Non-purpled Incarnate vs non-Incarnate purpled toons
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2010-12-06 14:03 in The Market and Inventions
My initial thought would be that the "purpled" character will out-perform the Incarnate in this comparison. You get a greater variety of bonuses from the purples. Now, that may all change as the Incarnate system extends, but as of now I don't think that having what amounts to a free slot in every power is better than the set bonuses.
Most of my characters don't have or want purples because they don't offer the bonuses I want. That said, set IO'd sans Incarnate slot trumps non-set IO'd with Incarnate slot for me.
Performance at those tasks is going to be more team dependent than anything else. But if you are talking about them as a proxy for build performance its going to depend on the AT and the combos. The incarnate boosts can be worth considerably more than the purple sets. This is going to be very true when we get to the higher levels.
Here are a couple of examples. On shield or SR toons the nerve rare will let you cap defenses with greater ease. On armor sets that have a heal spiritual with a heal is a very big boost.
For buffing/debuffing toons you also get really large benefits from the various incarnate boosts. There isn't much offered by purple sets for many of the higher level benefits from the shards.
Controllers also get some pretty nice performance benefits. Rech/Hold in one nice package is really a major benefit.
Below L45, Purple wins for sure (Incarnate benefits shut off).
At L45+, keeping a few simple principles in mind, namely:
1> Incarnate Bonuses behave like enhancements (ie. affect a power as
if you could slot extra benefit into it) rather than global benefits.
2> They still get hit by ED in the sense that the more you have of a given
attribute, the less an Incarnate will help that attribute.
3> Even cheap/simple frankenslotting outperforms SOs, both in maxing
core attributes, and providing global bonuses. Premium frankenslotting
can approach (or even surpass in some cases) some purple slotting.
These are the results I would expect:
Incarnate + SO: Purples would significantly outperform this combo. SOs are
the red-headed stepchild for performance. Yes, the PvE content is
balanced for them, but all that means is you can acceptably handle that
content -- comparatively they're well behind the set performance capability.
Additionally, Incarnates, at most, will only benefit 2 attributes, whereas
Purple sets can be much more flexible and power specific.
Incarnate + Set: This one is pretty gray, probably too close to call, on
performance... Most of the bonuses you can get on purples are also
available on sets, and since they aren't generally unique, Rule of 5 can
beat a purple. In both cases, I'd expect core attributes to be (practically)
maxxed, so that's pretty close too. The Incarnate can go above ED by
1/6 (16.7%) or more, so in that benefit, at least, the Incarnate slot either
catches up, or possibly surpasses slightly the purple. Pretty much a wash,
I'd guess.
One wrinkle. In Incarnate TF's, purples only would lose across the board.
The penalties for not having the Alpha slot equipped are extremely severe.
In terms of performance/cost though? The Incarnate + Set is a slam dunk
winner, but that's a different comparison. 
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
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For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Quite a few purple IOs have gone up in price, so this could be a less expensive solution for those who don't play the market or who prefer to slot on a budget.
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Originally Posted by FourSpeed
In terms of performance/cost though? The Incarnate + Set is a slam dunk winner, but that's a different comparison.
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You don't want recharge? That's unusual.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Most of my characters don't have or want purples because they don't offer the bonuses I want. That said, set IO'd sans Incarnate slot trumps non-set IO'd with Incarnate slot for me.
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I want softcap, and whatever recharge can fit in after that. Not a lotta defense in purple sets. I play mostly melee and defenders; I'm sure that people who play doms or other ATs get plenty more mileage out of purples.
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Originally Posted by Camper
You don't want recharge? That's unusual.
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Is this a theoretical question, or are my incarnate toons with purples wasting their time?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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I've significantly purpled: my katana/regen, my warshade, and a fire/fire blaster. Oh, and my dark melee/electric armor brute that I rarely actually play.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
I want softcap, and whatever recharge can fit in after that. Not a lotta defense in purple sets. I play mostly melee and defenders; I'm sure that people who play doms or other ATs get plenty more mileage out of purples.
