As for characters I have that are evil, I don't play evil characters really, I find it thoroughly not fun to play something I know is bound for a bad ending, to me, evil is sort of like going the wrong way down the highway, you might get away with it for a while, depending on how skilled you are, but eventually you'll be arrested or caught in an accident. And the longer you keep it up, the more damage you'll cause to those around you.
all in all not appealing...
however, I do have my villains for my books and one or two are evil
Adrasteia from Zodiacs is evil and knows it...she also knows that she is beyond redemption and she knows that the reason she is beyond redemption isn't because of some external measure of what is or is not evil, but because she herself does not regret the act that originally damned her...she made a conscious decision that revenge was worth her soul in a particular case...once she made that decision she broadened her revenge to encompass the cultural of her upbringing and manipulated her country into a crippling civil war that obliterated any chance of balance and stability they had in that particular system
once her revenge was complete, she's started broadening her power base for the purpose of enabling herself to live as long as possible and put off the time of final judgment. She does this despite being fully aware that she can't outrun the end and that eventually her life will end so that the only thing she is accomplishing is to pile more crimes on her list and that she herself has no direct care for any of that.
one specific thing is the fact that she manipulates her minions into potential redemption for the twin fact that if they are redeemed they will not suffer her fate in the next life and that she has a ritual that extends her life and requires the sacrifice of a redeemed villain.
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Kali/Karen Jasthi from Bystander could probably be considered evil, but I think she's more insane...she's basically become identified with her code-name and is acting out the part of the destroyer aspects of Kali
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The Weaver from Greenwater is a fanatic and intolerant of those who are different. That is somewhat evil, but of a more generic variety and she isn't the biggest evil out there...not even the biggest shown...the presence in Nenfana is probably more evil, though it, itself is a just a piece of something that was fully conscious of what it did, so in lacking the full Will, I'm not sure you could call it evil or a result of evil....eh
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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Okay, we'll let's expand on that a bit. |
Originally Posted by Lycanus
I don't find the xenomorphs in aliens to be evil. As you say, they're fulfilling their purpose.
however, they do fit in the classification of a monster a monster doesn't need to be evil to be a threat just like I said the Daybreaker vamps aren't really evil, but are monstrous a horror story doesn't need something evil to be horrible |
How about the daleks or the borg? Are they evil? Maybe the daleks are more so than the borg because, given their repeated shouting and chanting of "exterminate," they do seem to be enjoying their work. The borg (A least before they start personifying them and making them lame.) didn't really give any impression at all that they enjoyed making others suffer. The borg just ruthlessly cut new species up and merge them into the network before moving on to the next solar system. Human emotion doesn't seem to enter into it.
Or how about Brianiac? Pretty much wants to turn the entire universe into a crystal to store all the information in it forever but doesn't seem to be very emotional about it. Brianiac does get kinda personal with Superman though.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
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You seem to be stuck on the only kind of "real" evil being a complete monster type character, and I think you're limiting yourself far too much that way. In my case, my two main villains are both irredeemably evil, but they see the value of working and associating with others, albeit for different reasons.|
Originally Posted by Dante
The above question is one I have had rolling around my head for a while now and with the advent of Going Rogue and Tips missions, it's cropped up again. Although aimed at the Unionverse posse, I'm curious to know what other people are roleplaying and how they do it.
Simply put, whenever I try to create a properly evil character (as in, one that takes delight in others misfortune, enjoys robbing stealing and murdering) I seem to inevitably have to tone down their behaviour once they enter into social RP. The reasons for this are understandable: that just as in real life, no-one really wants to hang around with someone who'se that malevolent towards others. Most of my so called villains appear to lean far more heavily towards the Rogue worldview where what they do may not necessarily be 'good' but it is not quite the cackling villain rubbing his hands at the thought of inflicting more torture and suffering on others. And I don't think I am alone. Real villains only seem to crop up if a plot demands it, mainly to have someone to boo and for the bad guys to beat down on. Others again seem to be firmly in the Rogue camp. So here's the question: how do you roleplay real evil and remain sociable? And where are all the true villains of the Unionverse hiding? Because I'd like to meet them.  |
Agonus is a manipulator type, in the mold of Dr. Doom with (among others) a bit of Destro thrown in. He prefers talking over fighting. IC, the character's even been called a gentleman.
