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I can honestly say I've never seen it myself either but it's not always necessary for it to be said out loud. I've had times when I've suggested the heroes taking a loss and have encountered.... let's call it 'resistance' to the idea. Not as in: "Heroes never lose!" but just egos, people who don't want to have anything bad happen to their characters. |
Originally Posted by Fanservice
It boggles mine too, considering I haven't actually seen anyone say this.
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On the flip side, I've seen some superb roleplaying when consequences were introduced into plots with some people going to great lengths to give the outcomes weight. But if the villains are to be given a victory, you need everyone on board.
A permanent, recurring antagonist for heroes would be good but I'd want them to be fully fleshed out characters too, not just some comic villain who leaps out to torment the heroes. And that, I think, is the hard bit.
On the plus side, this thread has given me an ace idea for a new character. Who'se a vampire.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Well, now that I've sorted out the command problem I'm sure the Krimzon Guard could crop up from time to time to cause problems for the Heroes 
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
TBH Fans i dont see Paragon as a narrow point of view , given that we have Praet, Cim , Ourb, Rogue Isle , Protal corps worlds , WS and PB , Rikti , and more trans dimmensional characters that any where else , plus a large number of characters from different era's and cultures ..Paragon is a massive mix of views, opinions and tastes ..
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Prior to GR there was a binary good/evil view to the CoX-viewpoint. GR pushed things more toward an Iron/Dark Age viewpoint.
I'm not saying that the characters can't have black and white morality (though sticking to a pure good/evil view is potentially a fast track to becoming what you hate), but the players have to be aware that it's not that simple. Vigilantes are flawed heroes, not villains. They may kill, which has been defined as an evil act. Rogues, however, may think killing is unnecessary and avoid it, but they are villains. So the bad guys may be morally better than the good guys now.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
This.
Prior to GR there was a binary good/evil view to the CoX-viewpoint. GR pushed things more toward an Iron/Dark Age viewpoint. I'm not saying that the characters can't have black and white morality (though sticking to a pure good/evil view is potentially a fast track to becoming what you hate), but the players have to be aware that it's not that simple. Vigilantes are flawed heroes, not villains. They may kill, which has been defined as an evil act. Rogues, however, may think killing is unnecessary and avoid it, but they are villains. So the bad guys may be morally better than the good guys now. |
Very good points Birdie. Even back when CoH and CoV where totally seperate us RPer where making questionable heroes mainly because we are playing people rather than comic book sketches.
Our character heroes do many minor morally "wrong" things from the " i am bored , i think i will go beat up some hellions " to staying out to the wee hours at shady drinking clubs. If they really lived in the media run world we do they would spend most days explaining their actions to the press.
So to try to use RL cultural / social morals to gague good and evil is very difficult, may be we have reached the point where we need to redefine our terms into Hero ,Vig , Rog, Vill ..then qualify them with the moral , immoral , good , evil , lawful , illegal , kind, mean, and any others people can think of , labels .
Moving us from the line gragh of where you character stands , to a scatter graph, possible even in 3 D.
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4D, there's usually a temporal shift as societal and personal attitudes change.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Moving us from the line gragh of where you character stands , to a scatter graph, possible even in 3 D.
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Nitoichi - she was a hero who did not consider herself one. Her reason for becoming a hero was to train her skills to the level where Vanguard would let her carve Rikti into escalopes. She grew up in the shadow of her big brother, a "real hero" who would never have considered revenge a valid motive for a hero.
As she grew, she continued the same basic attitude to herself, but really mellowed, becoming more of the "real hero" her brother would have wanted. Largely thanks to the unity Vigil. On the other hand, at the same time, she was doing distinctly dodgy anti-criminal activities for the likes of Crimson, and became part of the UVs, um, direct action squad, shall we say. A bit of personal trauma later and she's assassinating a crime boss with a long rifle.
Now she's back to being a hero, on a far more grand scale than before. However, that grand scale in itself could be seen as an issue by some. She's willing and able to go to extreme ends for the greater good.
On the flip side, her Praetorian counterpart started out as a Loyalist. She worked for the good of society and thought nothing of killing Resistance or other opponents because they were a destabilising influence, and they were trying to kill her. (On the other hand, she was rarely faced with the bodies she actually created and was a little shocked when she ended up with real blood on her hands.) She shot her own father in the head after finding out that he had shopped her brother to the authorities for joining the Resistance.
Fleeing Praetoria, she ended up in King's Row where she met poverty and grass-level injustice for the first time. She began protecting her friends and her neighbourhood because she could. She would kill Skulls if she thought she could get away with it. As she progressed though, she became better known as one of the heroes who did not just treat King's as a stepping stone, liked it and is now more of a hero than ever.