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I have ten other 50 scrappers, 2 50 tanks, a 40 brute, and I'm working up a stalker (level 35 currently). One or two of them have a purple proc or two purples slotted along with 4 kinetic combats for a larger-than-average +regen. That's about it. ^_^ There aren't a lot of melee toons that can really benefit from significant purpling... well, I mean you can benefit more from other types of slotting. Anyway, if you can stuff 5 LotG +recharge IOs into your build somewhere, you've got a good start on decent recharge already. ^_^
Having purples is nice if you want massive recharge... but my purpled toons are not really significantly better than my other heavily IO'd toons.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Aha! A casually purpled warshade... |
Originally Posted by Organica
I've significantly purpled: my katana/regen, my warshade
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Originally Posted by Organica
Anyway, if you can stuff 5 LotG +recharge IOs into your build somewhere, you've got a good start on decent recharge already. ^_^
Having purples is nice if you want massive recharge... but my purpled toons are not really significantly better than my other heavily IO'd toons. |
5 lotg7.5s is 10 a-merits (or 1 bil at current market rates) which is much more attainable than 1 purple IO at 30 a-merits (or 200 mil-1 bil in the market).
I just unlocked Incarnate, so I ended up wondering how a non-purpled but Incarnate slotted build stacks up against purpled builds. Of course, it would be nice to have both, but not without a significant investment in inf.
As with most things, the answer depends.
Here's an example. I have a DM/Regen with fairly high defense (for a Regen). But it's not really practical to soft-cap DM/Regen, and /Regen loves high recharge, so there's a lot of LotGs and a purple set in the build. I went for the Spiritual boost.
I am supposing having one purple set counts as "purpled". I really think the question should be more generally about richly IO'd characters, of which "purpled" ones are a subset.
Now, some of the character's major clicks have ED-"capped" recharge in them, meaning only the ED-bypassing part of the Incarnate Spiritual line benefits those powers. But my single-target attacks, many of which have Touch of Death sets slotted in them for melee defense, only have around 63% recharge slotted. That leaves more than enough room for the entire ED-compliant part of the Spiritual boost, meaning I'm basically going to get the full +33% recharge we can get out of the uncommon boosts. There's no way I could add that much global recharge without sacrificing defense sets. That was enough improvement to let me run the optimal DPS Dark Melee attack chain with only one very small gap.
Meanwhile, though, thanks to my IOs, I still have ~70% global recharge that stacks with the ED-bypassing 11% from Spiritual for my ED capped powers.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The short answer is, "it depends."|
Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
Is this a theoretical question, or are my incarnate toons with purples wasting their time?
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There are more than one build strategy and play style and more than one ways to alpha slot. Generally, and imho, alpha slots are about covering any deficiencies in a build. They don't seem tobe good at making a build "more uber." They are good for covering areas where you have sacrificed a little something.
If your build is already doing very well, the alphas will make it only slightly better. If you have a specific weakness, like being an end hog or w/e, then the alpha slot can be a real life saver and make a larger difference.
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Right, like others have said it really depends. I've done the arc on a Ill/TA that has a few purple sets (is near perma-PA) and a BS/Regen that has no purples and is still a work-in-progress with IO in general.|
Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
Is this a theoretical question, or are my incarnate toons with purples wasting their time?
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To boost recharge on my Ill/TA, I did a few non-traditional things; Phantasm is slotted with Kinetic Crash, PA was a little light on damage (75% or so), Oil Slick is slotted with Tempered Readiness (pre-purples I was full on 6.25% recharge bonuses and it was a lot cheaper to get). Blind was slotted with Hold rather than damage.
In his case, additional recharge isn't really needed (well, I *do* need to finish up with Apocalypse in Fire Blast). Health doesn't do much good either. But there IS room for growth in damage. Bumps in ToHit Debuff and Def Debuff (Partial Radial Revamp/Radial Paragon) will be nice too.
The BS/Regen, even when he has IO slotted will have *plenty* of room for recharge in his attacks. Not as much on the healing, but I won't complain about any boost there I can get.
So, like UberGuy and all_hell said - it's about filling in gaps, I think.
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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Yes, it depends, and the whole concept of "purpled" as a distinct category of build strikes me as pointless and artificial. I have characters that would benefit very little from slotting the one or two purple sets that I could reasonably fit into their builds. I also have a couple of builds for which a few purple sets would allow me to re-arrange everything such that I'd get a significant boost in performance.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
As with most things, the answer depends.
Here's an example. I have a DM/Regen with fairly high defense (for a Regen). But it's not really practical to soft-cap DM/Regen, and /Regen loves high recharge, so there's a lot of LotGs and a purple set in the build. I went for the Spiritual boost. I am supposing having one purple set counts as "purpled". I really think the question should be more generally about richly IO'd characters, of which "purpled" ones are a subset. |
I also have a couple of builds that have very cheap purple sets slotted (like Coercive Persuasion). Almost all of my so-called mature builds have a purple proc IO or two. Do those even count as purpled?
