Dual Pistols Underpowered?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-11-03 07:25 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
I tend to get annoyed with both Executioner's Shot and Shout due to the long animations. It's not a huge deal, just an annoyance. I think increasing the portion of the damage that Swap Ammo changes to 50% or so would be perfect... DP would still be average to slightly below average in total damage output, but it would actually be able to use Swap Ammo to overcome resistances. Right now most of the damage stays Lethal so you only get a minor boost.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Well, to be fair, Executioner's Shot is all of .5-.6 seconds longer than most Tier 3 blasts of the same caliber, and on par with Sonic. so it's not out of the park and painfully slow. YMMV, of course, but it's not way off. I've argued to lower the animation time, but it wouldn't look right. Upping the endurance use and recharge to have it do a bit more damage and be on par with those other Tier 3s would maybe do the trick. But that's all the set really needs (other than maybe upping its secondary effects, or upping the % of damage done from the different ammo types).
|
It's not that I hate the set, I just think it's about 10% behind where it needs to be. Not bad enough that I won't play it, just a bit annoying... I can definitely tell a difference in how fast it takes to drop a spawn compared to my archer. It's not really being a min/maxer (I do play sets other than Fire
), just seeing that mobs I 3-shot on other Blasters need a fourth hit to take down.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
Quote:
Overgeneralize much? I min/max heavily, and every one of my characters has a carefully considered description that meshes with game canon and sometimes involves researching real-world history or mythology. They all have different costumes, often with a lot of time spent fiddling with their powers to make the costume and power colors complimentary.|
Originally Posted by Brakner
It’s called min/max mentality. These are the types than have never done a Bio, call their toons the same name but with a 1 or 2 or 3 after it and use the same costume on everything but change the belt and boots
 . God forbid it take me 1.7 second longer to kill 15 mobs. |
Don't be such a dork.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
um the smiley face and really silly generalizations should be your first clue, sarcasm much?
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Overgeneralize much? I min/max heavily, and every one of my characters has a carefully considered description that meshes with game canon and sometimes involves researching real-world history or mythology. They all have different costumes, often with a lot of time spent fiddling with their powers to make the costume and power colors complimentary.
Don't be such a dork. |
It's the internet! Of course not!
Mea culpa. I've seen too many posts like that which were dead serious.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
They have issues with it, because they all want an Armor Secondary to go along with Dual Pistols |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Anyway, for the rest of the set, it's middle of the road. Does pretty well for AOE, too, actually. Not sure why people have issues with the set, as it's pretty darn good to me. I'm enjoying my Dual Pistols Blaster quite a bit.
|
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
One already exists.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
As a side note, has anyone considered putting together a guide to this (if one doesn't exist already)?
|
I blame Culex.
Quote:
At least they don't have a lame secondary like Trick Arrow.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
They have issues with it, because they all want an Armor Secondary to go along with Dual Pistols
|
Trick Bullet does sound all that appealing though...
Quote:
See, you need to be careful there. Some of the animation times are longer than other sets, but as far as damage goes, Dual Pistols is middle of the road. It's still not going to be for everyone, but that's how all the powersets work.|
Originally Posted by Vega
Yup! but I still like 'em
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
I tend to get annoyed with both Executioner's Shot and Shout due to the long animations. It's not a huge deal, just an annoyance. I think increasing the portion of the damage that Swap Ammo changes to 50% or so would be perfect... DP would still be average to slightly below average in total damage output, but it would actually be able to use Swap Ammo to overcome resistances. Right now most of the damage stays Lethal so you only get a minor boost.
