Is anyone really EVIL anymore?

The above question is one I have had rolling around my head for a while now and with the advent of Going Rogue and Tips missions, it's cropped up again. Although aimed at the Unionverse posse, I'm curious to know what other people are roleplaying and how they do it.

Simply put, whenever I try to create a properly evil character (as in, one that takes delight in others misfortune, enjoys robbing stealing and murdering) I seem to inevitably have to tone down their behaviour once they enter into social RP. The reasons for this are understandable: that just as in real life, no-one really wants to hang around with someone who'se that malevolent towards others. Most of my so called villains appear to lean far more heavily towards the Rogue worldview where what they do may not necessarily be 'good' but it is not quite the cackling villain rubbing his hands at the thought of inflicting more torture and suffering on others. And I don't think I am alone.

Real villains only seem to crop up if a plot demands it, mainly to have someone to boo and for the bad guys to beat down on. Others again seem to be firmly in the Rogue camp. So here's the question: how do you roleplay real evil and remain sociable? And where are all the true villains of the Unionverse hiding? Because I'd like to meet them.

I myself have never played anything really evil ini the first place. All my villains have always been more Rogue.
In most computer RPGs I tend to be the Paladin/WastelandJesus when ever there's moral choices.

one trick i do to "force" my evil toons to interact is to make them weak, so they are needy, for exapmle

my MM necro/FF is a normal human medical doctor , on the run from the law for unnessasary surgery, lacks funds, needs a safeplace to stay , needs to earn cash by providing medical services.. while at the same time she is a body snatching, mad doctor necromancer..

evil toons that are to powerful have no need to be social, so are not.

Nightwalker is fairly sociable. Hell, if you work for him, (and dont try to double cross him) he can be postively warm and welcoming.
Cross him? Oh, you're in real trouble. Never cross a Nictus scientist with an agenda
But he's generous with his rewards for those who work for him. After all, it's only logical to give incentives that people will talk about, thus creating more oportunities for people to work for you.

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I have a insane evil. He isnt anti-social, he has to be in order to trick people into falling into his traps. Such as poison drinks while he laughs away.

Not many of my characters qualified as true villains in the first place, but this is something I've been affected by. Hank Delacroix underwent a slow shift in his early existence, losing a lot of the evilness I'd planned for him. I still consider him evil in the way that most career criminals are: he could make a perfectly good life for himself by honest means, but chooses not to.

Of my current villains, there are two I definitely intend to keep villain-aligned, but neither has yet been tested in an RP setting. There's the evil scientist Silbermann, who cares about nothing other than restoring himself to health and his full powers, and the corrupted angel Rive, who lives for battle and will gleefully kill anything that's capable of putting up a decent fight. There's still an argument to say that they're rogues, but they both have something they believe in that they will put before wealth or long-term power, and neither would ever work with "the good guys". Both are also... less than social, but that's an enduring problem with a lot of my characters. They're actually more likely to show up in Pocket D than some of my heroes.

HEXCore would be a possible other example, but I'm currently thinking out a complete reboot of his character, the outcome of which isn't clear yet.

Then there's Hank again (image of a Rogue), Zajin (Rogue, to match its owner), Earthbond (renegade Legacy mage who'll probably end up as a mage for hire), Captain Maximus (former hero seeking redemption, so Rogue within the game framework), Lantern Red (doing double duty as a mercenary killer and rogue Malta operative), and... probably others I've forgotten.

I have a couple of truly evil characters that also manage to be sociable, but it can be hard to put the two concepts together.

Krakor comes from the world of organised crime and has a history that involves war crimes. Both of these are evils that really only exist in social groups. He's a nice guy to people he wants to get along with, or has advantage to getting along with. His true evil manifests in his ruthless treatment of his enemies, or the enemies of his allies. Only there do we really see how cold, cruel, and utterly without moral compunction he can be. He's certainly evil, but just as certainly sociable.

Drew Firstblood was raised and trained from childhood as a ruthless assassin. Her background has been just as social in its own way as that of the soldier or the mafioso. First in an order of assassins somewhat akin to a ninja clan, and taken from there into the ranks of the Arachnos Widows. She performs evil deeds as part and parcel of her immediate social grouping. Her evil is in her total disregard of any value to human life and again, an utter lack of moral questioning.

I think the difficulty, at least for me, came in trying to recreate the classic super-villain types who were, of course loners. That's just the way that comic-books and movies tend to go.