Mostly, I have builds that could theoretically benefit from purples, but I'd need something else that's massively expensive even to allow myself to clear the space for them (namely, the PvP +DEF IO). In these cases, I'm looking at (based on prices from a week or so ago) probably 8-13 billion influence for a fairly small proportional performance gain. It's nice to think about, but I'm probably never gonna be comfortable committing so much to any one character build.
That said, to answer the spirit of the question posed by the OP -- in most cases, it's not even close. A well-planned IO build (whether it features purples or not) will tend to out-perform a generic-IO build with the Uncommon Incarnate boost. That may change as more of the Incarnate system is unveiled, but so far, we're talking (mostly) incidental bonuses for Alpha. I'm sure there are cases where a given slot unduly favors a given build, or cases where a player doesn't care about exemplaring and can thus retool his entire build around the alpha slot, but those strike me as exceptions.
The good part (if the OP's aim is to ask about over-arching balance) is that Alpha probably gives a higher proportional gain to non-IOed characters. But I doubt very much that anyone who's gone to the trouble to plan and equip an expensive IO build isn't also going to (try to) get all the Incarnate boosts for that build. Even if it takes some time
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Most of my characters don't have or want purples because they don't offer the bonuses I want. That said, set IO'd sans Incarnate slot trumps non-set IO'd with Incarnate slot for me.
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Originally Posted by Camper
You don't want recharge? That's unusual.
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The only character that I have significantly "purpled out" (5x 5-piece sets) is my Earth / Storm controller, and the extra recharge made a significant difference. I picked that character because I thought it would benefit the most from the recharge bonuses. It went from adequate for most purposes, to able to solo +4 x8 content (albeit a little slowly compared to softcapped scrappers).
My Energy / Ice blaster on the other hand, is built for survivability and utility. I chose this because I knew Energy Blast would never be top damage, so my goal was ranged defense softcap and focusing on slows / holds. Purples don't help at all with that goal, I don't think there's a single set that gives defense bonuses. Despite my focus in this build, I still find that I do decent damage, and the extra survivability makes the character very fun to play. I remember tanking Scirocco for about 30 scary but thrilling seconds on a MoSTF, after a bad pull when the tank got held by an unexpected GW. We succeeded.
Many characters I find benefit most from frankenslotting to max out more attributes per slot, well-placed procs, and some of the set bonuses on the cheaper and lesser used sets. There are a lot of sets that give accuracy bonuses, for instance, letting you use your slots for other things. The alpha slot can be quite useful here too, especially for attributes that aren't near the ED cap. Which one used is highly build-dependent, but there are a lot of possibilities.
On my Earth/Storm, I ended up going for the endurance reduction alpha boost. Even with all the fancy IOs providing extra recovery, with all that recharge I can still burn him dry if I'm not careful. Purple sets don't have a lot of end reduction in them, and don't leave many free slots to get it, so I find it quite helpful there.
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Confuse set gives 5% ranged defense when 6-slotted
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Originally Posted by MTS
It really depends on what you're building for.
The only character that I have significantly "purpled out" (5x 5-piece sets) is my Earth / Storm controller, and the extra recharge made a significant difference. I picked that character because I thought it would benefit the most from the recharge bonuses. It went from adequate for most purposes, to able to solo +4 x8 content (albeit a little slowly compared to softcapped scrappers). My Energy / Ice blaster on the other hand, is built for survivability and utility. I chose this because I knew Energy Blast would never be top damage, so my goal was ranged defense softcap and focusing on slows / holds. Purples don't help at all with that goal, I don't think there's a single set that gives defense bonuses. Despite my focus in this build, I still find that I do decent damage, and the extra survivability makes the character very fun to play. I remember tanking Scirocco for about 30 scary but thrilling seconds on a MoSTF, after a bad pull when the tank got held by an unexpected GW. We succeeded. Many characters I find benefit most from frankenslotting to max out more attributes per slot, well-placed procs, and some of the set bonuses on the cheaper and lesser used sets. There are a lot of sets that give accuracy bonuses, for instance, letting you use your slots for other things. The alpha slot can be quite useful here too, especially for attributes that aren't near the ED cap. Which one used is highly build-dependent, but there are a lot of possibilities. On my Earth/Storm, I ended up going for the endurance reduction alpha boost. Even with all the fancy IOs providing extra recovery, with all that recharge I can still burn him dry if I'm not careful. Purple sets don't have a lot of end reduction in them, and don't leave many free slots to get it, so I find it quite helpful there. |
Huh? I thought I bought a game not an Algebra quiz. I think they should start offering a class about how to understand half this stuff. But to put my two sense in I can offer this much. The Alpha slot seems to Offer a good alternative to prurple IO's, and then some. Using the cheaper IO's to boost in weaker areas, then using Alpha for whatever is lacking seems to be working good for me. Loved my Zom MM before, but now he is just friggin sweet!
