good ideas in this thread, and mine is certainly not one of them. Although it may be easy to add taunt effects to buffs, I strongly believe now that the overall effect would be bad.

I particularly like the idea of having some smart enemies. It'd be nice to have to worry about, for instance, particular mezzing minions or LTs that target support type characters, at least until a substantial amount of aggro has been and stays accumulated elsewhere.

The next best thing is the random change up. Enemy is aggro'd on the tank, but then randomly says "Oh, I'll hit guy number three on my list once." This is cool and interesting, but ... somewhat problematic. Since it's random, even a good team will fall victim to it. It doesn't require skill if it's all luck.

Maybe we just need some enemies that are resistant to taunt? I don't think it would be a good idea for the entire faction to be resistant, but a few minion/LTs might be healthy. It would present a challenge, but not an insurmountable one.

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Aett_Thorn · 12-20-2010 08:02 AM

Nemesis troops are actually a little bit resistant to Taunt, but a Tanker's aggro on them usually is so long that it doesn't matter. Remember the Threat formula in this game:

Threat = Damage * DebuffMod * RangeMod * AI Mod * AT Mod * (1,000 * TauntDurationRemaining)

Now, if you take a TauntDurationRemaining value of 45 seconds, that's 45,000 Threat by itself. Cutting that down 50% or so, to 22 seconds, still means a Threat of 22,000. That's going to be tough to overcome if you don't have a Taunt-like effect (and yes, I've seen the reports in this thread of Controllers and Defenders who can steal aggro with their debuffs, but I'm willing to bet all of the money in my pocket that those enemies that turn and fire at them haven't been affected by the 10-target capped aggro auras or the 5-target capped Taunt.

But what can we do to this formula to create "smarter" enemies without trivializing Tankers? Well, we could modify the AI Mod, for certain. We've been told by Castle before that while there could be AI mods that tell the enemy to go after Healers first, there's no enemy in the game that has that kind of code. But it could be done. Still, if you do that to too many enemies, as has been mentioned, you can make Tankers very redundant. Still, with some clever scripting, I'm sure that you could make some enemies go after the squishies.

The DebuffMod is probably not going to be changed. Most debuffs have a value of 2 (now, I'm not sure if that is 2 per debuff, or just a total of 2, meaning that something like Darkest Night and Siphon Power would have the same value, or Darkest Night would have twice the DebuffMod), and changing that seems unlikely. And the recent change to Tanker's inherent, Bruising, has basically given them all the ability to double their Threat rating, since the tier 1 powers all do a debuff now.

Damage, AT Mods, and RangeMods are all unlikely to change, for what I'd say are fairly obvious reasons.

So, that brings us back to TauntDurationRemaining. What could be done on some enemies is something akin to the Purple Triangles of Doom. However, instead of creating Mez Protection, it removes the TauntDurationRemaining part of the Threat formula for a few seconds. Allowing them to take shots at other players, unless the Tanker is also doing some damage or something else to keep the enemies' attention.

However, this would be somewhat problematic, because it would severely hinder some Tanks (like a WP/EM Tanker) while doing very little to others (say, a Fire/Fire Tanker). So this wouldn't be a perfect solution, but it could make some encounters a little trickier. It still does nothing to the enemy to make them target team buffers, but it could make things a little chaotic.

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Kelenar · 12-20-2010 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

I particularly like the idea of having some smart enemies. It'd be nice to have to worry about, for instance, particular mezzing minions or LTs that target support type characters, at least until a substantial amount of aggro has been and stays accumulated elsewhere.

The next best thing is the random change up. Enemy is aggro'd on the tank, but then randomly says "Oh, I'll hit guy number three on my list once." This is cool and interesting, but ... somewhat problematic. Since it's random, even a good team will fall victim to it. It doesn't require skill if it's all luck.

There are some changes I can see that would increase difficulty while still relying more on skill/knowledge than luck. Make enemies with AoEs still target the tanker if taunted, but maneuver to try getting squishies in the blast area too if possible. As a side effect, this would make immobilizes more valuable. Or make enemies scatter a little, with some of them staying as far at range as possible, to cut down the effectiveness of player AoEs. (This, though, would decrease the value of AoEs and thus maybe require some rebalancing. Or maybe not, depending on just how much you buy into AoE being strictly better than ST.)