He's utterly convinced he's meant to rule the world, but he realizes he can't accomplish that goal on his own, so he finds others to work with to that end. While he's willing to work with almost anyone, he still views people as pawns in his greater schemes. As such, he'll treat someone he views as valuable to his goals with a lot of respect, but as soon as he doesn't think they're useful, he'll dispose of them.
And I know it's cliche, but he's also killed (almost) everyone he has any relation to in an effort to hide his true name and old life. There's no real benefit to finding out who Agonus was, but if he thinks someone knows, it's his berserk button. It shatters his normally calm demeanor, making him reckless.
And on the other end of the spectrum, I have Aaron Tetherson. In an effort to gain power, he formed a demon worshipping cult, then slaughtered them all to complete the final ritual. Dealing with demons is never easy though, and the final price he had to pay was essentially damning his own bloodline to get the power he craved. So Aaron's all about power, and doing what he wants, when he wants. If you're on his level, or even above it, he'll respect you. (He's a bit stuck on old world idealogy though, and doesn't have the greatest view of women. Sometimes that goes over well IC, sometimes it doesn't. >.> I think I know enough of when to play it up and when to ignore it though.)
And there's Praetorian Aaron (the Caelesian, no VV page), who went about things a little differently. Instead of gaining a massive amount of power at once and stopping there, he's gone about his ascension slowly. After all, the Caelesian has a higher goal than Primal Aaron, he wants to become a god. And he's willing to do almost anything to that end.
I have other villains all over the place too.
Starscourge is an alien energy vampire, who views organic beings as little more than "walking hamburgers."
The Silver Scourge is a time traveling AI out to eradicate all organic life. However, it's information on the "Age of Heroes" was woefully inadequate, and the organics of this time are significantly stronger than it can handle alone. As such, it realizes it needs to adapt to be able to complete its mission.
Johnny and Jane Nix are the ghosts of pre-tween twins intent on winning the game of being the greatest killers ever.
Johhny Reaper is a Praetorian anarchist punk. Essentially made to match the extreme of the Crusader arc. Thing is, in Johnny's case, he just doesn't care, he does it for fun.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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it is not necessary to enjoy evil acts to be evil|
Originally Posted by synthozoic
Okay, we'll let's expand on that a bit.
How about the daleks or the borg? Are they evil? Maybe the daleks are more so than the borg because, given their repeated shouting and chanting of "exterminate," they do seem to be enjoying their work. The borg (A least before they start personifying them and making them lame.) didn't really give any impression at all that they enjoyed making others suffer. The borg just ruthlessly cut new species up and merge them into the network before moving on to the next solar system. Human emotion doesn't seem to enter into it. Or how about Brianiac? Pretty much wants to turn the entire universe into a crystal to store all the information in it forever but doesn't seem to be very emotional about it. Brianiac does get kinda personal with Superman though. |
the borg in general are not evil because the aspect of free will has been taken away from them and they don't have a choice...now, the fact that we know there are elements of the borg higher up the command chain that do have free will, those I would classify as evil
the daleks are evil because they certainly don't have a need to exterminate others in order to survive, they just think that they are perfection and since they're perfect everybody else has to die because they're not worthy
Brianiac is hard to tell, he seems more along the lines of differently moral rather than evil...as far as he's concerned, the reality is immaterial
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
I think one of the points of the thread has been slightly lost in the morality discussion, and this might just be me projecting, but it seems like Dante isn't just interested in moral evil, he also means comic book evil; in other words, antagonists and instigators. These people probably don't fit in the narrow band of "Knows wrong and chooses it", they also include things that don't know wrong (An alien has taken the Mayor hostage!) and things that can't choose wrong (Oh no, Luna has been possessed by the Hisulth Demon! We need to stop her before it's too late!). Their important characteristic is convinction or ambition, even if that's artificially enforced, they go out and do something that heroes can then make right again.
