The new fury changes?

The Scrapper is, and always has been, the much more consistent and convenient option.

If you want to just run around and attack stuff in melee without having to worry about anything, pick Scrapper.


The Brute is more survivable by about 200-250 more hit points, but on teams you will most likely have a greater share of incoming attacks than if you had made an equivalent Scrapper, and as a Scrapper you'll be doing more damage.

Yep. The Brute's greater hit points are, in effect, balanced by the mechanic used to build Fury. Those hit points are needed to build to Scrapper damage. Solo, it should all balance out.

On a team, the Brute has higher caps, allowing him to achieve higher survivability with team buffs to back him up. He also has more targets on which to build Fury. On the other hand, he loses damage because the amount of damage buffed by the team is lower proportionally than the Scrapper.

In the end, it comes down to team makeup. If there are a lot of defensive boosts, the Brute will be more survivable than the Scrapper because of his higher hit points. If there are a lot of offensive boosts, the Scrapper will be doing more damage. If there are few or no buffers on the team, the Scrapper and Brute will be doing nearly equivalent damage, but the Brute will be struggling to keep himself standing. It that case it would probably be helpful for the Scrapper to off-tank, or for a second Brute or Tanker (since it would likely you would have a second or even third with such a melee-heavy team) to trade out tanking duties.

This is true in theory.

Practically speaking you will come across +Damage bonuses from your team more often than you will come across +Resistance bonuses.

It's even rarer that you will come across enough resistance bonuses to take you past 75% in anything that your secondary wasn't already specialized in.

+Defense bonuses are effectively the same for both ATs.

Only the sets that have a particularly strong resistance to a specific damage type will ever actually get to take full advantage of the Brute higher resistance cap on a consistent basis: Stone, Invuln, Ela & FA.

WP can also do it for limited periods, but it requires 3 slotting SoW with Resistance IOs.

So outside of those sets, the only practical advantages the Brute has are +200-250 HP and slightly better regen due to that.

Brutes make out better on IO +HP set bonuses, due to higher base HP.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've always felt tougher, no matter the team makeup, on my Brutes than on my Scrappers.

The reduction of the Brute Damage cap, I never noticed. I've had multiple Brutes, and only once, did I ever have my Brute at the damage cap (1 Brute, 7 Corrs with beautiful buffs).

If they had never mentioned the reduction in Brute Damage Cap, most players wouldn't have noticed untill one of the fringe players said anything.

And even then, the others wouldn't notice, they'd just complain about it, since they'd now know about it.

Brutes are still awesome, anyone who says differently are kidding themselves

In my experience is still works out to 200-250 HP or so.

It's nothing to sneeze at, but it doesn't suddenly make you a "tank" either.


Brutes are tougher, I've not gone against that.

But on constant teaming and TF situations my brutes clearly take a much larger share of incoming attacks than even my most heavily AoE focused Scrappers do (Elm/SD for example).


That's not really the point I'm making.

There are quite a few bits and pieces that I feel under perform well beyond the simple differences between scrappers and brutes.

Even without the damage cap reduction, Brute SC and LR are quite frankly sad imitations of the Scrapper versions.

This is why when Elm or SD are ever considered in any thread about "scrapper or brute?" the answers are almost universally "Scrapper".

Here's why (2 of my own characters)

• SS/SD Brute with more than 400% Damage bonus(AAO, 2x Rage, Frenzy): Shield Charge for 284

• Elm/SD Scrap with 200% Damage bonus (AAO, BU): Shield Charge for 423

Do you think the SD Brute, with 2288 HP is so much more survivable than the Scrapper with 2024 HP that it warrants the Scrapper's SC to do nearly 50% more damage over the Brutes?

In addition, the Scrapper's Shield Charge can utilize another +200% damage to increase that even further.

It's generally the case that sets shared across ATs work best for one over the other.

In the Brute/Scrapper case Shields do indeed favour Scrappers more. However Willpower and the new Fire lean towards Brutes more IMO (Willpower because the higher HP means better regen rates and a higher "buffer" of HP to work with, Fire because Healing Flames heals for more, Burn plays with Fury much better now, Burning Aura has a Taunt and Fiery Embrace now takes Damage buffs into account).

So I agree with you, for Shield I'd certainly pick Scrapper. But when it comes to other sets I'd choose Brutes.

It's not just a case of a little bit more, you're looking at nearly 50% more damage every 30s on the set defining power, as well as a massive increase in ST DPS over a shared primary through AAO.


This is all true, however:

If you play on teams at all, the Brute will very likely be taking much more incoming damage than the Scrapper and will often be called on to take alphas and hold aggro on what amounts to an extra 10-12% HP and 10-20 HP/S regen.

The Brute versions is more survivable, and I have no problem with the Scrapper version of SC and AAO doing more damage.


