You think it's time to rethink how the IO system works.
Great.
Do you have a solution? Otherwise this is more of a pointless rant than a suggestion or idea.
Done.
Seriously. As far as I am aware your rant is pointless. IO bonuses are already available at lower levels. In fact all slots in a power are still active as long as that power is active. So for example earlier I did an Abandoned Sewer Trial on my level 50 Tank. Since the Trial is only up to level 40 I was exemplared to that level while still retaining my powers up 5 levels (so I had all my powers up to 45) This left out Combustion and Incineration for me. I couldn't use those powers so I wasn't getting the IO set bonuses from them, but I still kept all the other bonuses from all the other powers I had. This continues on downward all the way to level 1. If you get Exemplared to level 1 and have level 50 IOs in the powers you retain at that level they're still in effect. I can say this with pretty much 100% certainty because I have a level 50 Devastation: Chance for Hold proc in my Cold/Ice Defender's Ice Blast and have witnessed firsthand I'm still able to catch enemies with its hold no matter my level.
I don't see the problem here. Unless I am completely wrong about all of the above in which case I will welcome someone to say as such. I was told long ago it didn't matter the level of the IO or the level at which the enhancement slot was placed, all that mattered was the level that you gained said power at.
@LightofthePhoenix - Virtue server
http://riskovinsheen.deviantart.com/
Light of the Phoenix - lvl 50 Fire/Emp Controller; Snow Panther - lvl 50 Cold/Ice Defender; Dragonfly. - lvl 50 Willpower/Fire Tanker; Magic Minx - lvl 50 Ill/Rad Controller; Dust Walker - lvl 50 Storm/Dark (Sand) Defender; And more...
http://riskovinsheen.deviantart.com/
Light of the Phoenix - lvl 50 Fire/Emp Controller; Snow Panther - lvl 50 Cold/Ice Defender; Dragonfly. - lvl 50 Willpower/Fire Tanker; Magic Minx - lvl 50 Ill/Rad Controller; Dust Walker - lvl 50 Storm/Dark (Sand) Defender; And more...
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You are completely wrong about all of the above.|
Originally Posted by Risko_Vinsheen
Done.
Seriously. As far as I am aware your rant is pointless. IO bonuses are already available at lower levels. In fact all slots in a power are still active as long as that power is active. So for example earlier I did an Abandoned Sewer Trial on my level 50 Tank. Since the Trial is only up to level 40 I was exemplared to that level while still retaining my powers up 5 levels (so I had all my powers up to 45) This left out Combustion and Incineration for me. I couldn't use those powers so I wasn't getting the IO set bonuses from them, but I still kept all the other bonuses from all the other powers I had. This continues on downward all the way to level 1. If you get Exemplared to level 1 and have level 50 IOs in the powers you retain at that level they're still in effect. I can say this with pretty much 100% certainty because I have a level 50 Devastation: Chance for Hold proc in my Cold/Ice Defender's Ice Blast and have witnessed firsthand I'm still able to catch enemies with its hold no matter my level. I don't see the problem here. Unless I am completely wrong about all of the above in which case I will welcome someone to say as such. I was told long ago it didn't matter the level of the IO or the level at which the enhancement slot was placed, all that mattered was the level that you gained said power at. |
When you exemplar down, you keep all the slots in all of the powers you still have access to, and all of those slots provide their enhancement values to their powers (though at a reduced amount if you exemplar below a certain point).
When you exemplar below the level that you could first equip an IO, it stops counting towards set bonuses. So, if you exemplar to 46 and one of your enhancements is 50, you only have up to the 5-piece bonus. If all pieces are 50, you lose all the bonuses at level 46 and lower. The same is true for individual pieces that give a constant effect that is not triggered by use, such as the Knockback Protection IOs.
Special IOs that are triggered by use (Stealth, Miracle: +Recovery, etc) function as long as you have access to the power, regardless of their level.
Set bonuses remain in effect, even if you lose the power they were slotted in. If you take Physical Perfection at 49 and slot 2 level 21 Performance Shifters in it, and then exemplar down to 18, you will still have the Movement Bonus.
Purples and PVP IOs grant their set bonuses at all levels, regardless of how low you exemplar, or if you have access to the power it's slotted in.
Full details on how exemplaring affects your enhancements can be found here.
@Roderick
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No he isn't. The part about the OP not having a suggestion is correct. All the OP has posted is that he wants the IO system changed. Now I wouldn't go so far as to call it a rant, but just saying he thinks it should be changed isn't a suggestion.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
You are completely wrong about all of the above.
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The person I quoted listed a bunch of misinformation about how sets work, and that was the basis of saying that the rant was pointless. They then said "Unless I am completely wrong about all of the above in which case I will welcome someone to say as such."
Which I did.
@Roderick
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Got into an... okay... it was an argument... with somebody in a global chat channel over a matter similar to what you typed. I'm going to be blunt and say that I call every enhancement with a special effect a "proc"|
Originally Posted by Roderick
The person I quoted listed a bunch of misinformation about how sets work, and that was the basis of saying that the rant was pointless. They then said "Unless I am completely wrong about all of the above in which case I will welcome someone to say as such."