IMO, it's these kinds of villians that CoH RP sorely lacks, and tends to feel quite "Talky" because of their abscence. Sure, Rikti are invading and Recluse is always trying to take over the world with the Grandville array, but player made threats basically don't exist, which leads to heroes spending 99% of their IC time in bars rather than saving the world.
Of course, I started the IC Missions channel, so you know where I stand on Club:Mission ratios 
Okay, the vampire was a bad example. But the point I was getting at was that the if the character has some mitigating reason for doing the 'evil' acts, then it can act to make them a sympathetic character just as the thief who steals for money can be argued to be worse than the theif that steals to feed his family. A character driven by species imperitives to fight, breed and consume is not the same as a character who knows what the 'correct' action is and chooses the opposite.
As for the Complete Monster? Well, maybe. I guess that what I see mostly in RP are Rogues, characters who do questionable things for money and their own empowerment. I might not necessarily want a completely reprehensible character (I tend to agree that these are loners and not very popular) but someone further down the scale towards the real 'evil' rather than the 'cheeky scallywag' that some Rogues can be. Just because the character does reprehensible things, does it mean they can't be sociable? Or are they mutually exclusive? How much is too much?
EDIT: To follow up on Spec's post, yes antagonists do promote good plotlines but their existence is limited. I've brought in evil NPCs to run plots before but only so that they can get their just deserts in the end. Would you say that it is possible to create an evil antagonist and keep them as a constant character rather than a throwaway NPC once that plot has ended?
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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I can't give definite proof, but if Batman can still fight the Joker, I don't see why we can't have recurring villians too.|
Originally Posted by Dante
Would you say that it is possible to create an evil antagonist and keep them as a constant character rather than a throwaway NPC once that plot has ended?
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Plus, how many times have we beaten down Flambeaux? She's still around. I guess I mean I fully expect antagonists to have dramatic escapes or to be busted out of prison, so yeah, I'd say go for it.
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That's very true. And I think evil IS subjective, both for the person doing it and the victim. You can see something someone is doing to you as evil when they don't. |
Originally Posted by Lycanus
a monster doesn't need to be evil to be a threat
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I think what's truly evil is when you recognize that your victim sees you as evil, and revel in it. I think a definition I heard once is, "Evil is actively taking enjoyment in the suffering of others". And I believe that was in reference to the episode of Reboot (I saw that show mentioned in the Tropes page I linked to, which may be why I thought of it) where Dot believes Enzo has been killed in a game. The scene is powerful, not just for Dot's obvious grief, but Megabyte superemposed over the frame in the background, LAUGHING at her pain. THAT'S evil...
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Preferring to play villains (and having run a RPVG) I've tried, numerous times with different SGs and VGs and handfuls of players and just single players to set up ongoing rivalries between PC heroes and PC villains. And it's failed. Every. Single. Time. |
Originally Posted by Dante
... Would you say that it is possible to create an evil antagonist and keep them as a constant character rather than a throwaway NPC once that plot has ended?
|
I think it's an awesome idea, to set up something comic booky where there's a back and forth between heroes and villains. Say the villain goes to rob a bank. The hero stops them. Villain then attacks the hero, hero gets away. Hero regroups to stop the villain. Villain gets away. And so on and so forth, you get the idea. But in my experience, only myself and the handful of remaining players of my RPVG are interested in that sort of thing.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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I would so love that. But admittedly I have tried to do the same and have had similar experiences. A shame. |
Originally Posted by Agonus
Preferring to play villains (and having run a RPVG) I've tried, numerous times with different SGs and VGs and handfuls of players and just single players to set up ongoing rivalries between PC heroes and PC villains. And it's failed. Every. Single. Time.