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Deus_Otiosus · 12-20-2010 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auroxis

The heart of the problem is that sometimes Tankers don't fit in a team, as their Taunt isn't needed. Bruising was added to address that problem somewhat, but while Tankers are more viable now, all bruising did was to make tankers a bigger damage contribution on steamroller teams, and didn't help make their tank role more important on said teams.

I have to just emphatically disagree with you.

Tankers, at this point, have every possible advantage they could have as an AT to perform a specific function.

They stand out, head and shoulders with every possible mitigation advantage. The nearest AT (Brutes) in a straight up mitigation comparison are not even in the same league.

Their ability to draw aggro requires barely any effort on the part of the player and then they got a free, -20% debuff against ST targets.

They don't need more improvements

The Tank role doesn't need to be more important, it is not some special god-given role that requires a full on monopoly (not in this game anyway).

Controllers, Corrs, Defenders and to a lesser Extent MMs all share "support" functions, VEATs also make a decent showing in here as well.

Every AT brings at least some kind of damage to the table.

Controllers & Doms share the bulk of hard crowd control.

Tankers, Brutes & to a lesser extent Scrappers share aggro duty.

This is what is good about this game, multiple ATs can perform multiple roles.

It grants a level of team composition freedom that is extremely rare in MMOs.

For the record, I'd love to see more intelligent AI for enemies.

It would mean the devs could stop throwing gallons of endless debuffs, and "cheat" tactics to increase "challenge" (semi-unresistable, auto-hit patches of death - I'm looking at you).

We will likely never see it, not in a game that throws this many (cannon fodder) enemies at you at once.

Rinkoz · 12-20-2010 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

We all know that buffs and debuffs are extremely powerful in this game. The only problem is, the enemies don't seem to notice. Clearly, smart enemies would attack the force field defender first, most notably because he has the least defense. Think about an ITF - we all know to hit the surgeons to make it easier to take out the Elite Bosses. The problem is, the way aggro is calculated, there's no way for the enemy to figure that out.

So here's my question: what if player targeted or PBAoE buffs also had a taunt component?

First, I realize it's way too radical of a change to ever get implemented. This is all rhetorical and pretendy fun time games.

Just think about it for a moment. What would it actually do? The empathy defender uses Heal Other on a player, which creates a gauntlet like taunt to five enemies within a radius of that player. PBAoE buffs, like Accelerate Metabolism or Mind Link taunt any enemy in radius of the heal. Toggle powers like Dispersion Bubble, even the one FFG produces, become slight taunt auras.

I think this would produce an effect of seemingly smarter enemies. Suddenly the real threats become easier to see. "Hey, I'm not going to kill anyone while that FFG is giving the team softcapped defenses." It may force us to play smarter, or make good tanks more valuable.

What do you think?

I dunno man it sounds great to me but when u mess with people's "put it in a closed in group and blow it up" formula ppl it would force out all the noobs who dont have to think whatsoever to kill things and spam "lvl 1 blaster boss farm!!" and the tanks who don't take taunt and......wait those are all good things.

Dechs Kaison · 12-20-2010 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

This is what is good about this game, multiple ATs can perform multiple roles.

It grants a level of team composition freedom that is extremely rare in MMOs.

Yeah, I have to admit, this is one of my favorite things about the game. No matter what, I wouldn't want anything to push us into a realm where the MMO trinity becomes holy again.

I'd just like to see some smarter enemies. Mag 100 hold DoTs don't count as challenge. Give me something I have to react to, not something I need to pray doesn't hit me or have ten stacks of clarity/thaw/clear mind for.

If the tank or scrapper or even the blaster has to target a specific minion/LT/boss because that minion/LT/boss is going to aim right for the buffer keeping everyone alive, that's challenge. That's keeping us on our toes.

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Diggis · 12-20-2010 10:16 AM

I would like to see some more simple tactics from enemies. Maybe not minions, they are minions for a reason, but definitely for LT and Bosses. Something that would occasionally make them head for the blaster that has done all the damage to them so far or the controller who keeps holding them. If someone is constantly hitting you you deal with it, not with their bag of hitpoints friend.