But the disparity is too great in damage dealing in the case of AAO, SC & LR - and it's much greater than the survivability advantage when comparing WP vs. WP.


Do you have any numbers on how the two compare vs. one another? (I don't personally, I could get some numbers from my SS/FA if you have
an FA Scrapper).

I'm also curious how they compare if we go outside of SS and compare using primary sets with persistent damage buffs (DB, Claws, KM) or if
we simply compare sets that can do BU > Burn or BU > FE.

Just goofing in mids with 3 L50 Healing IOs:

Brute Healing Flames: 746.18
Scrapper Healing Flames: 666.23

So the Brute has a clear advantage here, but if we go by how much more effective the Scrapper version of SC is, it should look like this:

Brute Healing Flames: 986
Scrapper Healing Flames: 666.23


Look ridiculous?

That's because it is.

The disparity between any two similar Brute or Scrapper powers should not, imo, be that massive.

So the Brute is ahead of the game, especially with FE running.

Thanks for taking the time to put some numbers up.

I'm not sure what you mean by BU or FE, BU is +damage bonus and FE is a straight damage proc-like effect.

Or are you just adding the "proc" damage from FE on top of it all?

Exactly, it's the total damage with one or both those buffs up (So when FE is active case it'll be split into two orange numbers above their heads). It's the damage each would do with Burn having popped one or both of them, taken from Mids final damage figure.

FE is absolutely amazing on a Brute now.

Some has already been covered already, yes, /Shield is more awesome on the Scrappers, but /WP is more awesome on the Brute.

However, I will have to disagree on the aggro, especially with Shield Scrappers.

It's been my experience that Shield Scrappers just pull aggro off everything! I've watched them do it, and I watched one doing to my Dual Aggro Aura, Taunting and Punching, Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker.

And that was with my tanker taunting first, then watching the aggro peeled away as soon as the Shielder came in.

That said, the Shield Brute still has more HP than the Shield Scrapper, and on a team with +Resist thrown in, that Shield Brute will out survive that Shield Scrapper even more.

So if a scrapper crits with FE up they dont get 2(dmg+FE) just 2dmg+FE? Im confused why its better on a brute >.<

Well I'm not going to disagree with that.

I didn't actually think that FA overall damage capability was better on a Brute.

It's a bit of a consolation I suppose, but for how I play my Brutes (main aggro holder) FA simply isn't resilient enough for what I need it to do.



For general PvE, Scrapper Shield Defense is more awesome than Brute WP (my opinion, I'm sure I'll be lambasted for it )

And WP + Katana or BS is more awesome than WP + Knockdown.



Eventually, taunt auras can only do so much.

It's much more unlikely that a Scrapper will peel aggro off of a Taunting, AoE pounding, Taunt aura having Brute.

Or some of the more offense minded Tanker builds.

The strength of AAO is a problem for a lot Tankers though I imagine. I believe the strength of it's Taunt aura is to provide what the developers consider a "negative" in that you take more incoming damage in order to deal the damage that you can do - this is not too dissimilar to part of the design concept of Brutes.



This I have to disagree with.

Outside of using OWTS + buffs for limited periods of near invincibility, I find it's a very rare case for a Brute to be getting OVER +45% resistance buffs to smashing/lethal, and OVER +50-60% resistance buffs to other types of damage.

If an SD Brute is not getting over those numbers, then they have the exact same resistances as an SD Scrapper.

In which case, it comes down to a 12% HP advantage for the brute, and a handful of extra HP per second.

Fury.

As Nalrok says it's down to Fury.

If you Crit you get 2Dam + FE because FE and the Crit are both coded as extra damage effects in every Scrapper power, but Fury actually increases your Damage Modifier so increasing it will increase both the standard damage effect of a power and the Fiery Embrace one.

For a Scrapper Build-Up will work with a Crit though.

Ah, thank you for clearing that up.
And i already knew how epic FE is on a brute, just wasnt sure how it worked on scrappers. Got an SS/fire/mu and i farm with tons of red on. . .doing some 700 dmg every 5-6 seconds just from foot stomp about 50% of the time if a beautiful thing.

We can also just plug in random numbers into the two analytical equations:

Scrapper:
2Dam+FE = Total
2x50+30= Total
100+30= 130

Brute:

2(Dam+FE)=Total
2(50+30)=Total
2(80)=160

Now while I don't know the exact percentage modifier of FE's damage bonus, I think that still works out to show the mechanics.

Yup, it's a trade off. Advantages to a "true" Crit are that it can exceed the damage cap, and doubles buffs. FE is in this sense Crit-type damage, although not a double damage Crit.

But in this case the damage boost does more than another Crit, since it's coded to be enhanceable, but not to "double Crit".