However, at the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, the fact is that some of the greatest evils really only arise from social groups. The people who brought us Nazism are also the people who go backpacking and hiking in large groups, (to the extent that single people booking into German youth hostels were viewed as slightly weird and antisocial types). Idi Amin, Sadam Hussein, Pol Pot, Ivan the Terrible, or whoever your evil historical icon of choice, these all exerted power through their forces of loyal followers.

Tyrannies only happen with large social groups. Every tyrant needs his army, his officers, and his people to subjugate. They don't get there without an ability to be social and to lead people willingly. They have friends. They have family. They have dinner parties. They give nice presents. They know how to inspire loyalty to the extent where they can convince others do commit heinous acts at their command.

You can be evil (really really evil) without needing to spit in everyones face and remind those around you all the time. Just look at how a lawyer acts (badoomboom).

The most evil people and effectively evil people understand how to control others. They know what buttons to push and what is actually going to work (will saying you are going to break the arm of the tanker really make him scared? or just think you are stupid?).

And then, the ones who are simply a pain to be around have something that other people want. How can you roleplay that? You need to really have things other people want! Get a character with a bunch of influence and HIRE some minions... order them around.. and they will put up with it because they are getting paid.

Or, be a great leader. Have something you stand for and command others through the respect they have for you. Again, this isn't the type of evil that running around stabbing them is going to help (unless it is a structure built around raw power... like a PVP guild, where you simply actually are the strongest in the guild...and anyone that tries to mouth off you take to the arena and beat down.).

I'm more of the type that likes to roleplay WITH the game and it's mechanics (instead of just sitting in a room chatting). When I wanted to make a corporate guild and private base... I actually hired grunts to earn prestige for me (paying them in influence for each prestige they made).

To unleash the true "bwaaaa ha ha!! you are all going to die!!!" evil side... i think that is best done through AE system. Make an arc where your character goes on a rampage and tries to kill everyone :P

So, i think there are lots of ways to be evil... without sitting alone in a corner burning kittens and biting anyone that comes near you :P

Pretty much what Rosen said.
Now, if only they'd add the damn Warshade powers to AE

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Dante, dear chap, do you mean comic-book evil or really evil?

Comic-book evil is anti-social. As demonstrated by the time people bring comic-book villains to GG, it simply doesn't work very well in a social RP setting. In an evil social RP setting, demented works, evil just makes everyone else want you dead.

Really evil is different. Really evil can be perfectly social. Nitoichi's evil personality, Rei, ran a night club. She had devoted followers and a henchman who was fairly hooked on her. She could be perfectly good company. She also enjoyed taking hours or days torturing people to death and would pick random people off the street to do that to. She felt she was letting people down if they died too quickly. She would kill people for breathing at the wrong moment, but I'm quite sure she'd function perfectly well at one of these meetings you mention. Aside, perhaps, from thinking everyone else there was a moron.

You can be evil, really really evil, and still have a touch of social class. You just have to remember not to mix business and pleasure. But being a fan of the White Wolf publishing games for a good bit of time it is just second nature at this point.

In That Other Game, I had a warlock who was genuinely evil. Also, hilarious and cute. Gnome warlock. Talked constantly about torturing things, ripping souls from still-living bodies, and wanting a pony. Was done partially as a parody, partially to demonstrate that a character who was funny and friendly could still be substantially creepier than people who talk about being evil as such. Which is really creepier; someone who says he's evil, or someone who says "Writhe more, Defias Enchanter! It makes Timi's toes curl up!" while draining a soul?

I think the thing is... Evil doesn't have to be completely generic malevolence. You don't have to hate everyone, or want to hurt everyone, to be properly evil. You can just want to hurt some people. You can have friends. Look at the real world evils; many of them are married, apparently happily. To someone else who may well be evil.

CoH "villain" is sort of a ridiculous parody. Think the bad guys in the old Captain Planet show, who were running a business in order to pollute, not polluting as a side-effect of cutting corners while running a business. They are often malicious for the sake of being malicious, rather than because of any particular dislike for specific people. Rather than seeing people they hate, and acting to hurt those people, they feel a desire to hurt, so they go looking for people they wouldn't mind hurting. It's... sorta silly.

You can make a character who is truly evil, but that character may well look more like a CoH rogue. To make a villain, pick people you want to hurt, and will be willing to spend money to hurt, instead of focusing on personal advancement. Or, look for power rather than wealth.

I've found that in CoH, 99% of the "evil" characters I've come across just make me want a) put them on ignore and b) scream "get away from me you terrible roleplayer!" at them.

Really... Many people try and miss by a mile; ending up making a pshychotic sicko that REALLY makes me wonder about the players own state of mind.

Ooh, so many points worth a discussion.