It's not that I hate the set, I just think it's about 10% behind where it needs to be. Not bad enough that I won't play it, just a bit annoying... I can definitely tell a difference in how fast it takes to drop a spawn compared to my archer. It's not really being a min/maxer (I do play sets other than Fire ), just seeing that mobs I 3-shot on other Blasters need a fourth hit to take down. |
I would say the secondary effects being upped, and maybe the tier 3's damage/end cost/recharge might be the way to go to really stop people talking. I don't know how well we can make that argument to Castle, though, as I don't notice my Dual Pistols Blaster having any issues that my Energy/Energy isn't facing: and that Energy/Energy is one of the best Blasters I have ever played... and I have a lot of them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
They have issues with it, because they all want an Armor Secondary to go along with Dual Pistols
|
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I like the debuff attributes very much on defenders. Three AoEs in an kill zone of defender debuff can make a big difference.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
DP for fenders I find to be great damage, but i wld never pick it up for a blaster or corr.
Personally, as a whole, I find it's pretty much on par with the other shooty powers, although since I don't min/max or number-crunch I'm sure I can be proved *technically* wrong on that.
I think that some changes could be made to make the set a bit less middle-of-the-road though:
* Up the effectiveness of the secondary effects. A little more knock-down/stun, a little more slow/-regen, a little more -def, and maybe a little better chance for Dot. Nothing game breaking, but bit more utility would go a long way to making this set stand out.
* Trim the animation time just a tad and/or offer a less "gun-fu" set of animations.
* I'd personally, would have liked an "aim," but here's an alternative:
How-about an inate ability - once swap ammo is selected - that has a percentage to *suggest" the best ammo to use? Could be a little orange ring (ala DB combos) after you successfully "roll" the percentage chance?
Just a thought
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
Quote:
The numbers have been run. It's not the worst, it's just not the best at anything.|
Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
Personally, as a whole, I find it's pretty much on par with the other shooty powers, although since I don't min/max or number-crunch I'm sure I can be proved *technically* wrong on that.
I think that some changes could be made to make the set a bit less middle-of-the-road though: * Up the effectiveness of the secondary effects. A little more knock-down/stun, a little more slow/-regen, a little more -def, and maybe a little better chance for Dot. Nothing game breaking, but bit more utility would go a long way to making this set stand out. * Trim the animation time just a tad and/or offer a less "gun-fu" set of animations. * I'd personally, would have liked an "aim," but here's an alternative: How-about an inate ability - once swap ammo is selected - that has a percentage to *suggest" the best ammo to use? Could be a little orange ring (ala DB combos) after you successfully "roll" the percentage chance? Just a thought |
I think there's be a lot less complaints, if Hail of Bullets was put on the same Recharge as Full Auto or Rain of Arrows.
All three have roughly the same animation.
HoB and RoA have 20.8 End Cost for roughly the same damage.
FA has a 15.6 End Cost for a little less damage.
FA and RoA however have the same recharge of 60 seconds, while HoB is at 120 seconds.
Others will also likely say RoA and FA have the advantage of range. Personally I like the PBAOE of HoB more (purely opinion
not a which is best statement)If they ever decide to lower the recharge of HoB to match RoA and FA, I think a lot less people will complain.
Though, another thing they could do, which would be different imo, is turn HoB's defense buff into a longer buff to make the set a more defensive set.
Just thoughts. Even after either one of those thoughts, I'm sure people would still complain.
Personally, I love the set.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Well, play what you want, but it's a great set for Blasters, too.|
Originally Posted by KnG
DP for fenders I find to be great damage, but i wld never pick it up for a blaster or corr.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
Personally, as a whole, I find it's pretty much on par with the other shooty powers, although since I don't min/max or number-crunch I'm sure I can be proved *technically* wrong on that.
I think that some changes could be made to make the set a bit less middle-of-the-road though: |
And I know you weren't trying to be extreme with your post, I'm just pointing that out as one of the weird ways people think about Dual Pistols. People point out it's middle of the road, but people keep thinking it needs more. Odd, when you realize that.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
I totally agree |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
See, you need to be careful there. Some of the animation times are longer than other sets, but as far as damage goes, Dual Pistols is middle of the road. It's still not going to be for everyone, but that's how all the powersets work.
|
With Dual pistols, for me, it's all about what you pair it with. My four Dual pistoleers are /Mental /Devices /Dark and /Rad.