All the above because their attitudes to what they were doing have changed.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Yet again a very good point, hopefully our characters will evolve over time, so yes 4D.
Hmm....did we define killing as a definite evil, though?
For example, the recent mini-fiction snippet I did with SABRE team, where Chief put down the unreformed villain Hammerjack. Now, yes, killing is bad. But when it comes down to a choice of two evils, it makes sense to the Chief to choose the lesser. In this case, that is using the locale of the Rogue Isles to 'legally' (i.e. theres practically no law there) to kill a Villain to prevent him from, in future, killing more innocents.
It's still not a choice any of SABRE team would take lightly, and Vix would be loathe to do it herself due to her empathic powers. Fox too has only ever 'killed' demons, ghosts, robots and Rikti on purpose. Wolf has in the past, but not without either team consideration or running out of (feasible) options.
I just don't think killing automatically make a character that fits the criteria of 'Hero' bad. Sure, if they start to see killing as the only viable option, then they've become a Vigilante or, at worst, a psychopath.
For a counter point, that is pretty much Webmaster Commander King's view. If you get out of her way then you cease to be a target. If you stand in ehr way to further power? She'll kill you without batting an eyelid. She's quite possibly one of the coldest characters I own.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Hmm....did we define killing as a definite evil, though?
For example, the recent mini-fiction snippet I did with SABRE team, where Chief put down the unreformed villain Hammerjack. Now, yes, killing is bad. But when it comes down to a choice of two evils, it makes sense to the Chief to choose the lesser. In this case, that is using the locale of the Rogue Isles to 'legally' (i.e. theres practically no law there) to kill a Villain to prevent him from, in future, killing more innocents. . |
i think you just made the point Tech ..lesser of two evils .. but still an evil, would it not have been an even lesser evil to imprison Hammerjack in you own prison, with out trial ?
or to hand him over to some other people who would keep him locked away, or cut off his limbs and remove his eyes, or send him to the Psi police fro mental reprogramming, all lesser evils than killing ? hence the scatter graph in 4D.
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Cutting off limbs and removing eyes sounds more evil than simply killing someone. Thats practically gratuitous violence against them. Mental reprogramming and suppression of free will? Cole tries that, and people see that as pretty evil. |
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
i think you just made the point Tech ..lesser of two evils .. but still an evil, would it not have been an even lesser evil to imprison Hammerjack in you own prison, with out trial ?
or to hand him over to some other people who would keep him locked away, or cut off his limbs and remove his eyes, or send him to the Psi police fro mental reprogramming, all lesser evils than killing ? hence the scatter graph in 4D. |
'Lesser of Two Evils' in that, if someone has to die, rather it be one unrepentant Villain than hundred of thousands of innocents, just to be 'better than that' or some other flawed ideal that just serves to stroke ones ego.
That's the reasoning the Chief puts behind it, anyhow. He takes no pleasure when the need to kill arises, and he only does so when leaving a Villain alive is guarentee'd to simply result in more death somewhere down the line. To him, leaving people like Hammerjack alive would be far worse a crime then taking his life, because if the villain killed more people then it was only because the Chief had the chance to stop him and didn't do it.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Ok Tech and i am being very cruel here , what your saying is it is better to kill someone than give them the chance to reform.
Yes cutting off limbs sound very evil , but what if it prevents Hammerjack from harming others while at the same time lets him live and possiblely become a different person. Unless you are going to make the claim that hammerjack is an ultimate evil that cannot be stopped. Which sort of goes against all we have beem saying about our Characters. If our Toons are not balck and white absolutes why is Hammerjack? doent that just make it easy for the hero, allowing him an excuse to kill him, rather than deal with the causes of his evil.
yes sorry it is a unfair question, but if we are going to consider our characters to this degree of depth, should we not assume the world and its peoples they live in work the same way ?
My main, Ellie, has killed. She's killed several times, and will do it again if she must. But in all that, she's not a killer and she's not evil.
She's killed in self-defense; she's killed to protect others when there was no other choice, and yes, she kills Nictus without mercy. There though, she has a complete canon "get out" clause as she's a Peacebringer, and as we all know, the Peacebringers are at war with the vampiric and evil Nictus.
Yes, I know I've questioned before whether vampires are actually evil, but the Nictus are an exception to that. They were once normal Kheldians who deliberately altered themselves in an attempt to extend their lives without needing a host. As a result, they chose to become energy vampires; feeding on others of their race in their selfish desire to live contrary to how their race is meant to exist. They intentionally became parasites instead of existing peacefully in cooperation with their host race.