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Originally Posted by Dante But there are places in comic book and film history of villains hanging together be they a gang of thugs deciding to take over a neighbourhood or a circle of supervillains plotting to take over the world. These are the things I see little of in CoX roleplay. Plenty of mercenaries but not many power hungry villains. I guess I’m just curious to know why. Does their very nature make it difficult to socialise with others? Or is the RP they generate not as fun? We do lack the power to drastically alter the game world so it’s not like any threat of death rays from above could be realised. But sometimes it’s nice for that threat to be there.

There have generally been a lot more 'ruthless mercenary' RPVGs than true super-evil ones, certainly. However, the Court of the Blood Countess are certainly as monstrous as evil gets, and The League of Scoundrels are as truly super-villain evil as I've ever wanted.

Why so few, and why are mercenaries more common? Well, it is certainly easier. You need a strong hook to keep PC super-villains working together and not at cross-purposes. Both The League and The Court have an outside NPC group that keep them somewhat in line. A bigger badder thing than the players themselves that is the line they cannot cross.

The League is the one I know best, of course, and it can indeed be fun to RP, but it does take a lot more thought on plots and motives generally to have collaborative storylines. Just as CoV always declared, by introducing the newspaper missions, villains are more proactive. They make the plots rather than spot an unravel the plots of others.

And yes, an inability to change the game world, to devastate an area of the city with terrorist bombs, or jam all the police radios across the city, or, well, any great part of a meaningful super-crime is virtually impossible. The game rather limits us to smashing up cardboard boxes and trashcans while robbing a bank before we'd need the widespread agreement of the Unionverse participants.

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Originally Posted by Dante As for ‘real world evil’ then we’re talking the kind of thing that does require social groups as already mentioned along with things such as leadership, power play and legions of willing followers. That kind of thing can be created in the AE (which I have done), less so with other participants.

I think that offering rare enhancements, infamy, and similar actual rewards IC would work just fine. But friendship also works. Most of those 'mercenary' type roleplay characters will do some pretty evil acts when an IC friend asks it of them. Or if set-up, believing an innocent adversary has acted first.

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Originally Posted by Dante what levels of evil can a character do and still be socially acceptable? Would he be able to boast of eating three deep fried live kitties in front of a crowd of villains and still be acceptable or would even they blanche at the thought? Yes, there is always the suave villain who presents a sophisticated exterior to the world at large (got one of them ) but what about the person who shows no remorse for their actions? Are they doomed to be a social pariah?

It all depends on the characters in question. People can get away with a lot, if they are charming enough and seem otherwise worth turning a blind eye to. On the reverse side, someone you already dislike will be hated at the first decent excuse.

Obviously, a character who feels some need to boast about their evil is probably not a charming and likeable personality. But the character who can read his audience, makes them feel comfortable, and not seek to deliberately inflame them can get away with some fairly evil stuff.

Its simply human nature. We may abhor racism, but a charming comedian may be able to make us laugh at a pretty overtly racist joke, where the thug at the bar talking about bashing immigrants makes our skin crawl. We don't know that the comedian hasn't bashed and killed people of an ethnic minority, but he's not rubbing our faces in it. He's enabling us to accept him socially. That's the difference in a nutshell I guess.

The only truly evil character I have successfully RP'd with was an old Ice/Ice Dom of mine. Although I solo'd most of the time, taking a page form what others have said about a truly evil person rarely teaming up, I did happen to form an on-again, off-again, evil RP team with a SS/WP Brute I met doing a SF.

He and I would team up together, and spend an hour or two street-sweeping, killing anything that showed up. It was very much a "if you are alive, you need to not be anymore" type of team.

Though, we realized after the first couple of teams that if are characters were truly evil, they would likely grow to distrust each other. So, to RP it properly, we took ourselves to the arena to have a final "last evil man standing" competition...and flex our evil muscles.

He won. Soundly. I got my butt handed to me in short order, but it was one of the most fun RP duos I've ever been on.

I wouldn't consider Lotus/Chloe "evil" per se. Incredibly driven, selfish and manipulative to the point of screwing over the rest of the world and warp her interpretations of everything to suit her world-view, yes, she's certainly on that level.

My other characters (Mar in particular) would consider her bad/unlikable. What she does to them (him) could be considered evil by some. To others she's not yet walked down that slippery slope or leapt the moral event-horizon. Yet.

She still remains (just barely) functioning social though. But you *have* to take her in small doses, as I did when Theo first cropped up. Otherwise we get to the point FFM bought up, where people just want to run away screaming or stick you on ignore.