Which I did. |
Now, to be honest, I do this because up until about 3 or 4 weeks ago when I wandered into a (new for me) global channel, I had never encountered anybody who called them anything else. Everybody I knew on the servers I played on, and everybody I knew from other MMO's such as Warhammer, Guild Wars, Planetside, PSO, PSU, EQ, EQ2, Lineage II, and even FFXI also referred to any invention origin enhancement with a special effec as a proc.
Because there are two types of procedural enhancements in the game, those that apply a buff stat, and those that apply an effect, there is of course some confusion about when an Enhancement Proc is in effect.
I differ between the two as a level-based proc and a power-based proc.
- Level based procs are based on the level of the enhancement itself.
- Power based procs are based on when the power is used.
- If the enhancement procedural effect is a chance for something to happen, the enhancement is dependent on the power being active.
- If the enhancement procedural effect is based on a certain amount of time, such as 120 seconds, the enhancement is dependent on the power being active.
- If the enhancement has no conditions, it is dependent on the level of the player in relation to the level of the enhancement.
Lesse... level 28 LoTG in Vengeance...
Combat Attributes @ Level 50 :: All powers are active, all LoTG's adding buffs.
Combat Attributes @ Level 29 :: Maneuvers and Vengeance greyed out, all LoTG's still adding buffs
Combat Attributes @ level 20 :: LoTG buffs have ceased.
So, as can be seen, the global stat buffs are dependent on the level of the player. Exemp, and they go bai bai.
* * *
As far as the original post goes, I'm not sure what to say. The developers made a pretty deliberate design choice to limit IO set-buffs to the same restrictions as slotting the enhancement itself.
E
- enhancements with lower levels offer IO bonus's at lower levels, but the individual power is weaker
- Enhancements with higher levels offer IO bonus's at higher levels, and the individual power is stronger
The last couple of times a "we need to rework the IO system NAO" type of thread came along, they were normally started by players who wanted to get rid of "trade-offs" in the game.
What I mean is that most of these suggestions are created by players who have entitlement problems. I think Ocho deleted the thread I was going to point to, but a good example of this was the recent trainwreck in which a poster with massive entitlement issues called the programmers lazy, and declared that the incarnate system was an insult to skilled players.
Such players demanded that the IO system be reworked so that they could have really strong powers AND really strong IO buffs at really low levels. This is something the developers are reticent to implement on a wide-scale level. Thing is, the game already has purple and pvp io sets that break the normal laws of enhancements, offering really strong powers and really strong IO buffs at lower levels.
Now, if you want to make the argument that the purple obtention system is broken and needs to be rethought, I'd agree with you for my own reasons.
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I always figured the reason the lower level ones where more expensive, is most people level beyond them, and thusly, less rewards for that level :/
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
I have a serious issues with the Invention System. Because we have a system that is designed to place IOs at a particular level you receive lower values for that IO because it is a lower level. However we also have an exemplar system which allows you to go back and do other content. The issue I have is that this often makes the lower IO's more valuable than the higher value IO's. Also I have an issue when I roll for recipes with Merits or AE Tickets I set the value at level 35-39 but if I am level 50, I get a level 50 IO. Now if I roll an entire set of something like I did with some Positrons I only get the bonuses at higher levels not lower ones.
This system seems somewhat backwards to me. Its like it penalizes higher level rolls making them less valuable and less desirable. I think its time to really rethink how the IO system works. Just my thought for the day. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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While I did make mention of procs and globals (BTW, the latter term has been in use since I started over 3 years ago. For a long time, I thought "proc" only referred to damage procs; I didn't realize that there were buff and debuff procs too. But that's irrelevant to this discussion), Risko wasn't talking about them. They stated that all set bonuses exemplared all the way down to 1, regardless of what type of set they came from or what level they were.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Got into an... okay... it was an argument... with somebody in a global chat channel over a matter similar to what you typed. I'm going to be blunt and say that I call every enhancement with a special effect a "proc"
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And before anyone else gets snarky about it (Not saying you did, saist): The "You are completely wrong" comment was a joke in response to him/her saying "Unless I am completely wrong about all of the above in which case I will welcome someone to say as such." Yes, I realize that there was correct information mixed in with the inaccuracies. It was a joke.
@Roderick
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You consider lower level IOs more valuable. Others do not. Don't get me wrong, I prefer IOs that are in the level 35ish range, because I don't exemplar below 40 that often. In fact, I hardly exemplar at all. Some people never exemplar, and the enhancement values of level 50 IOs are more valuable to them. |
Originally Posted by Airhammer
The issue I have is that this often makes the lower IO's more valuable than the higher value IO's.
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Head to the market, and you'll see the highest level IOs of any set are, more often than not, selling for more. Procs and Uniques are generally the exception to the rule. So, to change anything you're talking about would mainly serve your purpose more so than that of the gaming majority.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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This doesn't really require rethinking the entire IO system, just the Random Roll system. For example: How about making the "give me an IO of this level exactly" slider work with random rolls the same as it does with purchases?