I think it's an awesome idea, to set up something comic booky where there's a back and forth between heroes and villains. Say the villain goes to rob a bank. The hero stops them. Villain then attacks the hero, hero gets away. Hero regroups to stop the villain. Villain gets away. And so on and so forth, you get the idea. But in my experience, only myself and the handful of remaining players of my RPVG are interested in that sort of thing. |
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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It's a two-sided thing, from my experience here and in other roleplaying setups. The great thing about NPCs is that they can hide behind the scenes and pop up with a fully-formed Evil Plot ready to go, without having to establish it all through RP (and, if your evil minions are other players' characters, getting them lined up as well). I have several established NPC badguys waiting in the wings to cause trouble for the Militia and Cadre.|
Originally Posted by Dante
EDIT: To follow up on Spec's post, yes antagonists do promote good plotlines but their existence is limited. I've brought in evil NPCs to run plots before but only so that they can get their just deserts in the end. Would you say that it is possible to create an evil antagonist and keep them as a constant character rather than a throwaway NPC once that plot has ended?
|
The flipside of that, though, is that NPCs are inherently invisible, and people tend to forget about them if they're not immediately present... or not even notice them when they are there. This happens all the time in pen and paper roleplaying, where players will have a lengthy, supposedly IC discussion about an NPC who's standing right in front of them. This can limit the impact of a recurring antagonist.
On balance I still think NPCs are the way to go for a villain whose goal is to conquer the world, or at least turn its population into apes. These plans exist only to be thwarted because they would change the rules of roleplaying in the setting too radically and break too far from the world presented to us. A player character who spends all his RP time plotting for major events in which he is repeatedly defeated would quickly lose interest for me. Villains and rogues with more modest goals can have the chance of success or failure, and are more likely to work as player characters in my opinion.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
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The initial plan with the RPVG I mentioned before, The Supreme Society, was that it was a comic booky group intent on world domination. But I knew that would never be possible in CoV, as players don't have that much affect on the game world. The problem is that regardless of how many times I even explicitly stated that the group was always going to be working towards the goal but unable to accomplish (it for any one of a number of reasons) it never really sunk in. |
Originally Posted by Wolfram
...On balance I still think NPCs are the way to go for a villain whose goal is to conquer the world, or at least turn its population into apes. These plans exist only to be thwarted because they would change the rules of roleplaying in the setting too radically and break too far from the world presented to us. A player character who spends all his RP time plotting for major events in which he is repeatedly defeated would quickly lose interest for me. Villains and rogues with more modest goals can have the chance of success or failure, and are more likely to work as player characters in my opinion.
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-I- was fine with the VG's end goal being so far off down the line, that it would essentially never happen in-game.
What we did try to do though, was orchestrate more reasonable plots to that end. Kidnap someone here. Steal something there. Attack a small foreign country. Go get some magical doo-hickey that could unlock power. Go fight some heroes who who were pestering us. Or try to stop in-group fighting and coups.
The IC main problem that I encountered trying to work with groups outside ours was when it came to the whole back-and-forth aspect. Most hero PCs were ungodly reluctant to let a villain PC get any sort of "win" type accomplishment, (especially at the heroes expense) which was intended to help establish the villain as a threat. In my opinion, a villain who never succeeds at anything, no matter how minor it is, isn't worth it.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
The Joker always seems to be teaming up with others and they are usually scared to death of him. Do that. LOL
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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So why is that? What's your guess as to why other players don't like going through this back and forth between hero and villain rivals in the game or in RP threads?
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Originally Posted by Agonus
Preferring to play villains (and having run a RPVG) I've tried, numerous times with different SGs and VGs and handfuls of players and just single players to set up ongoing rivalries between PC heroes and PC villains. And it's failed. Every. Single. Time.
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"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
if you really want to do personalized stories of rivalry between you and a PC player....make use of AE and write stories personalized to each of you
people might not get some of the references in the story, but that won't matter too much.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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I agree wholeheartedly with this statement: Villians have to be able to do something to establish threat. Even if it's just throw a guy through a window when they come in or something. If a villian is seen as unable to act on his threats, then he's just a showoff and a joke. Unfortunately, given the immutability of the game world, this will always require player buy-in, and trying to get every RPer in Union to agree that Destructimus is a threat will be hard, so he's naturally forced to small scale shenannigans, at which point he's a family mook with lasers (or whatever). It is a tricky issue. |
Originally Posted by Agonus
The IC main problem that I encountered trying to work with groups outside ours was when it came to the whole back-and-forth aspect. Most hero PCs were ungodly reluctant to let a villain PC get any sort of "win" type accomplishment, (especially at the heroes expense) which was intended to help establish the villain as a threat. In my opinion, a villain who never succeeds at anything, no matter how minor it is, isn't worth it.