With the mental, I get a mini build up with concentration, so I hit it, then Psychic Shock wave, then Hail of bullets. Using fire rounds, most things are dead pretty quick.
With the /Devices, it's Superspeed +cloaking device. Lay a trip mine, then HoB, and hope I live. I'll admit this one is not too durable, but he's fun in his own way.
The Corrutpors
the /Dark is a beast. Tar patch, shadowfall, superspeed, fearsome stare, and Fluffy make him one of my favorite characters.
the /rad is a good support toon, Empulse, and HoB are OK when used together, but I am a huge /rad fan, so I was making that combo no matter what. It gets better on a team if someone dies and I can throw fallout into the mix.
I like the set, but I'm not gonna try to sell anyone a bridge of awesomesauce. It's a meh damage set, with long animations that make absolutely no sense, but to me it's fun to play. Besides, the nuke doesn't crash your end bar
(After looking at another thread, I think i am going to try to work Choking Cloud into my /Rad's build for giggles.)
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
Quote:
OMG WTF LOL LRN2PLY N00B!|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
See that last part? I can almost see Castle *headdesk* to that. The set is middle of the road, but it needs more? Not every set can be top of the line, nor should they be.
And I know you weren't trying to be extreme with your post, I'm just pointing that out as one of the weird ways people think about Dual Pistols. People point out it's middle of the road, but people keep thinking it needs more. Odd, when you realize that. |
Heh...
"Middle of the road" might have been a poor choice of words. What I meant is that, there's nothing that particularly stands out about DP which is a shame because it's got "Swap Ammo" which, IMHO (and I said as much in beta), with a bit of an increase in the secondary effects would shift some peoples opinion from "meh" to "wow."
And I thought of another cool (as far as I'm concerned, 8D) idea with Defenders in mind.
"Special Ammo" instead of "Swap Ammo"
Chemical Rounds could have a "Poison Trap" effect, Cryo Rounds could have an effect like "Flash Freeze" and Incendiary Rounds could be like "Flashfire"
Just tossing it out there
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
Swap Ammo and the combination of powers are pretty unique (not to mention the look of the attacks), but even though changing out 30% of the lethal damage for another type sounds like a lot, I've seen the math analysis that shows it doesn't make THAT big of a difference, unfortunately. So I could see changing the percentages as improving the uniqueness of the set.
And I don't know the numbers as well for Defenders, but do they really need an extra mechanic, or just higher debuff numbers for what it already does? Adding new effects would be a lot of work.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
You do have to be a little careful with that analysis. If the per attack damage is truly middle of the road (meaning its attacks deal something near mathematical average damage compared to other sets), but the animation times tend to be as long or longer than other sets, then that's going to make the set deal lower than average damage over time.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
See, you need to be careful there. Some of the animation times are longer than other sets, but as far as damage goes, Dual Pistols is middle of the road.
|
Damage over time can be an important performance metric, at least for solo or small team play, where the DP character's damage contribution is a large part of the total. Your short-term damage rate over time is, of course, very important to lone Blasters because defeating stuff sufficiently fast is a huge part of staying alive. But there's a longer view where it translates directly into things like how fast you progress through missions, or how fast you level.
I don't get the sense that DP's performance is such that it's actively bad to play. It's not so slow at killing stuff that it can't solo, or that the general population is giving up on leveling it. Instead, I am betting some of the "complaints" about it are more about it not being as capable of soloing (at some personal standard of speed/success) on as high an elevated difficulty settings as some older sets. It's not so much that DP doesn't work, as that it may not work as well. On the internet and on-line games, that kind of thing often gets turned into binary statements about suitability.
