Great, the incarnate system requires completing a mission arc

Sorry Arcana, I have to disagree with you here. The primary reason being that the main complaint is less that (in my case, at least) I have to do an arc to access the incarnate content and more that I have to do this arc to access incarnate content. A player who wishes to go from level 20 to level 30 does not need to complete the "Mysterious General Z" arc if s/he doesn't like it. There are alternatives: other mission arcs, AE arcs, Task Forces, teaming up and doing a friend's higher or lower level arcs, etc.

As has been mentioned several times, Montague Castanella is in the same boat where access to Cimerora is gated behind his arc, and as compelling as it was the first time, the reaction that I hear about Monty's arc tends towards "Crap, I have to do this again?" Especially when you accidentally forget that the character you wanted to bring for an ITF hasn't actually done that arc yet.

If there were several options behind the unlock, this wouldn't be a problem. The arc is new and fresh now, and having just played it it's ok, but by the time I have to run my 10th character through it the arc becomes a meaningless chore. Even one other option for unlocking it, like the previous merit-buy or a TF would be nicer than always being channeled down the same path. Naturally, it comes down to developer time available, and I guess they've got better things to do than to add a couple of arcs to accomplish the same thing, but I still feel that the majority of this thread is being unnecessarily harsh on the OP. (Though that probably has something to do with the confrontational tone the OP has had from the start)

In a delicious parallel to Mission 1 of Ramiel's arc, the Incarnates of the forum have joined forces against a common foe.

With as much effect on said foe as in the arc lol.

Limitless Radial Waaah ftw, obviously.



Eco

PS OP, apologies if you're offended. This post is tongue-in-cheek. Hopefully the suggestions to autocomplete what you can will allow you to avoid content while you're working towards, er, accessing content.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

I disagree. All of what you mentioned are cosmetic items, and I agree with how silly it is to gate them. The Incarnate system IS NOT cosmetic, and should not be treated as such. The Incarnate system is wholly and entirely a gameplay system. It will need gameplay to unlock and explore. To wish otherwise is missing the point.

You CAN still compare this to the arc needed to unlock the Midnight club or the arcs to unlock the Recluse SF or the Caverns of Transcendence or the Ernesto Hess TF. Those constitute gameplay locked behind other gameplay, and are more appropriate comparisons. Hazard Zone levels used to be, but they no longer exist, except on Cimerora, Ouroboros, The Hive, The Abyss and all four PvP zones.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

PEBCAK

You don't need to fight very many of those rikti at all. I worked this out first time through in the beta without being told how to do it. If you just try it in "button masher" mode, it's a lot more difficult than if you think your way through it (and pull the 2 EBs sequentially out of the room without aggroing many of the portal spawns). I used a vet blackwand .

Maybe cos all you have said to date is I don't want to do the arc to unlock the content without offering any other way to unlock it.

Of course there hasn't been an official declaration. Had you read farther than the first paragraph, you would have understood that I meant
And that
Interestingly, you supported my statements just two posts after saying there was no official decree:
Therefore, while people are free to run the Incarnate arcs as many times as they wish, doing so in excess diminishes the specialness of the Incarnate status for their characters and becomes a self-fulfilling time sink for the player.

If someone has the time to run fifty Level 50s through all ten (or more) levels of Incarnatedom, then more power to them (pun intended).

However, the player should realize that they will be required to grind the equivalent of 500 levels and will not find much sympathy if they grouse about how tedious the process is or how doing one set of Incarnate arcs should unlock Incarnate status for all of their Level 50 characters.

No I won't run them 40 times because I don't have 40 50s. I will run them about 10 times, however, because I have about 10 50s. What I said in no way indicated that I believe there are 50s who SHOULDN'T partake in the system, merely that people don't tend to have as many 50s as they've had characters at level 10.

I fully believe that all players should expect to engage all of their 50s in the incarnate system. I just don't think people have as many 50s as they have alts, but this changes nothing either.

*edit*
Says you. I happen to disagree.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

And I would tell you to go to Hell in a handbasket.

Getting zerged by infinite waves of rewardless Rikti minions after I had to beat down Holtz slowly thanks to her ****ing Curse? Yeah, screw that. It wasn't challenging, it wasn't fun, it was a case of I can't actually kill you all because my Bots AoEs are hitting the god damn target cap!! Oh, yes, and the Honoree can two shot me if he gets lucky vs my defences. Very plausible since he's an EB.

Fighting two EBs I can DEAL WITH. Thats fine, and also a decent challenge (even if Holtz's powers are immensely cheaty)
But those Portals are the biggest load of **** I have run into recently. And y'know what? I beat the mission. And then my net crashed when I was talking to the Honoree. You bet I was dropping that like a hot rock as soon as I logged back in!

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Hush now dear, the people who bother to read the reasoning are talking

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Players are free to engage as many characters as they wish if they have both the time and inclination to do so. That is a personal choice.

However, your assertion that
is flawed in that some people actually care about their characters and do not view them as valueless pieces in a dusty collection.