Warsuit X-5 · 12-20-2010 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

I'd just like to see some smarter enemies. Mag 100 hold DoTs don't count as challenge. Give me something I have to react to, not something I need to pray doesn't hit me or have ten stacks of clarity/thaw/clear mind for.

If the tank or scrapper or even the blaster has to target a specific minion/LT/boss because that minion/LT/boss is going to aim right for the buffer keeping everyone alive, that's challenge. That's keeping us on our toes.

I'd say that a SPECIFIC enemy type is a bad idea (enemy name XYZ). Too easy to fix that way, just a keybind to find the enemy of that type, snipe him, steam roll him, or whatever.

I'd like some randomness to it. Ideally, I'd want some of most enemy types to have both a random chance of being smart, and some specifically smarter types, and a few random hits to keep things interesting.

To keep in with comic book reality, I'd actually expect minions and lieutenants to be more random, and make firefights more chaotic. While I'd expect the elite boss/AVs to concentrate on the big blue muscular spandex-clad guy in the red cape.

But when the yellow-skinned, green-eyed princess of Tamaran blasts him with her tier 9 nuke, the AV should turn, blast once or twice to warn her off/injure her...or turn her into VENGEANCE BAIT, then go back to dealing with the big blue guy who just...never falls down.

Silas · 12-20-2010 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

I'd just like to see some smarter enemies. Mag 100 hold DoTs don't count as challenge. Give me something I have to react to, not something I need to pray doesn't hit me or have ten stacks of clarity/thaw/clear mind for.

If the tank or scrapper or even the blaster has to target a specific minion/LT/boss because that minion/LT/boss is going to aim right for the buffer keeping everyone alive, that's challenge. That's keeping us on our toes.

I wonder if it would be possible to take a page out of Guild Wars book got this. Specifically, an AI preference to targeting low hitpoint characters. All things being equal, the mobs would take a shot at the Blaster/Controller/Corr/etc. Makes sense for Blasters and Stalkers too, since they're capable of sizable spike damage. MMs would be a priority target, but they've got an army of pets and BG mode.

I'm not saying mobs should ignore the Tanker/whoever, this is based on all things being equal. If a Defender and a Tanker are both in range of an agreed mob but neither have done anything to it, (debuffs/attacks/Taunt), then the mob would likely go for the Defender.

As a Tanker/Brute/Scrapper, you can make sure the squishiest don't get aggro by Taunting/smashing/whatever. As a squishy, you can minimize the likelihood of getting targeted by being more cautious/+hp accolades and IOing for +hp.

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Kelenar · 12-20-2010 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

If the tank or scrapper or even the blaster has to target a specific minion/LT/boss because that minion/LT/boss is going to aim right for the buffer keeping everyone alive, that's challenge. That's keeping us on our toes.

Well, really, we have some of these kinds of things right now. Sorcerors, Surgeons, Sappers... enemies that you need to smash hard and smash early or they can dramatically change the course of a fight. I don't see how an enemy that would go straight for buffers/debuffers would be that different, really. Just another entry on the list of priority targets.

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Deus_Otiosus · 12-20-2010 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

I'd just like to see some smarter enemies. Mag 100 hold DoTs don't count as challenge. Give me something I have to react to, not something I need to pray doesn't hit me or have ten stacks of clarity/thaw/clear mind for.

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

If the tank or scrapper or even the blaster has to target a specific minion/LT/boss because that minion/LT/boss is going to aim right for the buffer keeping everyone alive, that's challenge. That's keeping us on our toes.

You might have it with the blaster, but when it comes to neutralizing a dangerous single target - my first choice would be a Controller or a Dom.

You know it occurred to me while reading this thread that all of my support characters seem to get more than their fair share of aggro.

And then I remembered I play redside exclusively, and have been for well over a year (edit: aside from Co-op TFs).

All of my "support" characters are offense heavy corrupters.

My Fire/Rad Corr for example usually has more aggro than he wants.

In some way, wanting more intelligent enemies to challenge the ease with which a Tanker can generate aggro is what you're looking for.

A lot of the culprit is possibly gauntlet itself, combined with an Aggro generating aura and Taunt - holding an entire spawn is a cake walk for most Tankers.