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Also I have an issue when I roll for recipes with Merits or AE Tickets I set the value at level 35-39 but if I am level 50, I get a level 50 IO. Now if I roll an entire set of something like I did with some Positrons I only get the bonuses at higher levels not lower ones.
This system seems somewhat backwards to me. Its like it penalizes higher level rolls making them less valuable and less desirable. |
Character index
My opinion: I think this was a design choice to keep lowbie characters more desirable to play. I can't say the outcome is exactly that, but this is the impression I get.
At first glance Silver Gale's suggestion looks pretty good to me.
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Agreed... The random roll should give out the level you are seeking.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
This doesn't really require rethinking the entire IO system, just the Random Roll system. For example: How about making the "give me an IO of this level exactly" slider work with random rolls the same as it does with purchases?
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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The problem there is: What if the recipe the random roll generates doesn't exist at that level? |
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
This doesn't really require rethinking the entire IO system, just the Random Roll system. For example: How about making the "give me an IO of this level exactly" slider work with random rolls the same as it does with purchases?
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Say you set your random roll generator to level 33, and you roll in the 30-35 range. What happens if it gives you an Eradication? Eradication caps at 30. Now it could do what it does now, and give you the max level, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of "give me a recipe of exactly this level". It could end up creating a bug in which, if the recipe it rolls doesn't exist at the level you chose, you get nothing at all and still lose the merits. (for all we know, that may be exactly why it doesn't already work like you suggest)
Besides, I think that's why random rolls are as relatively cheap as they are, because you don't get to choose the level. If you could, they would probably be more like 30-35 merits instead of 20.
For the record, I don't really care too much one way or the other. It just makes sense to consider why it might be the way it is. There could be a very good reason it works like this, and we just haven't been told what it is.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I thought it was 20 Merits for a random roll, because they figured 74 minutes was a good average to equal the random recipe we used to get at the end of TFs.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The problem there is: What if the recipe the random roll generates doesn't exist at that level?
Say you set your random roll generator to level 33, and you roll in the 30-35 range. What happens if it gives you an Eradication? Eradication caps at 30. Now it could do what it does now, and give you the max level, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of "give me a recipe of exactly this level". It could end up creating a bug in which, if the recipe it rolls doesn't exist at the level you chose, you get nothing at all and still lose the merits. (for all we know, that may be exactly why it doesn't already work like you suggest) Besides, I think that's why random rolls are as relatively cheap as they are, because you don't get to choose the level. If you could, they would probably be more like 30-35 merits instead of 20. For the record, I don't really care too much one way or the other. It just makes sense to consider why it might be the way it is. There could be a very good reason it works like this, and we just haven't been told what it is. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I've honestly never seen that big a drop in my effectiveness when exemplared that would lead me to believe we lost our set bonuses. Then again I'm not a min/maxer and don't pay that much attention to them anyways so apologies for my false claims. Carry on. :P
@LightofthePhoenix - Virtue server
http://riskovinsheen.deviantart.com/
Light of the Phoenix - lvl 50 Fire/Emp Controller; Snow Panther - lvl 50 Cold/Ice Defender; Dragonfly. - lvl 50 Willpower/Fire Tanker; Magic Minx - lvl 50 Ill/Rad Controller; Dust Walker - lvl 50 Storm/Dark (Sand) Defender; And more...
http://riskovinsheen.deviantart.com/
Light of the Phoenix - lvl 50 Fire/Emp Controller; Snow Panther - lvl 50 Cold/Ice Defender; Dragonfly. - lvl 50 Willpower/Fire Tanker; Magic Minx - lvl 50 Ill/Rad Controller; Dust Walker - lvl 50 Storm/Dark (Sand) Defender; And more...
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They were 30 in beta. I don't know what prompted the change though, nor do I know if they ever said what prompted it.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I thought it was 20 Merits for a random roll, because they figured 74 minutes was a good average to equal the random recipe we used to get at the end of TFs.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I would totally pay more in order to get to pick the level.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Besides, I think that's why random rolls are as relatively cheap as they are, because you don't get to choose the level. If you could, they would probably be more like 30-35 merits instead of 20.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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It would work the same as having a character with XP turned off at level 33 making the roll, except without needing to have a character locked at level 33. So in your example, it would give you the level 30 Eradication.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The problem there is: What if the recipe the random roll generates doesn't exist at that level?
Say you set your random roll generator to level 33, and you roll in the 30-35 range. What happens if it gives you an Eradication? Eradication caps at 30. Now it could do what it does now, and give you the max level, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of "give me a recipe of exactly this level". |
Character index
I have a serious issues with the Invention System. Because we have a system that is designed to place IOs at a particular level you receive lower values for that IO because it is a lower level. However we also have an exemplar system which allows you to go back and do other content. The issue I have is that this often makes the lower IO's more valuable than the higher value IO's. Also I have an issue when I roll for recipes with Merits or AE Tickets I set the value at level 35-39 but if I am level 50, I get a level 50 IO. Now if I roll an entire set of something like I did with some Positrons I only get the bonuses at higher levels not lower ones.
This system seems somewhat backwards to me. Its like it penalizes higher level rolls making them less valuable and less desirable.
I think its time to really rethink how the IO system works.
Just my thought for the day.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-