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buff. |
Originally Posted by Dark_Inferno
So... at the end of the day what do the changes to fury actually mean? Is it that the lower range of fury is easier to get? While filling the bar will take longer - but longer than before or just more than the lower range? Does it now take longer to decay?
Is this an improvement or a nerf? ty! |
Major buff.
That's pretty much all you need to know. Brute's got buffed.
Cool 
very cool.
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I guess if you consider an average 30% or so reduction in the +damage from Fury a 'buff', then yeah, Brutes got buffed alright...
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Originally Posted by je_saist
buff.
Major buff. That's pretty much all you need to know. Brute's got buffed. |
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Not true. For some it's a buff.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
buff.
Major buff. That's pretty much all you need to know. Brute's got buffed. |
In my case it's a clear nerf.
No idea what it will be for the OP.
For those who could easily be at "max" fury before, you definitively lose damage now that the "max" is lower.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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This basically. For any of my Brutes it's a buff, simply because I rarely managed to get & maintain to the highest levels of Fury. It's a buff for any Brute at the lower levels because it's easier to keep a medium level of Fury up (especially on Teams where it can be hard to attract Fury from enemy attacks). For top end Brutes who were able to maintain very high levels of Fury it's a bit of a nerf (and rightly so because they were outstripping Scrappers in the damage department).|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Not true. For some it's a buff.
In my case it's a clear nerf. No idea what it will be for the OP. For those who could easily be at "max" fury before, you definitively lose damage now that the "max" is lower. |
Normalized would be the phrase I'd use.
Brutes do very well out of the Stamina changes though and Frenzy (the Temp Power you get for being a villain and running Tips to maintain your alignment) is excellent for them, giving them an excellent way to "start from cold".
It's a balance. I don't know how many times I've had to freaking post this but it's a balance.
Brutes now fall between Tankers and Scrappers. In the low levels, the Fury change will make your tasks trivial and your damage incredible. In the high levels, you'll still feel that Fury pounding but not as much as before the change. For me, the change was barely noticeable as far as generation. Fury retention is much better; no longer do I need to speed through spawns in hopes my Fury will stay up. Surprisingly, this has offered me less downtime and has sped up my kill rate. When I can charge in to a fresh spawn with ~65% Fury, the bodies fall that much quicker.
It's a balance. Forum search tool helps also.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Imo, its not a buff, not even close. In normal mishs my fury doesnt even get anywhere near the levels it used too. But at the same time i dont notice any real decrease OR increase in damage/kill rate. I just know my fury bar isnt as full as it used to be, and that makes me sad 
But just as Nalrok said, its balance and i can totally understand why it was done.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
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No. It was a nerf. It was needed, but it was a nerf. Top end fury dropped in exchange for increased ability to maintain low levels of fury, something that was not actually a problem. However, it was a problem that brutes were both tougher and more damaging than scrappers, except for certain outliers. Now things are more balanced, with brutes in general being a little tougher than scrappers and a little less damaging.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
buff.
Major buff. That's pretty much all you need to know. Brute's got buffed. |
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Normalized would be the phrase I'd use.
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Nothing serious and certainly nothing to worry about. Brutes are still awesome and Fury is still the best inherent! *SMASH*
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You freaking HAD to post this? lol
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
It's a balance. I don't know how many times I've had to freaking post this but it's a balance.
It's a balance. Forum search tool helps also. |
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Cutting the informative part out of my post just so you can snark at me is hilariously petty.|
Originally Posted by Lascher
You freaking HAD to post this? lol
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.... wait.
How did you get off my ignore list?
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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i19 bug? |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Cutting the informative part out of my post just so you can snark at me is hilariously petty.
.... wait. How did you get off my ignore list? |
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I'm probably picking nits here, but I sort of disagree that it was needed. I understand the argument that Brutes weren't meant to do more damage than Scrappers, what with their higher survivability and all, and therefore had to have their damage reduced. It falls apart when you look at Stalkers though. They have lower than Scrapper survivability and also lower damage in the majority of situations, and this has been deemed WAI by Castle. So the argument that higher survivability should mean lower damage has been proven false.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
It was a nerf. It was needed, but it was a nerf.
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I wasn't against the fury change at the time but looking back I don't think it was needed at all.
Fury was, on average, between 50% and 85%. Now it is, on average, between 60% and 75%.
