Energy : Buff needed
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2010-10-16 19:51 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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That's as an extreme a position as saying that any energy blaster or Peacebringer should be /kicked immediately.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Refusing to learn to work with what's in the set you chose, yes.
Refusing to learn to work with a set someone else is playing, yes. And yes, that includes saying "Hey, could you aim *into* me instead of knocking things away, or direct that into a wall" if you're melee. It doesn't take long for anyone with two brain cells to rub together to figure out "Oh, if I hit that, it has a good chance of going back that way. Maybe I should pay attention to what I'm doing and act accordingly." Refusing to do that, or just whining that "omg that set has knockback it's ebil and must be nerfed?" Yes, that lands solidly in the "idiot" pile. It's not, despite what you're trying to do here, about "Other sets have other effects," so don't try twisting it that way. It's about not bothering to use the effects of the set you chose effectively. |
Some folks don't like KB and they are not idiots for not wanting to learn about it. Plenty of folks don't bother to learn about the market or IOs, a decision that hurts them a lot more, but they aren't idiots, they just don't enjoy that aspect of the game. Likewise, some folks don't like KB. Some folks make the quite rational decision not to use a set that has it while other more valuable secondary effects are available in other sets.
Calling people idiots who make rational decisions based on their subjective enjoyment of the game is, as I said, extreme at best. At worst it brings to mind a saying about a pot and a kettle. Now how does that go...
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I'd never be mean and call you an idiot, but you have said things like Energy is subpar for damage and doesn't do AOE... when it's a middle of the road blast set. In other words, there are sets that are weaker and stronger than it for ST and AOE damage, which is a decent place for it to be, especially since you get so much mitigation from knockback (you really do get a lot of mitigation... my En/En Blaster is safer and easier to play than most of my other Blasters).|
Originally Posted by Redd Rumm
Wow!! my feelings are hurt lol . why do i have to be all kinds of idiots just cuz i want a damage buff( im looking at you memphis bill ! )
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Anyway, such statements mean you don't know as much about the set. I think people would be nicer if you had come in and asked about what is good about Energy Blast, rather than suggesting it needs buffs when you don't quite know the set.
I think those that like Energy Blast are a bit more defensive than needed, as there have been some unreasonable types that kick people for doing knockback, which is just silly. Energy is a good set and in line with all the others. If you like the look and the feel of knocking guys about and doing good damage, run with it.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
It doesn't take long for anyone with two brain cells to rub together to figure out "Oh, if I hit that, it has a good chance of going back that way. Maybe I should pay attention to what I'm doing and act accordingly."
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I feel that you are not understanding where some of us are actually coming from.
I do not have an issue with knockback per se. What I have an issue with is knockback that is tied to every single DPS power. Energy Blast may be "average damage" on paper, but in practice, suffers from a need to constantly monitor and limit its own secondary effect by repositioning itself and/or avoiding shots other characters could have taken with impunity. As I said previously this becomes especially noticeable on lower damage ATs like Defenders who end up knocking stuff around without really killing it. If you just wanted to knock stuff back there are much better ways to do it than having it wrapped up in your main source of DPS.
I don't think Energy Blast necessarily needs a buff. But please don't act like anyone who doesn't like Energy Blast, or who would take an AoE immobilize power to limit the (IMO mostly troublesome) knockback is simply stupid. That's.. well it's stupid.
In my opinion, energy would be much more enjoyable if the 2 aoes were changed a little. Making both powers do kd would be my personal preference, but since some people like kb, they probably wouldn't want to have to slot for kb to get it back. The other suggestion would be to turn one of them into a smaller chance kd power and the other a really high chance (always?) kb power so you could have actually have an aoe positioning power instead of an aoe scatter power. By making one a lower chance I think it would even out by giving the other a higher chance balance wise, but idk.
In general (from what I've seen/experienced), people don't really mind single target kb powers, it's the random aoe kb that makes people upset. That's why I personally really like /energy for dominators, but have very little interest in playing it on anything else. To be honest though, most human form peacebringers are far more annoying to me than energy blast on any AT ever considered being......and it's really only because of one power.
Darn it yall made me roll an ENG/ENG blaster. FUN!!!!!!!!!
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I've got a better idea. Since I don't want to devote enhancement slots to knockback IOs just to keep the knockback that I have now, why not suggest that the developers create negative knockback IOs for people who don't like KB. Then the burden of slotting them falls upon those who don't like the way the set works now.|
Originally Posted by Meruru
In my opinion, energy would be much more enjoyable if the 2 aoes were changed a little. Making both powers do kd would be my personal preference, but since some people like kb, they probably wouldn't want to have to slot for kb to get it back. The other suggestion would be to turn one of them into a smaller chance kd power and the other a really high chance (always?) kb power so you could have actually have an aoe positioning power instead of an aoe scatter power. By making one a lower chance I think it would even out by giving the other a higher chance balance wise, but idk.