I think the reason you might feel, as a tanker player, that you don't have enough to react to, is because Tankers don't really need to react all that much.

You're practically unkillable outside of special encounters, and have multiple ways of generating threat that simply do not require any real effort.

Pre-Going Rogue redside teams never had this luxury. Brutes would spawn dive, but would often need their team to be right behind them bringing to bear debuffs, controls or a quick death to keep everyone on the team alive.

This is why I've always preferred redside, every combat is a full on assault - everybody in, everybody fights.

Anyway, back to the topic.

Outside of AI changes or designating "squishy hunter" mobs, something that could help is more AoE attacks, especially PBAoE damage auras.

Having several mobs that do AoE damage can help bring damage to bear on the squishies, but it has to be AoE damage that doesn't require perfect positioning to make the most of and it has to be used in situations that prevent you from simply hover blasting at extreme range to avoid it.

Dechs Kaison · 12-20-2010 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelenar

Well, really, we have some of these kinds of things right now. Sorcerors, Surgeons, Sappers... enemies that you need to smash hard and smash early or they can dramatically change the course of a fight. I don't see how an enemy that would go straight for buffers/debuffers would be that different, really. Just another entry on the list of priority targets.

Very good point. My only counter point is that, a lot of times, we just ignore the trouble mobs. Surgeons and Sorcerers, if left unchecked, are at best a nuisance that make it take longer to kill other stuff. Only the sappers can genuinely cause teamwipes, but certainly not if the aggro guy has end drain protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

I think the reason you might feel, as a tanker player, that you don't have enough to react to, is because Tankers don't really need to react all that much.

You're practically unkillable outside of special encounters, and have multiple ways of generating threat that simply do not require any real effort.

You've hit the nail on the head here. And outside of ungodly sized ambushes, there is no aggro in the game I can't control. Presenting me with more enemies than an aggro cap can hold is on par with the mag 100 DoT cheat, as well.

Just brainstorming at this point:

A faction of enemies that debuff range and have many melee PBAoE powers. Perhaps make the range debuff be an aura power so it doesn't matter who they are aggro'd on.

Enemies that debuff a tank/scrapper/brute's ability to taunt. In fact, how about some enemies that debuff our buffs and heals similar to poison and cold domination?

What else can we think of?

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Deus_Otiosus · 12-20-2010 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

You've hit the nail on the head here. And outside of ungodly sized ambushes, there is no aggro in the game I can't control. Presenting me with more enemies than an aggro cap can hold is on par with the mag 100 DoT cheat, as well.

Actually, the MOAR enemies tactic is my favorite.

It's generally more fun (for me), but it also means that you can have more than one Tanker/Brute on a team and they can all be relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

Just brainstorming at this point:

A faction of enemies that debuff range and have many melee PBAoE powers. Perhaps make the range debuff be an aura power so it doesn't matter who they are aggro'd on.

They don't even need to debuff range really, they can just have an obnoxious level of Ranged DEF - effectively ranged softcapped hover blasters - except being used against the player. (Rikti Drones function like this, with high DEF vs. both Melee & ranged, but little AoE def).

Still this does nothing against many of the best debuffs which are often auto-hit toggles or patches, and it does nothing to generate threat for buffers who buff once and go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

Enemies that debuff a tank/scrapper/brute's ability to taunt. In fact, how about some enemies that debuff our buffs and heals similar to poison and cold domination?

What else can we think of?

Taunt resistance, possibly a very scary pandora's box to open.

Kelenar · 12-20-2010 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

Just brainstorming at this point:

A faction of enemies that debuff range and have many melee PBAoE powers. Perhaps make the range debuff be an aura power so it doesn't matter who they are aggro'd on.

Enemies that debuff a tank/scrapper/brute's ability to taunt. In fact, how about some enemies that debuff our buffs and heals similar to poison and cold domination?

What else can we think of?

Enemies with large cones. We actually already have this in Malta. I was once on a team of 8 where we had very few buffs. The Tanker stood between the group and a spawn and taunted. Half the squishies were instantly wiped out by a few Gunslingers doing cone attacks at the tank.