A nerf, to the top end, a buff to the low end. If you were at the top end all the time, you think it's a nerf. If you were at the low end all the time, you think it's a buff. If you're 90% of the Brute players, you don't notice any difference.
I personally haven't noticed a major improvement, but I have noticed I'm not stressing over Fury as much. It doesn't take as long to build it, and I don't have to work as hard to maintain it.
It's actually very similar to what happened with Defiance, with Blasters losing the max Defiance at 5% HP, but getting a buff to damage base overall. Or with Dominators, losing the bonus of double and triple Domination, but getting the same damage even without Domination.
Let me be more specific:
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The maximum Fury has been reduced, but it's easier to get there, and you can stay there longer.| So... at the end of the day what do the changes to fury actually mean? |
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| Is it that the lower range of fury is easier to get? |
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| While filling the bar will take longer - but longer than before or just more than the lower range? |
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| Does it now take longer to decay? |
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| Is this an improvement or a nerf? |
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This is my feeling as well.|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
I'm probably picking nits here, but I sort of disagree that it was needed. I understand the argument that Brutes weren't meant to do more damage than Scrappers, what with their higher survivability and all, and therefore had to have their damage reduced. It falls apart when you look at Stalkers though. They have lower than Scrapper survivability and also lower damage in the majority of situations, and this has been deemed WAI by Castle. So the argument that higher survivability should mean lower damage has been proven false.
I wasn't against the fury change at the time but looking back I don't think it was needed at all. |
I don't mind the change overall, but the statements on Stalkers makes the fury changes seem unneeded.
At the very least it would be nice if certain Brute attacks or powersets should be looked at and adjusted.
The posterboy for this is SD, it's not even close to the scrapper version for what amounts to an extra 200 HP in the Brute's favor, on a Scrapper you will be doing something on the order of 30% (rough guesstimate) more damage per attack with SC, and AAO will be doing insane things for your ST attack chain.
LR, is also rather lackluster on Brutes in comparison.
Not that I expect these to ever get looked at.
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The issue with Stalkers is not damage, but attack selection. Stalkers do considerably more single target damage than Scrappers. All arguments to the contrary are pointing out the importance of AoE damage to a team. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I don't mind the change overall, but the statements on Stalkers makes the fury changes seem unneeded.
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THIS, I believe, is what is WAI. Castle never said that it was his intention for Stalkers to do less damage than Scrappers overall.
And I don't see this changing unless Assassination is made into a mechanic that will Crit AoE damage. By definition, it is currently a mechanic that doubles the Stalker's base for single target damage.
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Stalkers do not, to my knowledge, have better ST DPS than Scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The issue with Stalkers is not damage, but attack selection. Stalkers do considerably more single target damage than Scrappers. All arguments to the contrary are pointing out the importance of AoE damage to a team.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
THIS, I believe, is what is WAI. Castle never said that it was his intention for Stalkers to do less damage than Scrappers overall.
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They have worse AoE, worse ST DPS and worse survivability.
What they get in return is full stealth, placate and AS (and I personally find AS an awkward mechanic on most teams)
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In what way? Stalkers have Assassin Strike. They then get more frequent Criticals with the same attacks as Scrappers. The only counterbalancing factor I can think of is, like Brutes, that they only get 80% of the self damage buffs. So for Shields (which Stalkers don't even get) or Kinetic the Scrappers will get much better stacking buffs.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Stalkers do not, to my knowledge, have better ST DPS than Scrappers.
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While I can see individual Power Sets doing more DPS for Scrappers than for Stalkers, as with any such AT comparison, I don't believe Scrappers are doing more single target DPS OVERALL. Not unless you can point out a study across several Power Sets that supports this.
Stalkers certainly have less AoE. This is more than enough on which to base an argument. There is no reason to underestimate the ST damage of a Stalker to achieve this. (Keep in mind that all a Stalker needs to do is Critical 18.125% of the time to achieve the same damage as the Scrapper against Minions, disregarding self damage buffs. He can do this with three teammates on his team)
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Do you have a study that shows Stalkers doing more?|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
In what way? Stalkers have Assassin Strike. They then get more frequent Criticals with the same attacks as Scrappers. The only counterbalancing factor I can think of is, like Brutes, that they only get 80% of the self damage buffs. So for Shields (which Stalkers don't even get) or Kinetic the Scrappers will get much better stacking buffs.