In general (from what I've seen/experienced), people don't really mind single target kb powers, it's the random aoe kb that makes people upset. That's why I personally really like /energy for dominators, but have very little interest in playing it on anything else. To be honest though, most human form peacebringers are far more annoying to me than energy blast on any AT ever considered being......and it's really only because of one power. |
And reducing the chance of knockback diminishes the mitigation and survivability of the power set.
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i recall reading sometime ago that the Devs had tinkered with creating a KB reduction effect/IO. It apparently caused all sorts of issues and did not reliably reduce KB effects.|
Originally Posted by Afterimage
I've got a better idea. Since I don't want to devote enhancement slots to knockback IOs just to keep the knockback that I have now, why not suggest that the developers create negative knockback IOs for people who don't like KB. Then the burden of slotting them falls upon those who don't like the way the set works now.
And reducing the chance of knockback diminishes the mitigation and survivability of the power set. |
Without either recoding every KB power to be able to suppress/reduce its own knockback when a trigger (such as a deactivation IO) is present or rewriting some game systems it is probably not an option. Of course the tech used in Dual Pistols and Kinetic Melee obviously means it's now possible to make power effects that can be turned on and off, but the question is whether the Devs consider the resources necessary to do it worth the end result.
Personally i don't think it is worth it. It's not like Energy Blast's KB is something that catches you by surprise after 20 levels, or that there's a lack of similar sets without KB.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Nor could we. Even at the maximum value for KB to function as KD (0.74 or 0.75, forget which), the absolute strongest KB one could generate with a KD baseline would only be mag 2. And that's redlining the KB enhancement value. Not only is it not worth the effort in regard to the slots spent, it's not worth the effort in regard to the effect. One short butt scoot does not satisfying KB make.
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Originally Posted by Meruru
Making both powers do kd would be my personal preference, but since some people like kb, they probably wouldn't want to have to slot for kb to get it back.
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Not all power sets are for all players. Energy Blast is OK as it stands. It certainly does not stand out as direly needing dev attention. I would never ever play the set in a thousand years. I tend to avoid teaming with Energy Blast users as well, because more than any other power set in the game, they tend to interfere with my enjoyment. That's my choice. Playing Energy Blast was theirs. The set is not broken, it doesn't need fixed. The set is, however, rather specialized. Much as the lack of a pet does not break Mind Control, so does the presence of knockback not break Energy Blast.|
Originally Posted by Redd Rumm
Wow!! my feelings are hurt lol . why do i have to be all kinds of idiots just cuz i want a damage buff( im looking at you memphis bill ! ) i am not complaining i am just saying. I complain about the nerfs to my brute ! if you want to be Mr. KB i dont kill nothing on your teams go right ahead
but dont rip someone a new one . just for posting something u dont agree with! I dont play energy blast but I would like to . I am not mad or upset or anything I know full well how to play an how to handle kb on a team . ( I have a mind /energy dom ) I'm just starting a frendly topic no malice intended. You dont gotta rage quote me . " GRRRRRRRR!!you dont like energy blast %$&# you stop playing the game an go die redd rumm !!!!!! I Hate you !!!!" lol I take into acount all the replies to my post an im hopeing it will change my op so i can go ahead with the concept toon i want to make like i said i rarely see any new toons with energy blast all the ones i know are vets " i know at the start of this game you had more ranged choices than energy but in this game alting is what we do, so you 50 a fire blaster ,you 50 your ice you 50 a sonic ect... so im sorry if i made some one mad an thank you all who had a positive arguement for me ,very good arguements it does make me want to take a second look at the set ( damage buff wont hurt tho ) |
I agree that it sucks that the most generic of blast sets has the most situational of secondary effects, though. WTB Light Blast or something, which looks like Energy Blast (ie, lacks the specific theme animations of Dark Blast and Radiation Blast) but doesn't knockback. Until then, I'll just play something else.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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There is a solution that would make both sides happy and wouldn't require anyone to slot a special enhancers to keep or remove KB.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Of course the tech used in Dual Pistols and Kinetic Melee obviously means it's now possible to make power effects that can be turned on and off, but the question is whether the Devs consider the resources necessary to do it worth the end result.
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THE SOLUTION
- Everyone one gets a new power called "Knockback".
- Knockback is a no-cost toggle which cannot be detoggled by mez (like most self buffs)
- This power would flag the character as Knockback TRUE! If this power is not on a character is set to Knockback FALSE.
- All powers that currently can slot KB sets or enhancers would be changed to have two effects: 1) .67 KB which would ignore enhancers and buffs/debuffs; 2) whatever level of KB the power had or the developers wish for the power to have. (e.g. if a power had 3.2 KB before this change, it would be given that much after the change) This KB effect would be affected by buffs and enhancers.
- The second KB effect would only activate where a character's Knockback Flag is set to TRUE!
WHAT THIS WOULD DO
OK take your standard energy blaster. This blaster logs in and right now his Knockback power is not toggled. All of KB powers now do Knockdown. Even if he has 234% of KB slotted, his powers would still do only Knockdown. Then the blaster turns on the Knockback toggle. Now the character's Knockback effects are turned on and all his powers do KB.
Melees who sets had their KB powers reduced to KD long ago could have those KB powers returned because the player could choose to use KB or not.