If people *want* to have an army of uber-l33t cookie cutter characters, that is certainly their privilege. However, that privilege does *not* extend to demanding that the Devs reduce the time necessary to open the 1-10+ Incarnate slots on *each* of a player's characters.

I have several Level 50 characters who *could* be run through the Incarnate system, but it really only makes sense for Amerikatt to gain Incarnatedom.

Besides, Incarnate status only applies to Incarnate-specific content, which the OP doesn't seem thrilled to unlock for even a single character.

Hard to target through 100+ Rikti all with names over their heads.
Hard to get near through said Rikti
Hard to actually hit when all AoEs are insta-target capped.
Hard to deal with all that AND Angry EB.

Next.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

"Some people" need to stop using straw men, because "some people" are constructing a top-heavy fallacy. Because "most people" are fully capable of caring about ALL of their characters and not just some but not other characters. If "some people" prefer to design some characters they respect and other characters they don't care about, that's "some people's" prerogative. "Most people" don't face that dilemma, because "most people" are capable of running and caring about multiple characters.

Unless you're Golden Girl.

Again, says who? You keep making those absolute assertions like you're making the rules and designing the systems, but you're not. You don't have a development studio backing you up, so please stop acting like you do. In not a single official statement have any of the developers so much as hinted at this system being only for some characters on an account, but not for all. This is something you made up for yourself, and while you're free to believe this, it is neither your place nor your right to dictate how people play or what they campaign for. At no time were we told that only our "mains" would be applicable for the Incarnate system, so to claim people should have known better is both arrogant and insulting.

No offence, but I dare say the fact that it doesn't "make sense" to earn Incarnate status for more than one character is your own failing of either narrative or imagination, from where I'm standing. You are certainly free to be a one-character player, but to suggest that we should all be in a game that was built from the ground up, advertised, marketed and praised as a game that is friendly to making multiple characters and "altoholism" is out right absurdity. In fact, Positron himself has been caught as suggesting that people make more characters when they reach 50, that their design strategy is to support alts and that they have expressely NOT introduced systems (such as AT respecs) for no reason other than because they devalue the act of making and playing alts.

You have no ground to claim this. Either back up your completely baseless claims with something tangible or stop pretending they're provable fact.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Usually I like you, Alpha, but this whining has to stop.

/macro Portal "targetcustomnext portal"

Done.

I have only had the time to duo this mission with a friend. I brought my tank, but I ignored the portals and held the EBs while she ran around plant controlling "100+ rikti all with names over their heads." Halfway through the fight, I realized that Honoree was there with Holtz, which also explained why my health bar moved. I never went near the portals, and she accidentally managed to destroy them herself.

This is going to be a piece of cake on my bots/traps, and easier still for my warshade. I'm slightly worried about my warshade taking on trapdoor, since I won't have an army to buff myself up with, but there are still more than enough ways to deal with him.

Sam read perfectly well, this is a strawman argument. You are saying that anyone who engages all their characters in this system must view them as valueless pieces in a dusty collection.

To expand a bit on this, some of us (that is to say, I and at least a few people I know) are just suckers for "grand scale" characters, and tend to make more than one of those. I have, in no particular order:

1. An alien princess who inherited the very power of creation.

2. An alien usurper who stole the very power of destruction.

3. An archdemon who emigrated to Earth because he was dissatisfied with the dilapidation of hell.

4. An immensely powerful psychic with godlike powers who has an ancient demon sealed inside her.

5. An ancient who is completely and entirely unkillable and older than he can remember.

6. A dictator with all the power of the planet if he really put his back into it.

7. The de-facto goddess of an alien world with power enough to rule it all just by herself.

And that's without really thinking about it too hard, or really mentioning many of my ACTUAL signature characters. That's just how I and a few others like designing our concepts. In the current system, these characters are still limited to being top-level but unremarkable supers when they were meant to be godlike. The Incarnate system will allow them to be as godlike as I wrote them to be without actually developing Mary Sues with informed abilities but being much weaker than they should be in actual gameplay.

To me, a concept isn't interesting unless it has the potential to be godlike of its own making and on its own devices, hence why I have not a single character for whom Incarnate powers wouldn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Sam made a statement in absolute terms:
Thus, it is Sam who has made a broad, sweeping statement of what he expects people to do.

I countered that argument by asserting that some people prefer to give their characters individuality and do not blindly follow the 'flavor of the month' lemmingry so prevalent amongst a certain strata of game player.

Throughout this thread, I have simply advocated that the Incarnate system may not be right for certain characters. I have *never* told anyone what they *should* do.

The topic of this thread reflects that some people do not care for numbing repetition in order to fulfill an objective. If some people want to grind what is supposed to be the most difficult content currently in-game, I'll certainly not stand in their way.

You're missing the fact that this game is designed around making alts. It's not Sam, but the devs that have enforced what Sam has claimed.