It's true that every set can't be above average on any given metric, such as DPS. But it is possible in a game like this for sets with, say, average (or lower) DPS to shine in other areas. Despite, or perhaps because of its flexibility, it's hard to say what DP shines at other than looking good. And to be honest, looking good has carried the set what I consider to be surprisingly far.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The versatility is the weakness of the set as much as a strength. Say you do find an enemy that is weak to one of your attacks. You still need to toggle swap ammo off every time you fire of piercing shot in order to get the res debuff and the same if you are able to stack disorient with another team member instead of hold.
And yes, it's good with AoE, but you have 1 PBAoE and one narrow cone, so to effectively use both, you have to move in and out of combat.
It's an awful lot of button pressing and micromanagement to get it up to the level of being about even with everything else.
Quote:
I came up with a solution to that that works for me. I have a macro that turns off my ammo toggles when I fire PR and then bound my movement keys to turn on my chosen ammo toggles (with a set of macros to change which ammo toggle they turn on). It's not a perfect solution since you still generally get 1 or 2 attacks with lethal rounds between using PR and re-toggling the ammo but it does reduce the need to manually manage the toggles.
|
Originally Posted by rsclark
The versatility is the weakness of the set as much as a strength. Say you do find an enemy that is weak to one of your attacks. You still need to toggle swap ammo off every time you fire of piercing shot in order to get the res debuff and the same if you are able to stack disorient with another team member instead of hold.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by rsclark
The versatility is the weakness of the set as much as a strength. Say you do find an enemy that is weak to one of your attacks. You still need to toggle swap ammo off every time you fire of piercing shot in order to get the res debuff and the same if you are able to stack disorient with another team member instead of hold.
And yes, it's good with AoE, but you have 1 PBAoE and one narrow cone, so to effectively use both, you have to move in and out of combat. It's an awful lot of button pressing and micromanagement to get it up to the level of being about even with everything else. |
Since the narrow cone with resistance debuff replaces a snipe you'd probably never use, I don't see how it's a penalty.
Quote:
In my case it's why I DON'T have any dp toons. I DON'T think the set looks good. At all.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Despite, or perhaps because of its flexibility, it's hard to say what DP shines at other than looking good. And to be honest, looking good has carried the set what I consider to be surprisingly far.
|
It's just . . . not my taste.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
This is actually the set's biggest problem (at least for some people). It's fantastic for making an over the top gun fu character (now if only we had a secondary with martial arts attacks to pair it with) but some people want a realistic pistols set, like Malta Gunslingers use. After all, if a cop started tossing his gun around like that on the tactical course he'd be laughed off the range and sent for a psych evaluation... |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
In my case it's why I DON'T have any dp toons. I DON'T think the set looks good. At all.
It's just . . . not my taste. |
I'm sure a lot of people with police or cowboy characters hate the DP animations.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
Yeah. I should note that I don't have a DP character of any AT, because, well, the gun-fu thing isn't really what I want to play. (This despite being a big fan of Equilibrium.) I still think it's fun to watch when teammates use it though. Even if it's not what I want to play, I think they did a good job with what it is.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It ought to be really easy to create alternate animations for dual pistols where the character just draws the pistols, aims and shoots. But if they do that I think people are going to just complain that they take too long aiming, since the alternate animations would have to run the same length of time as the originals.
I kind of suspect however, that even without the flashy moves, that any real cop who tried to aim two pistols at once would be laughed off the firing practice range.
Is it underpowered?
Ehh... maybe a bit. It feels worse on Blasters, I think.
Is it slow?
Yes. So many times yes. Taking a look at the numbers in Mids, I do believe that it is, overall, the slowest set available. (Not factoring in Snipes, at least. Snipes are all very long, but DP doesn't have one...)
Still, I might be able to deal with the slow speed. But I'm stuck on the other Dead Horse when it comes to Dual Pistols - I didn't want Gun-Fu. I think the effect looks extremely silly, and does not fit in at all with any of the concepts I wanted to have Dual Pistols for.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-