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It might also be a symptom of a wider Union problem that we all share a universe ICly but there's very little communication of what missions people have done IC or what's local canon. Of course, if we had unified local canon we wouldn't have these fun threads, so YYMV
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I don't really do RP threads here, but I have my theories on the in-game aspect. YMMV and all that, 'course.|
Originally Posted by synthozoic
So why is that? What's your guess as to why other players don't like going through this back and forth between hero and villain rivals in the game or in RP threads?
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The simplest one is that scheduling multiple players across umpteen timezones can be a hassle and a half. Especially if one player in particular is necessary to move the story along, and they're late, or don't show, or just flat out disappear. And then you move to a back-up plan, since you can't advance the main plot without that player. Then someone else can't make it next time. And after so many botched "events" players start losing interest.
Then there's all sorts of RP style shenanigans, but this is also by no means a definite list.
-Players who don't pay attention to character level as a measure of power, versus those who do. (My level 5 SS brute can hurt your level 50 Inv tank! o.0?)
-Nevermind the godmodders who slip in unnoticed. Or the normally good RPers who don't like how something is turning out, and "lash out" in a godmodish fashion.
-50's in and of themselves are something of an issue. Some players just don't feel comfortable RPing their lowbie against a 50, and vice versa.
-There's also the players who stick to playing that one level 50. Which in and of itself is fine, except when they have friends with nasty cases of alt-itis who are constantly leveling up new characters (or who just don't care to level). It's difficult to build ongoing plots when characters are constantly disappearing due to loss of interest, or having to meet yet another new character because something struck a player's fancy that week resulting in yet another character.
-Players who want to textfight to resolve conflict vs those who don't.
-Players who want to do pure, no-holds-barred PVP to resolve conflict vs those who don't.
-Players, (like my RPVG) who had fun with a casual RPVP type format. We did it sort of like pro-wrestling; work out who would win beforehand, then draw out the fight, taunting and challenging and such the whole time. It was a ton of fun, the one time it worked. Sadly, we could never repeat those results. Far as I can tell, too many RPers get scared off any time they see the letters "p" "v" and "p" connected to anything.
-Or the players who are content to just sit around in D and have "Yo mama!" fights.
-Or the players who utterly and totally refuse to go to any location outside of the base, for fear of someone breaking RP immersion.
-Conversely, the players who feel the need to negatively interrupt public RP gatherings.
-And last but most definitely not least, there's the general issue of player ego. Some RPers don't like giving ground to another RPer in any way, shape, or form. (Which doesn't happen against NPCs, but NPCs have their own strengths and weaknesses.) Hell, I've had hero players tell me that the way they resolve conflict, a villain is locked up the first time (permanently, I guess?) and that's the end of it. Or they call in their superduperundefeatable attack squad, and they take out the villains.
Me, I don't mind losing. I also understand that world domination isn't really possible in the grand scheme of what a player can do in the game. But a villain PC can do all kinds of things reasonably within the gameworld without attracting the full ire of the Freedom Phalanx or Arachnos or Crey or whathaveyou.
As such I do expect to be able to "win" at least once in a while to give the hero(es) a reason to come after me. Batman, Spider-Man, Dredd, the X-Men, the Justice League, they all have losses on their belts. Even Superman gets beaten every now and then.
Mind you, even considering all that, I'd still love to have a hero to RP against on a regular basis. When it -works-, it's all kinds of fun.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
I find myself in totaly agreement with Agonus and i feel dispite all its claims the Unionverse is no where near the shared IC universe that is often claimed. I am well aware of events that happen at GG, in Pok d and in some SG activities that are mutally exclusive and take very different canon and non canon views, may be once there was stronger ties, but certainly no more. Prehaps it is time to accept that changes occur and that close coordination is no more.