Enemies with Chain Induction style powers, especially if they have a delay between jumps. Make players pay attention to who's 'infected' and keep their distance as needed.

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Dechs Kaison · 12-20-2010 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

Actually, the MOAR enemies tactic is my favorite.

It's generally more fun (for me), but it also means that you can have more than one Tanker/Brute on a team and they can all be relevant.

I have to admit, it is a lot of fun. It just becomes annoying on Master attempts when you know that there's nothing you can conceivably do to prevent deaths. It's one of my pet peeves with Mo*TFs. If the requirement is 'no deaths,' then don't give the enemy "you die I win" buttons. I think that's more my problem than anything. I like the direction the new Master rules have taken, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

They don't even need to debuff range really, they can just have an obnoxious level of Ranged DEF - effectively ranged softcapped hover blasters - except being used against the player. (Rikti Drones function like this, with high DEF vs. both Melee & ranged, but little AoE def).

Well, having an obnoxious level of ranged defense introduces the problem that defenders/corruptors/controllers don't really have melee attacks to be able to hit them with at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

Taunt resistance, possibly a very scary pandora's box to open.

This I would like to see. Perhaps an entire faction that resisted taunt.

Black Scorpion and Mako already resist taunt, I believe. It makes them hard to hold on to, especially Mako since he dodges a lot, but judicious use of taunt keeps them held.

I want different challenges, that's all. Maybe we need groups that summon lots of underlings. Perhaps enemies that stay at range to resist clumping up for easy pickings.

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Deus_Otiosus · 12-20-2010 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

What else can we think of?

Something that popped in my head is better use of environment.

This would require specific scripts for enemies, and couldn't be used game wide - but it could be used to add greater challenge to last battles on TFs and such.

Most final battles in this game are just one big room, or open area with a bunch of mobs that either clump up instantly or clump up after a taunt or AoE from a threat-machine.

I think this is a better avenue to explore than enemy AI.

Looking at the sad state of MM pet AI, something tells me that it's these kinds of things that would actually be possible.

Dechs Kaison · 12-20-2010 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

Something that popped in my head is better use of environment.

How about frequently respawning turrets that target the nearest player character?

Terrain that causes debuffs or DoT only to players, or buffs the enemies while they stand on it?

What about having enemies with short range PBAoE buffs to each other to make the standard clumping tactic a very bad one?

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Adeon Hawkwood · 12-20-2010 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

What about having enemies with short range PBAoE buffs to each other to make the standard clumping tactic a very bad one?

The Romans have Phalanx Fighting which is technically this. Honestly though I don't think it would be a good method overall. The problem (IMHO) is that we don't really have access to enough fine aggro management tools to really accomplish this. In order to make this work I think you'd need most characters to have taunt powers and while people could start taking Presence (and specifically Confront) more it seems to go against the idea of forcing players into specific builds.

In general I'd also argue against changes to the Taunt mechanic. While I don't particularly like the mechanic as it is (I think it's to easy for Tankers to hold aggro) making it harder for Tankers to hold aggro seems to me to actually make the problem worse. Tanks are, at the moment, pretty much optional for a lot of content anyway so making them even worse doesn't seem like a good solution.

Kractis_Sky · 12-20-2010 12:42 PM

Maybe it was just me, but I think some of these tactics are being used by "The Resistance." They seem to use the leadership pool* and Devices from blaster secondary very effectively. Try approaching them with the difficulty up to at least +2**. If they would throw a special-ops lieut or minion that would launch pre-emptive strikes from group hide using their +acc/+to-hit to see us coming from afar... wow (blaster primary with hide/assassin's strike as part of a secondary). Even setting traps like mines and stuff. We've already seen what vanguard and longbow can do.

*does leadership for enemies have the same benefits it has for us (resist taunt, etc)?

**I *try* to make a point of experimenting with the difficulty slider with new content. It's crazy to see how powerful some enemies get.

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Auroxis · 12-20-2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky

Maybe it was just me, but I think some of these tactics are being used by "The Resistance." They seem to use the leadership pool* and Devices from blaster secondary very effectively. Try approaching them with the difficulty up to at least +2**. If they would throw a special-ops lieut or minion that would launch pre-emptive strikes from group hide using their +acc/+to-hit to see us coming from afar... wow. We've already seen what vanguard and longbow can do.