Or conversely, the strength of the aura is to draw foes in so you can get the benefit of the greater scaling buff. That's both a positive and a negative. It's the same with Invincibility and Rise to the Challenge though. (Although in those cases the benefit is defensive, not offensive, and helps balance the greater risk. And of course RttC's taunt aura isn't "up to the challenge", so to speak )

It goes beyond the Damage Cap issue.

Th Brute at +400% damage damage bonus, the maximum for the SC Psuedopet, is only doing 284.

The Scrapper self buffed to 200% damage, is doing 50% more damage than that.

As a matter of fact, the Scrapper SC at 100% damage still does (marginally) more damage than the Brute SC does at 400%.

Since we're talking solo and self buffed, it has little to do with the damage cap and more to do with this:


Maybe there is someone better than me at math (lots of people) who can work out how much Fury the Brute would need to do only 80% of the damage of the Scrapper version (ignoring the pseudopet limitation).

It certainly isn't 400%.

Well, the problem isn't really the damage scales, it's that the Brute will cap his damage with the psuedo-pet with only a 55% damage buff. It doesn't matter how much Fury you have, you can't go over a 400% damage buff. So the Scrapper only needs a 55% damage boost to achieve the same "cap" at which the Brute stops.

I am not sure where you are getting your numbers, my calculations of final damage don't match yours. I'm pretty sure that Shield Charge uses the pet scale for damage, (and I'm assuming melee) and so given the scale values from the patch notes, the Brute version should do a base 1.8*55.61 at level 50, or 100.1 for stage 1. Slotted for 3 damage, that should be 195.1911. 400% damage should be 400.392. Stage 2 should be 70.90275, or 138.26 3 slotted, and 283.611 at 400%.

For the Scrapper, it should again be 2.7*55.61 or 150.147 for stage 1, 292.78665 3 slotted and 600.588 at 400%. Stage 2 is 106.354, 207.39 and 425.41.

I don't know where you are getting 284, but that's 71% of what I would expect it to be if you're talking about stage 1, and 41.5% of what I would expect total. That's not 75%, so I'm assuming you're not trying to apply the Brute base modifier. If you are seeing that in game, I'm not sure where my calculations are wrong, but we can just consider the rest of this post in proportion relative to that. We'd just reduce all the following numbers by 71%.

Anyway, If the Shield Charge damage is calculated from pet damage, then it should take only 50% Fury for the Brute to do more damage than the Scrapper. 100.1*(1.95+1.2) = 295.295 > 150.147*1.95 = 292.787 According to City of Data Shield Charge doesn't Crit, (or at least, didn't) but if it does the formula becomes the same as for any attack, with the balance point at 60%.

The problem is that the Brute's damage maxes out at 75% Fury and a 55% damage boost, the Brute is doing 400.392 as mentioned above, while the Scrapper does 150.147*(1.95+.55) = 375.3675 damage. But as the Scrapper goes to +100% damage, and then +200% damage, that obviously exceeds what the Brute can do, because he's effectively lost his 775% damage cap.

I suppose the pertinent thing to calculate it at what damage boost the Scrapper exceeds the Brute. Which is 150.147*(1.95+x) = 400.392, or 71.67%.

Does a +50% red inspiration do 1.5*(Base Damage+Fury) or (1.5*Base) + Fury on a brute anyway?


Yes, aside from all the numbers (and that I never found it broken that a fully furied Brute can do more damage as a Scrapper, given the Scrapper never goes below that while the Brute has to get there first, must not take a break, and that I have a hard time keeping the aggro to gather that much Fury when there's a Tanker on the team or lots of ranged artillery that shoot way beyond where I can reach or mez everyone so that they can attack), I also find it rather annoying that the Fury bar always shows a should-be point that I can never reach - because going there requires a power that I do not (or even cannot!) have.

Shield Charge uses the scales I posted from the patch notes.

My numbers, "284" specifically, comes directly from in game.

That's the number I get consistently on missions and across a wide variety of enemies, as well as an AE mish I mocked up specifically to post in this thread against custom enemies.

I have not seen anything higher than 284 on this Brute [SS/SD] since i18 went live.


Yep, as I said above - that comes directly from in game.

And in my personal opinion - they reduced the Brute version too much when they made the i18 changes.


I have both SD Brute & Scrappers, and the Brute version never outdamages the Scrapper version in equal circumstances - and 284 is the absolute maximum I have seen in game - outside of mobs having their DR debuffed - for the Brute version of Shield Charge.



I'll make a few runs in game with my Scrapper and post the results here, I'll do some with and some without damage bonuses.

And then there are times when you think OK Shield Charge should kill everything now...... and then you get 1 damage all around..... what the!!!!!!!!!!!

It's (Base) * (1+0.5[for insp]+0.9[-ish for enhancements]+(0.0 to 2.0[for Fury])

All buffs and enhancements are added up, added to a base 100%, and then multiplied by the base value. This is true for all aspects of a power, except reductions (like endurance or recharge), in which case it's Base / (1.0 + all buffs).