The greatest difficulty i find is that someone has to loose, hero or villain, and to have this pre arranged i always feel spoils the event. personally PVP is not the answer, i dont make PVP builds and i tend not to play the right power sets that make a good PVP toon.
The nearest to an answer i have found is for one sides action to create a challenge that the other side needs to over come, play through a series of these and get an averages score to see who is the winner, this allows RPed direct conflicts along the way where one side is foce to withdraw, get over the problem of the Villain being captured or the herro killed. TBH most of these ideas only work if you have a person willing to take on the burden of Plot Master and run the event, often at the expence of getting to play their own toon that much.
It doesn't work for a few fairly simple reasons.
The main one is most people just don't want to lose. The Heroes don't want to lose, the Villains don't want to lose. People say "Oh the heroes should lose now and then" but what they really mean is "My Villain shouldn't ever lose, he/she is that awesome". Even if everyone denies this, I think we can all agree that an open thread will have at least ONE of these people in it. And it only takes one.
Power levels. They're all over the shop. Some Heroes and Villains are street level, some are your standard Superhero level and some are on such a ridiculous power level that they're going to absolutely dominate any plot they join. No one likes being marginalised for a plot, but generally I find when Villains go up against Heroes even Kumi, who's an incredibly powerful Regen/Super Strength, is not even close to holding a candle to others who claim her toughness and Strength as just a given and then expand on that with a huge list of 'extra' powers. Worse, some people play nothing BUT these characters and frankly I'm not interested in it one bit.
These people generally refuse to take it to the arena too. So what..... I'm just meant to accept I'm facing a walking god who my character is completely useless against? No thanks, that kind of plot is incredibly hard to pull off at the best of times and even then it should be very, very rare. Not the standard.
So this stuff needs to be loosely pre-arranged. Which kills the 'open' part of it.
Finally it's the tone of RP. Some people like light hearted RP (Yo), some like it to be dark and gritty, some like buckets of angst, some like elements of silliness (Yo again), some like big punch ups and some people are just there to show everyone how awesome their character is. Usually any big mixed RP is a struggle to 'wrench' the plot over to their favoured style, which leads to a lot of dissonance when you've got grim-dark heroes who's parents are DEAAAAAD paired up with a super powered hairdresser with suitably bad lines (Looks like this case was .... cut and dry) fighting a group of miniature God Villains who conquer whole states in their off time (But we never see it as you can't actually do that in CoX)
I think there is a divide in the Unionverse yes, the Heroes tend to fight NPC villains. The Villains tend to fight NPC heroes. It works and it's fairly enjoyable, we just don't have enough people for themed Supergroups to organize some cross faction RP that both sides would enjoy. I can find RP on MMO's hard at times. There's no GM to keep people focused and no incentive to stick to power levels either. Which means there's people out there I just wouldn't RP with if it was a tabletop game and so yes, horrors upon horrors I do ignore people these days if I really don't like their style. I don't think they should stop, there's bound to be people out there who DO like their style and good luck to them but I don't want to RP with them nor do I feel it's my 'duty' to go through the painful process of trying to teach those who don't want to be taught. So a big 'open' plot is never going to be my thing, there'll be people in it I don't like RPing with and I can't exactly ignore them, so stepping back is a good second best
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I'd disagree a little. The Unionverse is a shared RP setting, just not one that's fully open. In fact, fittingly enough, the best analogy I can think of for it is a comic book continuity. The DC and Marvel comics universes each have a variety of different characters and groups who share the same setting but will only interact with one another on rare occasions. They have different styles, different tones, and face different threats. Similarly, the Unionverse has a number of different SGs with differing tones and RP styles, and only occasionally will they interact with others. I'd certainly like to see it happen more often, but there's always an element of it.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
I find myself in totaly agreement with Agonus and i feel dispite all its claims the Unionverse is no where near the shared IC universe that is often claimed. I am well aware of events that happen at GG, in Pok d and in some SG activities that are mutally exclusive and take very different canon and non canon views, may be once there was stronger ties, but certainly no more. Prehaps it is time to accept that changes occur and that close coordination is no more.