While I can see individual Power Sets doing more DPS for Scrappers than for Stalkers, as with any such AT comparison, I don't believe Scrappers are doing more single target DPS OVERALL. Not unless you can point out a study across several Power Sets that supports this. |
If you do have some calculations worked out, toss them up. I'd be very open to reading them, and frankly happy to see if Stalker ST DPS attack chains compete with Scrappers.
I'd have more than the passing interest in the AT than I do now.
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I don't have to. YOU are the one claiming that Scrappers do more single target damage than Stalkers. It is your responsibility to provide evidence for that. I am not required to support a negative. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Do you have a study that shows Stalkers doing more?
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My calculations are above. All a Stalker needs is 3 teammates to do as much damage per individual attack as a Scrapper, outside of Build Up, and 5 teammates would cover the difference there. As Criticals are "true" double damage, unlike Fury, buffs from teammates should remain in the same proportion as well. And I have not even begun to consider the effect of Assassin Strike and the use of Placate for free Criticals on top of that.
And this thread is not the place for a Stalker discussion. This is the Brute forum. If you wish to continue the discussion in the Stalker forum, I would be happy to participate, but I would expect to see more than just generalizations there.
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If they did as much DPS as you think they do, they'd be more popular.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
And this thread is not the place for a Stalker discussion. This is the Brute forum. If you wish to continue the discussion in the Stalker forum, I would be happy to participate, but I would expect to see more than just generalizations there.
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I'll direct you to this thread so you can where your ideas are fully at odds with the community at large.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=244076
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Actually, ironically enough, my post here was partially in response to Supernumiphone, in which I was quoting his own position on the subject:|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'll direct you to this thread so you can where your ideas are fully at odds with the community at large.
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Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
I'm still of the opinion that the lack of AoE is the main limiter on Stalkers' contribution on teams (and therefore the perception of them), but it looks like that discussion is over.
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BTW, I will admit in retrospect that my use of the word "considerably" was perhaps unwise. Considering that Scrappers do not have "considerably" more hit points than Stalkers (they have 10% more) that qualifier was probably not necessary. I didn't even notice I had exaggerated it to that extent until I went back and read the post. At any rate, I apologize for speaking in generalities myself.
Stalkers do less damage than Scrappers against a single target. Sometimes. Scrappers have a 1.125 damage scalar for melee attacks. Stalkers, just a 1.00. With a 10% chance to crit (I'm assuming you don't need to ST down minions), the Scrapper has an effective 1.2375 damage scalar. The Stalker, on the other hand, is 1.1 + 0.03 per ally in range. With 4 or less melee allies, the Scrapper comes out better. 5 or more friends within 30 feet, and the Stalker wins out. Of course, the more melee allies you have, the less support that tends to come with it - apart from kins, most buffers like to keep their distance - and then the Stalker's lower hit points becomes more of a liability.
So, the answer to "do Stalkers or Scrappers have better ST damage?", the answer is a resounding "it depends".
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Originally Posted by AnElfCalledMack
Stalkers do less damage than Scrappers against a single target. Sometimes. Scrappers have a 1.125 damage scalar for melee attacks. Stalkers, just a 1.00. With a 10% chance to crit (I'm assuming you don't need to ST down minions), the Scrapper has an effective 1.2375 damage scalar. The Stalker, on the other hand, is 1.1 + 0.03 per ally in range. With 4 or less melee allies, the Scrapper comes out better. 5 or more friends within 30 feet, and the Stalker wins out. Of course, the more melee allies you have, the less support that tends to come with it - apart from kins, most buffers like to keep their distance - and then the Stalker's lower hit points becomes more of a liability.
So, the answer to "do Stalkers or Scrappers have better ST damage?", the answer is a resounding "it depends". |
You know, that gives me an idea. I'm going to post it in the Stalker thread, sorry for the OT.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
buff.
Major buff. That's pretty much all you need to know. Brute's got buffed. |
Is that how buff was defined in the 2010 EngSoc Newspeak dictionary
So... at the end of the day what do the changes to fury actually mean? Is it that the lower range of fury is easier to get? While filling the bar will take longer - but longer than before or just more than the lower range? Does it now take longer to decay?
Is this an improvement or a nerf?
ty!