Actually, what Sam said is rather less absolute if you quote Sam's entire sentence, which read more like:

Stripping the "I fully believe" part does indeed make it sound like an absolute statement, just like stripping the "in my opinion" part does to almost anything that features it. I still fully believe that all players should expect to partake in the system with all of their 50s without being laughed at. Just in the same way as I can expect to get all of my characters to 50. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not for years, but I'm getting there, and so far no-one has ever told me I can't or I shouldn't try.

If the game is designed right now to disallow that, then I believe it should be changed, and I will remain convinced of this, because to me, that makes for a better game. I have no problem with picking who to explore the Incarnate system with FIRST. I have a very serious problem with picking who to NEVER explore the Incarnate system first because Amerikatt says I can't.

Thus insinuating that I'm the kind of brainless oaf which follows "flavour of the mnth lemmingty" and completely discounting by intentional omission that I may actually have reasons to want to make more than one character an Incarnate that don't speak to low intelligence and weakness of character. And I say "intentional omission" because you build an argument on the assumption that your interpretation of the system is the only one valid and so the system is justified in excluding people like me.

You put together a top-heavy fallacy because you used an obvious straw man as the basis for your entire thesis. Giving characters individuality is in no way hampered by the number of characters one wants to give individuality to. Some of us are easily capable of managing loads and loads of characters while still keeping them unique, distinct and personable. Some choose not to, obviously, and that is well within their right.

However, what you have no right to claim is that because YOU chose to focus on only some of your characters, we are somehow wrong on wanting to focus on them all. Your argument fails because you CAN want to have multiple Incarnates and still be very much concerned about the personalities, stories and concepts of your characters.

In fact, I find it odd to claim otherwise, unless you specifically and intentionally make garbage characters with the full understanding that you care nothing for them. I, however, don't. Every character I make and keep I do so because I care about that character's concept and want to see that concept fulfilled. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have made the character, or deleted him within a few levels. I have not a single character without a bio written that ran into the space limit in the text field, so to insinuate I don't care about my character is frankly insulting to me. Especially since you clearly don't know me.

No, but you've repeatedly insulted the intelligence and dismissed the writing of people who don't do what you feel they "should" do. You don't have to tell a person he can't do something if you tell him he CAN do it, but he's stupid for wanting to.

*edit*
And again, there's the game's general policy of altoholism. No other MMO that I'm aware of gives players this many character slots to use, and most other games have systems devised around people only ever playing one or two characters that they can never "finish." As players have shown already, you very much CAN finish this game, even with Incarnates included. What you do thereafter is make more alts and do it all again. That's what the developers have told us, that's what the game's systems are built on, that's why you can outlevel content. This is how the game is designed. To suddenly U-turn on that philosophy is unreasonable.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I am not missing that fact at all.

However, there is a vast difference between getting several (dozen) alts to Level 50 and getting those alts partially or all the way through the Incarnate system.

For the characters which Sam cited, it makes sense to explore the fullest extent of the CoH game system, which is, at present, the Incarnate content, and to do so multiple times.

For other people, such as myself, such power levels would not be in-character for more than a tiny percentage of their characters.

It really boils down to how much work a person is willing to do to help their character(s) realize their fullest potential.

However, grinding for those Incarnate levels should not be diluted.

Thanks for clearing that up. I hate seeing someone misquote to make an invalid argument.

I, myself, was diligent enough to walk back through the posts because I didn't believe you'd make such an "absolute statement." However, I am aware many people may be fooled by such an abhorrent attempt to construe statements.

For which I'm surprised you're not getting more support. Almost all of the players I regularly run with in the game have an assortment of characters that range from gumshoe detectives and street-level vigilantes to super science accidents, cosmic entities, demi-gods and beyond. This is partly a reflection of comic book universes. After eighty years of comic book universes, this shouldn't seem that strange.

My street-level vigilantes aren't going to become godlike just because new mechanics have been inserted into the game. My godlike characters, on the other hand, will be re-affirmed in a sense by these mechanics.

Less than a quarter of my characters will become incarnates, and I know a lot of people who can relate with this. All of Samuel Tow's characters will become Incarnates, and Samuel knows a lot of people who can relate with him. This variety in playstyles does not hurt anyone.

But don't get me wrong. People should feel free to argue about this over the Internet, if that's what they're into.

People have always been willing to put in the work. We didn't get multiple 50s by sitting on our hands, after all, and no, we didn't get them from monkies, wolves, freaks or what have you. I know I got mine there the hard way.

However - and I will say this again - to claim that Incarnate levels "should not be diluted" to account for people maybe possibly wanting to play another character again in their lives is unreasonable. It runs contrary to the whole rest of the game. It makes no sense for the game to encourage the making of alts if the game won't actually allow you to use those alts all the way to the end.

You assert that the game should be built around focused-character players, when the fact of the matter is it isn't. It never was. New systems, therefore, should not be built with the expectation that people will, in fact, abandon their alts that the same game encouraged them to make.

If anything, the baseline assumption should be that the new system SHOULD be kind to alts, if in no other way than not being openly hostile towards them. At this point in time, it's harder to make the argument that the system should be padded to account for people who will only ever play one character through it.

This is out level cap increase, even if they don't call it that.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.