*does leadership for enemies have the same benefits it has for us?

**I *try* to make a point of experimenting with the difficulty slider with new content. It's crazy to see how powerful some enemies get.

I remember a mission that had a big room with a bunch of resistance mobs. My team and I didn't know about the leadership stacking going on. Being confident in our team(lots of +def buffs going on), we just charged in. A minute later, we were asking ourselves face down on the floor and cursor hovering the hosp button, "What the hell were the devs thinking?".

And as annoying as that experience may be, I would like to experience it more than once.

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Kractis_Sky · 12-20-2010 02:15 PM

Yep, that was it. Reminded me of a Predator movie watching them fade back into the background with their targeting drones. And I agree, I love seeing new enemies with new powers requiring new stratagies.

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LostHalo · 12-20-2010 02:50 PM

I notice one thing that hasn't been mentioned: Banished Pantheon Death Masks. They already have kind of a unique status in their taunt immunity and single-mindedness.

Not really any sort of suggestion, just something to consider.

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EvilRyu · 12-20-2010 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

We all know that buffs and debuffs are extremely powerful in this game. The only problem is, the enemies don't seem to notice. Clearly, smart enemies would attack the force field defender first, most notably because he has the least defense. Think about an ITF - we all know to hit the surgeons to make it easier to take out the Elite Bosses. The problem is, the way aggro is calculated, there's no way for the enemy to figure that out.

So here's my question: what if player targeted or PBAoE buffs also had a taunt component?

First, I realize it's way too radical of a change to ever get implemented. This is all rhetorical and pretendy fun time games.

Just think about it for a moment. What would it actually do? The empathy defender uses Heal Other on a player, which creates a gauntlet like taunt to five enemies within a radius of that player. PBAoE buffs, like Accelerate Metabolism or Mind Link taunt any enemy in radius of the heal. Toggle powers like Dispersion Bubble, even the one FFG produces, become slight taunt auras.

I think this would produce an effect of seemingly smarter enemies. Suddenly the real threats become easier to see. "Hey, I'm not going to kill anyone while that FFG is giving the team softcapped defenses." It may force us to play smarter, or make good tanks more valuable.

What do you think?

Alot of other MMOs have way better AI than our mobs. Namely one is for buffs/heals/debuffs. If mobs were programmed to come after the healers first this would make folks stop rocking the aura the whole mission and only heal as needed. Second it would force tankers to take taunt, something I am very much for. Too many times I had to explain to tanks that aggro aura's and guantlet is not enough for AVs, taunt is the only thing that works 100% of the time. Tanker with and without taunt is a huge difference as for as avs are concerned. Second this would finally put debuffs on the same level as buffs in terms of how it helps the team. Debuffs have to deal with level scaling while buffs dont, but if buffs caused aggro too then you would not see favortism towards buffers anymore. I am all for smarter mobs. Its really over due at this point since now the devs are running out of ideas to make fights harder. We get stuck with mobs that cheat since we have crappy AI. If there was better AI we would not have to deal with annoyances like Hero-1/Statesman/M.Bison's perma unstoppable, Battle Maiden's cheat patches of doom, Trapdoor being buffed to the point where you pretty much have to cheat to beat him.

Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator

Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!

Deus_Otiosus · 12-20-2010 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

I have to admit, it is a lot of fun. It just becomes annoying on Master attempts when you know that there's nothing you can conceivably do to prevent deaths. It's one of my pet peeves with Mo*TFs. If the requirement is 'no deaths,' then don't give the enemy "you die I win" buttons.

Well, in the end, you personally are not always supposed to be able to do something to prevent those deaths.

At some point, each player is responsible for keeping themselves alive.

I've never subscribed to the idea that the Tanker (or Brute) has to keep every single team mate alive mentality, because I think it makes for bad players (of other ATs, the ones being kept alive while they /faceroll on their keyboards).

This goes without mentioning that a good controller or dom, as well as another Brute or Tanker, or aggro aura having Scrapper - can all go to keeping massive groups in check.

If you really are finding holding aggro and not dying too easy, you should really get yourself Brute.

This goes back to that tightrope with no net discussion we had a few weeks ago.