Ellie's only real problem with regards to criminals is actually caused by her feline side. Cats like to play with their prey, we all know that. Ellie tends to do the same too; usually by stuffing them headfirst into garbage cans. She's also not aversed to dropping them from a mile up in the sky, though she DOES catch them before the splat.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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The point with Hammerjack was as a character with a background of his own, however sketchy, was that he was the sort of Villain that does what he does because of power. He has power and other people dont. Sure, if he wound up fighting someone with more power he'd cust his losses and flee. But robbing banks and throwing civilians around? Because he could.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Ok Tech and i am being very cruel here , what your saying is it is better to kill someone than give them the chance to reform.
Yes cutting off limbs sound very evil , but what if it prevents Hammerjack from harming others while at the same time lets him live and possiblely become a different person. Unless you are going to make the claim that hammerjack is an ultimate evil that cannot be stopped. Which sort of goes against all we have beem saying about our Characters. If our Toons are not balck and white absolutes why is Hammerjack? doent that just make it easy for the hero, allowing him an excuse to kill him, rather than deal with the causes of his evil. yes sorry it is a unfair question, but if we are going to consider our characters to this degree of depth, should we not assume the world and its peoples they live in work the same way ? |
I know game mechanics stop us from killing the Civilian NPCs that run around (except in one or two circumstances in tips/Praetoria, which I prefered due to being more IC for certain toons) but that simply wouldnt happen outside of pure mechanical function.
Hammerjack, like most NPC Villains, has seen the inside of the Zigursky many a time. But as long as he can get out on parole or thanks to Arachnos or the like, he would have kept on with his lifestyle because he liked it and because he had the power and didn't want to lose it.
Theoretically cutting off someones arms? That would just as likely make them bitter and make them look for further, less selfish and more revenge drive ways to hurt people, perhaps even make them more dangerous. Ultimate evil! = Unrepentant evil.
Mindwiping? Well, sure that could work. But doesn't that also negate the entire point of freedom of thought and speech and suchnot, much like Cole does in Praetoria? Wishing people Good is as unrealistic a scenario as it sounds.
I'm pretty much working on a model based off reality and the game world as we've been presented with it. And, yes, there are characters with moral depth and uncertainty to them, those that do evil and try to justify it or those who are forced into it. But, allowing for that, then you must also allow for, as Michael Cain delivered so brilliantly "Some men just want to watch the world burn." Because they are just as real as the shades of grey, and would be even more noticeable in a world where super powers are real and un-biased to morality.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
My main, Ellie, has killed. She's killed several times, and will do it again if she must. But in all that, she's not a killer and she's not evil.
She's killed in self-defense; she's killed to protect others when there was no other choice, and yes, she kills Nictus without mercy. There though, she has a complete canon "get out" clause as she's a Peacebringer, and as we all know, the Peacebringers are at war with the vampiric and evil Nictus. Yes, I know I've questioned before whether vampires are actually evil, but the Nictus are an exception to that. They were once normal Kheldians who deliberately altered themselves in an attempt to extend their lives without needing a host. As a result, they chose to become energy vampires; feeding on others of their race in their selfish desire to live contrary to how their race is meant to exist. They intentionally became parasites instead of existing peacefully in cooperation with their host race. Ellie's only real problem with regards to criminals is actually caused by her feline side. Cats like to play with their prey, we all know that. Ellie tends to do the same too; usually by stuffing them headfirst into garbage cans. She's also not aversed to dropping them from a mile up in the sky, though she DOES catch them before the splat. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Go for it! I'd be happy to read it.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I think this is why I like Nightwalker so much as a character. In fact, I have some fiction and background I need to write up for him and post in the IC thread, see what people think.
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Just remember though... If you want comments on it, you have to ask for them.. Since after certain personages had complete wobblers upon receiving honest criticism and wentcrying to the mods, people rarely offer it any more.
And if you DO ask for it, expect it to be honest.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Tear it apart! |
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Go for it! I'd be happy to read it.
Just remember though... If you want comments on it, you have to ask for them.. Since after certain personages had complete wobblers upon receiving honest criticism and wentcrying to the mods, people rarely offer it any more. And if you DO ask for it, expect it to be honest. |
Honestly, I practically have to fight for honest feedback and critique on my work, because it's so rarely forthcoming. And I can't hope to improve if I'm lacking that, now can I?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Always remember to use a spell checker. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And I can't hope to improce if I'm lacking that, now can I?
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Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
Always remember to use a spell checker.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Go for it! I'd be happy to read it.
Just remember though... If you want comments on it, you have to ask for them.. Since after certain personages had complete wobblers upon receiving honest criticism and wentcrying to the mods, people rarely offer it any more. And if you DO ask for it, expect it to be honest. |
They were actually quite justified in their actions, they weren't asking for criticism and you derailed their thread with your unasked for comments.