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Everything Agonus and Fanservice just said is pretty much true to some extent. It's for these reasons that I think having truly "open" RP across the server is just not practical. Everything has to be tailored to some extent to the players who are going to engage in it. Again, comic book crossovers are a good analogy. If you put the Punisher in the same story as Squirrel Girl, you're going to end up doing a disservice to one of those characters. The two each depend on the story having a different tone. The same goes for players here.
Power level is actually easier to work around, but that requires the players to be prepared to compromise. There are plenty of stories that successfully combine Superman and Batman, characters at opposite ends of any power scale, but they do it by giving them different challenges that are plausible for each to overcome. If a player shows up with a character who's not only bursting with superpowers but also a master detective, bomb disposal expert and car mechanic, they're leaving very little room for anyone else to shine.
So, unfortunately, throwing open a plot to all comers is inviting trouble. This is the reason I often shy away from RP on these forums, as opposed to the Militia ones, where I have more idea of what to expect. You can have a plot that's mostly open, but I think you have to specify who it's aimed at, how serious and gritty or light-hearted and silly it's going to get, what kind of challenges it's going to pose. Better still is to get a list of players and characters signed up before the plot is properly in motion, and do some quick tweaking to make sure it will work for them all - the way a pen and paper campaign usually works, and the way I try to do things in this game on the occasions when I put forward plots.
If it needs to be said, I too am happy to suffer losses in order to get some back-and-forth RP going and establish some grudges. I don't even really care how the defeat is determined: PvP, popular vote, random roll, plot moderator deciding it's how the story needs to go. Just establish the rules ahead of time, let me know what I'm letting myself in for, and I'll do my best.
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Originally Posted by Agonus
-Players, (like my RPVG) who had fun with a casual RPVP type format. We did it sort of like pro-wrestling; work out who would win beforehand, then draw out the fight, taunting and challenging and such the whole time. It was a ton of fun, the one time it worked.
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Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
6 pages and I haven't responded here yet.. And that while I am playing an evil character that is also a vampire. Now for FFM that doesnt matter anyway. As a vampire I am already on his ignore list. Pretty permanent I would say. My ignore list is rather empty. A good roleplayer can find ways to accept almost everyone. Even a legion of catgirls. So many alien or other dimensional races that resemble cats in the multiverse.
Now.. what is evil to me?!
It is not Elizabeth being a vampire... I am using her the Bram Stoker way and include all the vampire vulnerabilities. Luckily Bram Stoker states that vampires can go out into sunlight. The vampire powers gives her her longlivety. And extra powers. But it is a need to kill for her to survive. In this I agree with FFM.
But Elizabeth was already evil before becoming a vampire. She is vain and used to getting her way. That is not evil in her eyes.. the aristocracy that time was like that. You had absolute power over your servants. But she went to far... seeying it as part fun and need to punish and torture. Using all as less then filth.. and trying to influence those that have power to fit into her plans.
Her plans to gain control and power. Enought o become untouchable. Which she still isn't. Those plans cannot be stopped by a few moral descisions like no killing or innocence. She simply goes over corpses if need be to gain what she needs. Just as easily as seduce someone. And if she can offer 600 souls for more power to a dark otherdimensional lord she will do just that. Those lives are worth the deal. Even if part of them would be friends. Only her direct family is immune. She always was a good mother and still holds family feelings for her own decendents.
This makes it possible to interact with others in all levels... But often (most) all will be seens as morons anyway. She will not tell you in your face unless you are not needed anymore. We are talking manipulation here. She is definatly not a mindless kill all for food vampire.
Evil in this game is always hard. The buildup makes it almost impossible. You cannot control other players or manipulate (unless you agree upon through private tell). You cannot destroy in mindless rage (although you can kill all inside a base during a mission). But it will be harder and/or impossible if the heroes or shady characters walking around in this game simply cannot or doesn't know how to interact with you. A person seeing me suddenly as a vampire will still be stopped inside Pocket D to stake me. That is an act of violence DJ Zero doesnt allow. Villains are just as much protected by the game rules as heroes from being simply killed. It is a two edged sword.