The problem is that too many rp'ers mistake criminaly insane for evil. Hitler did not rise to power because no one could stand to be around him, even though he is characterized now as just a lunatic.
A truly intelligent evil character would not be snickering and making fun of people, they would be calculating, and actually trying to make others feel at ease in their presence. They would boast on others, and become a "friend" as long as it suits their needs.
I have one character that comes to mind, Heru Mortu, who looks very normal, and speaks kindly to most. There is only a hint in his character of any kind of evil intentions, and even then would leave someone to thinking "no, he wouldn't be capable of that". He is a demon, who usually walks about with a very non threatening, business man look.
He is "rogue", for cross over purposes, but that is simply mechanics, not rp. On the rogue isles, he will usually be in his normal demon form, but in Paragon, he is always in his human form.
Of course I am not on Union, I am in the states. I think people do not realize how much fun you can have rp'ing if you and the others around you actually pay attention to the character, and remain true to the character, which is another problem with folks and their rp. Many will flip for this, then flop for that. Of course everyone always has good reasoning for it!

My problem with the puppy killing, baby eating EVIL villains is that.. well.. they're just not very interesting. There's nothing too them but a murderous rage for the world and honestly people don't really care why they got that way. They're not a compelling character as they have no real traces of humanity left in them.

You can possibly do it if they didn't use to be that way and so people can see them as a tragic or horrifying monster that destroyed a person they once knew or if being EVIL is just an affliction they have to live through irregularly (Though this one very rarely works and before you ask, no, yours probably isn't the exception). Ultimately, like all mad dogs, all we really want for them is to be put down.

It's just not as compelling as the Mad Scientist with a chip on their shoulder who doesn't want to win because he'd have nothing left or the slimy, power hungry Corporate executive who's never on the wrong side of the law but is ultimately an empty shell inside, having all the wealth they wanted but no friends to show it off too and precious little respect.

That's not to say they don't have their place, not every villain has to be nuanced and clever. Sometimes there's a nice catharsis in beating up an utter *******. But it's not really the best choice and they're not all that memorable. I wouldn't want to play one long term that's for sure!

To further this. The gratuitous acts of 'Evil!' just.. aren't particularly evil. They're overplayed and almost comical really, if you're out torching orphanages, poisoning kittens or wiping out city blocks you're too much of a caricature of evil to be taken seriously. You're not evil, you're just psychopathic and unstable.

For me real evil is acts of incredible spite, malice, jealousy or greed. Cutting someone's face just because they're prettier than you, ruining a fund-raiser because 'your' cause isn't the one being championed, starving people so you can live an extravagant lifestyle or good ol' Westen Phipps who tramples on people's hopes and dreams so they don't think to try rise above the hell hole they're living in. Evil isn't about big shock acts of mass carnage and mayhem, it's insidious and oily. I don't find the Joker particularly evil when he's trying to poison Gotham, but when he paralysed Barbara Gordon just to try drive her father insane? That was evil.

Or at least that's my opinion. It's such a nebulous word that it's certainly not the only one that could be right, if I'm right at all.

Edit: For me, True Evil is Nurse Ratched from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. She's the one that comes to mind when I think of a really black soul.

I don't think I've ever really set out to create an evil character, instead developing them based on their loyalties and needs. My character for example doesn't set out to be destroying orphanages, or killing babies, or however you want to be defining evil - what she does do, however, is carry out the will of Arachnos which involves the oppression, murder, etc, of what you might call 'good'.

It's similar to what a lot of people have alreayd said, especially in regards to those with criminal ties: if the actions are organic and based on something greater than Evil For Evil's sake, yet are still antagonistic, then I like to think you've done a much better job than you would have with anyone that was outright murderous. Psychopathic sadists are all well and good, but they tend to fall into the trap of having one trick and one trick only.

Ugh, I haven't taken part in a discussion like this for a while. Muddied thoughts.

Rei was what you got if you took a girl who likes a bit of rough sex and people's normal appetites for pleasure, wealth, and getting their own way, and then you removed all the normal moral limits on that kind of activity. She would kill or maim people because she was bored, or they looked at her the wrong way, or they didn't suck up to her just right. What she really loved was torturing people to death over the course of several days. She didn't want to take over the world, or destroy it.

Was she evil? Haven't a clue. She wasn't very nice. I think various people would have hated me if I hadn't let her get caught and 'cured' because she would eventually have got to Paragon and made some people's lives hell.


My one EVIL character is Lilith Pendragon. I barely ever play her. Her father was a dragon and her purpose is to spread misery, and gather the forces necessary to return the dragons to Earth. She fits the corporate villain mold. Generally works behind the scenes. Her ultimate goal, however, is the destruction of the world as we know it, so I guess she's pretty Evil.