A PM would of been a million times more polite.
I mean it's not like your entirely problem free when it comes to the fiction/characters is it FFM?
Edit:
Anyone know what exactly constitutes PG13?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Darlings, handbags away please. Speaking of derails, CB.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
They were actually quite justified in their actions, they weren't asking for criticism and you derailed their thread with your unasked for comments.
A PM would of been a million times more polite. I mean it's not like your entirely problem free when it comes to the fiction/characters is it FFM? Edit: Anyone know what exactly constitutes PG13? |
OT sorta;
PG13.....uhhm....I guess nothing explicit, no uncensored swearing, nothing too graphic....?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm finding the rating rather problamatic.
One the one hand it was 'invented' in the UK for Spiderman. Which gives a sort of clearish area to aim for.
On the other hand, Taken is also a PG 13, which pours tar all over the area while going "lololololol!"
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I think the best thing to do is;
-Not go into direct gorey detail
-Not go into direct explicit detail
-Self censor ruder words (replacement letters, etc)
-Only use stuff that wanders into that territory sapringly anyway.
uSIng risque stuff 'for the hell of it' gets old real fast. It also tends not to be very interesting writing. Stuff that is much more vague and to the point tends to work better, because peoples imaginations tend to present a whole plethora of nasty images when only given things like shadows and nasty sound effects to go with.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It's more the line that is drawn for 'adult' stuff.
Anything more than a kiss seems to cross the line, meanwhile it seems its okay to graphically describe the act of ramming somes face repeatedly into a brick wall.
:-/
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
If in doubt, link to it as a PDF and add disclaimer warnings.
As for CB's comments. People used to once happily and freely give critique of stories posted in this and other threads; almost always unasked. Often, such critique was harsh but honest, and that's really the only way to go about it. Go all "softly softly" with terrible writing, and the writing will not improve.
No one EVER had a problem with it until that one time, and since then, there has been no critique.
That's not a good thing.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
The other thing to keep in mind is that PG13 likely means different things to different people, and is here being applied by American mods and being looked at by European players (since most of us discussing this are).
As far as posting to the forums goes I follow the following practice:
* I don't go over excessive in either violence or sex, though that's my interpretation of both.
* If I feel a story pushes the limits too much, I use the PDF method FFM describes.
* I am supremely confident that, if the Mods thought that I had exceeded the bounds, they would tell me and I would take the story down. When I met Ocho at HeroCon he told me that my old sig picture had been borderline, but had passed, so I'm quite confident that they will pick me up on things if I go over the limit.
(I'm also conceited enough to believe they actually read my fiction, if only for amusement. )
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Leaving aside the ethics, this brings us to the "law" dimension of this 4-D alignment structure. The Isles may have basically no law, but a hero operating there is still going to be bound by the same rules of conduct he follows in Paragon. So if this bit of information became public, I'm inclined to think it would lead to an inquiry into whether Chief exceeded the legal powers given to him by the City. As a comparison, a police officer who performed an impromptu execution of a suspect would be in serious trouble, whether he was in his home jurisdiction or not.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Hmm....did we define killing as a definite evil, though?
For example, the recent mini-fiction snippet I did with SABRE team, where Chief put down the unreformed villain Hammerjack. Now, yes, killing is bad. But when it comes down to a choice of two evils, it makes sense to the Chief to choose the lesser. In this case, that is using the locale of the Rogue Isles to 'legally' (i.e. theres practically no law there) to kill a Villain to prevent him from, in future, killing more innocents. |
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
Fleeing Praetoria, she ended up in King's Row where she met poverty and grass-level injustice for the first time. She began protecting her friends and her neighbourhood because she could. She would kill Skulls if she thought she could get away with it. As she progressed though, she became better known as one of the heroes who did not just treat King's as a stepping stone, liked it and is now more of a hero than ever.
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There's at least one entire supergroup that currently operates out of Kings Row, runs its own community outreach programmes, helps to support a public clinic, and generally does whatever it can to keep the peace there. I'm sure there are other cases where characters or groups see an area as their "turf", even though they're sharing it with a bunch of others.Since nobody can really claim an area or even a single building for their own in a free, open RP environment, the situation we end up with is again similar to that in some comic books. Multiple heroes and hero teams will be officially operating in the same area, but just happen to only run into each other on special occasions. I'd personally like to see those crossover events happen more often here, but it's going to take work on everyone's part.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
I'd say at least 1/2 to 2/3rds are to do with beating the tar out of Heroes. Certainly by the latter half your taking on Longbow every other mission and the likes of hte Vindicators and then members of the Phalanx. You just occasionally need to beat up other villains to steal the stuff they have to get to the Heroes first.