In comics the good side always wins
In City of Heroes both are just as strong and the rules of the game make both untouchable
So how do you rp this? You do what you can and you talk it over. I have absolutely no problem being hurt. But expect me to come back as I am not allowing my toon to die. Just as a hero will not allow Elizabeth to ripp his/her throat out. Also.. Dr Doom and the Joker also always return.
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
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I'd just like to point out, no actual PLAYERS are on my ignore list due to having vampire characters. I have zero problems with the players themselves and will happily RP with anyone. It's vampire characters themselves that I ignore, not by putting them on a list, as you can't seperate characters and globals anymore, but by just skipping over their text.|
Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
6 pages and I haven't responded here yet.. And that while I am playing an evil character that is also a vampire. Now for FFM that doesnt matter anyway. As a vampire I am already on his ignore list. Pretty permanent I would say. My ignore list is rather empty. A good roleplayer can find ways to accept almost everyone. Even a legion of catgirls. So many alien or other dimensional races that resemble cats in the multiverse.
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It's nothing personal, I just hate the genre. I find it shallow, stupid, massively overdone, and to be quite honest, completely unoriginal. But if a vampire characters player wants to RP with me, that's totally fine. Just bring a non-vampire character.
Same thing goes for elves.
Of course, people say the same about catgirls too, and that's fine! We each have our likes and dislikes, and I see no reason why anyone should have to RP with something they don't like.
The only players actually in my ignore list are the brainless gimboids who like to grief us when we're enjoying our RP.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
In the real world evil is a personal, subjective thing.
As an example, I see what the British government is doing to the poor and needy, and see that as evil. I doubt that Cameron and his peers see it that way (I could be wrong perhaps they twirl their mustaches and don top hats when not in front of a camera).
In some fictional universes it is also subjective.
Dr Doom is a good example of this, he has done some things that could be regarded as evil, 'oppressing' his people, trading his lover for magical armour, but he doesn't see himself as evil, and well it is possible to see him the same way. After all he turned a poor country into a super power, stopped starvation and poor working conditions and generally made the country a better place to live in. Depending on the writer the people of his country love him or hate him.
Moving on to the Punisher, since he is the main character of his comic book, we are to regard him as the 'good' guy, and yes usually the big boss of the arc is some sort of absolute scum bag, that most people would consider 'evil'. But what about the countless mooks that the Punisher kills along the way, people who turned to crime because they had to, only to be killed by a deranged psychopath on a revenge kick that should of ended years ago. So is the Punisher 'good' or 'evil'?
Batman is trying to prevent crime, trying to prevent any other children losing their parents, but his method of doing so inspires others to become his enemies, hurting more people in the process. Does this make him good or evil? How about the Red Hood, some one who has 'realized' that not all criminals are 'a cowardly and superstitious lot' and instead opts for controlling crime, and killing those who can't be controlled. Is he good or evil?
Now evil is not always subjective, personally I dislike this in a fantasy setting but it still happens.
The lore for Warcraft has the Light not just as the focus for a religion, but as a 'real' force and source of all good things in the universe. Likewise its counterpart the shadow is 'evil' and the source of all evil.
Which ultimately takes choice away from character in that universe, as their actions are purely reliant on how much they are influenced by either of these forces.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I'm a terrorist... who views himself as a freedom fighter.
2) He doesnt mitigate the acts with any sort of explanation or rationale. A soldier kills people as part of his job but his moral choice has been made by his commanding officer. Likewise, a vampire (seeing as they are the monster of choice in this thread so far) can point to their need for blood as being the reason why they have to eat people. These almost relieve the character of the moral burden of their choice and in the case of the vampire can make them a sympathetic character rather than a monster. Whereas real evil seems to know full well what they are doing and offer no explanation or justification for doing so other than that was what they wanted to do.
It is a mistake to view mythical vamps as a separate species.
They're humans.
In myths, aside from the victims that are enslaved to become vampires (which is only included in a fraction of the myths, actually), you had to DO something to become a vampire and it was usually marked by an intense will to fight against the natural state of things.
The idea of needing blood and gaining power from it and the tragically afflicted bitten victims started with Stoker for the most part.
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