What's that Puddin Pop?
...Ahhh that's the good stuff.
Sarcasm and goofy jokes do not translate well on msg boards or text msgs.
How many purpled non-incarnates are running around? Most folks who care enough about a character to purple it out will also take the time to get an alpha boost too.
I think the purple versus non-purple discussion will be more interesting once the rare and very rare boosts are released. One of the main appeals of the set bonuses is that they ignore ED. Most of my level 50 characters wouldn't gain much from a common or uncommon recharge alpha boost since most of the important powers that stand to gain from high levels of recharge are already enhanced near 90%. If I want to increase recharge beyond that, my best bet for now is to acquire set bonuses.
Not that I'm adding much to the discussion, but as soon as the rare and very rare versions of the Alpha slot and other Incarnate abilities come out that apply level shifts, the purple patch will make purpled out builds fall way behind.
More to the discussion, my current project, and only character I have or probably ever will slot purples into is my Plant/Psi/Fire Dom. I've made invincible brutes/scrappers so this time around I decided to go with a massive +recharge permadom. Thankfully I have access to a confuse, immob, and sleep to use for cheapo purple sets. I've gotten fairly lucky, as well. I got a hecatomb on an ITF the other day, a membrane on an LRSF and then another membrane on the STF the next day. Those three things and a little extra funding from my rich alts have supported the entire build.
Not sure if it's totally worth it yet, but it's damn fun. By the time I finish I'll have somewhere around 191% recharge. To top it all off I'm gonna go Spiritual Core Paragon to get even more ridiculous recharge and to help boost a few % defense.
I use purples for massive recharge and recovery. Nowadays usually to get as much recharge and recovery as I can on softcapped builds. I'm a recharge addict, I couldn't settle for softcapped defenses and 40-5o% defense, so I need as much recharge per slot as I can get. Purples fit that bill perfectly.
Slightly more on topic, purples or set IOs offer some stuff that Incarnate abilities can't touch. Incarnate abilities alone won't softcap a squishy (so far, at least 
) and they sure as hell can't give you 90+% recharge.
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Against level-shifted stuff, yes. Effectively, we could be looking at the equivalent of fighting +14 foes. (Level 54 plus as many as 10 level shifts.) That's just not even worth thinking about.|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
Not that I'm adding much to the discussion, but as soon as the rare and very rare versions of the Alpha slot and other Incarnate abilities come out that apply level shifts, the purple patch will make purpled out builds fall way behind.
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It brings up an interesting thought, though. Con color is already railed at purple for level 50 characters looking at level 54 minions. I wonder what a level-shifted mob looks like in terms of listed level or con color. A level 54 boss with 10 level up-shifts would, without some other indicator, look like a normal level 54 boss, but would abruptly wipe the floor with a non-incarnate level 50 character.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Actually the biggest thing I'm worried about with level shifts is in regards to non-IO enhancements. I.e. after 4 incarnate levels, if my combat level gets shifted up to 54, will my HOs break?
Surely not or else SO-only incarnates would be up a creek without a paddle.
If you're specifically asking about purple sets and comparing those to the incarnate abilities.... it depends. Some builds don't benifit a lot specifically from purples. But if you're just using the "purpled" term to mean any toon who heavily invests in set IOs. Then hands down IO sets are better then incarnte abilities. Incarnates only increase 1 primary stat, and possibly 1 other useful stat at a time. IO sets can exceed the value of any incarnate boost and add to many other stats simultaeously.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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Presumably it works the same as SK/Exemp - a shift in Combat Level, with everything else scaling accordingly.
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Originally Posted by MTS
Actually the biggest thing I'm worried about with level shifts is in regards to non-IO enhancements. I.e. after 4 incarnate levels, if my combat level gets shifted up to 54, will my HOs break?
Surely not or else SO-only incarnates would be up a creek without a paddle. |
Character index
I'm just curious... has anyone looked at the performance difference of Incarnate toons vs non-Incarnate toons but with Purple IOs. Specifically:
* Incarnate+SO slotted vs non-Incarnate Purpled toons
* Incarnate+set slotted (no purples) vs non-Incarnate Purpled toons
Basically, can a toon get similar or better performance as a boosted Incarnate without having to slot purple IOs?
Minimum performance criteria, off the top of my head:
- speed ITF, no deaths
- Nemesis TV liberate, diff +1x8, no deaths
- Rikti raid, no deaths
- STF or LRSF, no deaths