It's up to the devs whether they want to go through the coding work to do this. I have strong reason to believe that this solution would work, but it would require coding. I also believe that the devs wouldn't do it because KB is used as a detrimental balance on some powers like Repulsing Torrent.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Does this sound like a totally easy thing to implement that would massively improve the game for a large enough segment of the game to be worth the time and effort involved in creating it?
Giving players the means to change knockback to knockdown changes nothing.
Players who do not like to use knockback themselves simply pick another powerset now and happily play the game. Exceptions are people who want the developers to rewrite the game to cater to their personal preferences, and such people are never satisfied.
Players who do not like other people enjoying their knockback powers will still be unhappy that other people have the choice of using knockback instead of knockdown. Such people will insist that other players change their choice to knockdown. This will lead to the same kind of friction that we see now, just shifted to a slightly different argument.
So what is solved by making the effort of coding in the choice?
Not a bad idea, Geko.
I'd flip it to be a "controlled Knockback" toggle that limits you to KD, rather than new players having to hunt down a button to experience a staple of the superhero genre, but thats just details.
Certain powers (Repel, Tornado & Bonfire definitely, Hand Clap maybe?) would also have to be flaggged as not affected by this new code - they have to do Knockback rather than knockdown to be balanced.
I can foresee bugs slipping through - Blaster Bonfire in the epics being overlooked or something like that. And these often lead to an extra maintenance where me and other Aussies get locked out for an evening.
It does sound like a lot of work though, especially with all those non-knockback sets around. Players can pretty much already choose if they want to avoid knockback on their own powers by not choosing Energy Blast/MA/Kheldians/Storm.
I personally think the only set that really deserves the ability to cancel its own knockback is Energy Blast. I would just give it the Dual Pistols treatment (the "other" DPS knockback set that nobody ever thinks of as such because it already has the ability to turn it off).
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And Peacebringers. But I would also give this to melees. Some people might enjoy having KB added back to powers like Headsplitter.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I personally think the only set that really deserves the ability to cancel its own knockback is Energy Blast. I would just give it the Dual Pistols treatment (the "other" DPS knockback set that nobody ever thinks of as such because it already has the ability to turn it off).
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
/bind key "target_enemy_near$$follow"
Done. You stick to everything you target. Blast away, Energy guys. Blast away. =)
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I'm fairly indifferent as to whether the toggle would turn KB on or off, but it seems weird to have a power that you turn on to turn an effect off.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Not a bad idea, Geko.
I'd flip it to be a "controlled Knockback" toggle that limits you to KD, rather than new players having to hunt down a button to experience a staple of the superhero genre, but thats just details. |
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| It does sound like a lot of work though, especially with all those non-knockback sets around. Players can pretty much already choose if they want to avoid knockback on their own powers by not choosing Energy Blast/MA/Kheldians/Storm. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Yes, most certainly.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Does this sound like a totally easy thing to implement that would massively improve the game for a large enough segment of the game to be worth the time and effort involved in creating it?
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I would love it of this game had the ability for me to choose knockback or knockdown.
Then maybe I would pick powers like Lightning Clap or ThunderClap. Maybe I would take Thunderstrike more often. Maybe I would actually play my PB more.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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You have a unique definition of the word 'easy.'
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Yes, most certainly.
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No, not really. The ability to do this is already in game. The mechanic that would allow this has already been deployed in a context outside of its original creation (Dual Pistols).|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
You have a unique definition of the word 'easy.'
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It's not a question of "can they do this?" It's a question of will. The devs don't have the will. Probably because of certain people who would complain about others being given more choices. But there you go.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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There is a fair bit of man-hours required to go through and recode that many powers. It's not as simple to do as you seem to think. From what i know of previous changes to powers it cannot be done as an automated script with good results. So there's two hurdles to implementing this change.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
No, not really. The ability to do this is already in game. The mechanic that would allow this has already been deployed in a context outside of its original creation (Dual Pistols).
It's not a question of "can they do this?" It's a question of will. The devs don't have the will. Probably because of certain people who would complain about others being given more choices. But there you go. |
On the plus side at least it's now possible. Which is still not the same thing as worth the cost.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I agree the time it takes to manually add these effects to each power is time consuming. But difficult? I can't agree with that.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
There is a fair bit of man-hours required to go through and recode that many powers. It's not as simple to do as you seem to think. From what i know of previous changes to powers it cannot be done as an automated script with good results. So there's two hurdles to implementing this change.
On the plus side at least it's now possible. Which is still not the same thing as worth the cost. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Implementing a change like this is not difficult in terms of how to do it. Like you say, the mechanism is already there in Dual Pistols.
Its difficult in terms of the number of small details that need attention, and the resultant testing that has to accompany it. All of which is man-hours and money on someone's budget sheet.
On top of that, someone senior like Castle has to sit down and decide which powers are exempt. Bonfire is exempt. (I think its specially coded to never do knockdown, after some exploit involving +6 con KB resistant enemies...)
Energy Blast wouldn't be exempt.
What about Handclap and Lightning Clap? Are they balanced around KB? If the become Knockdown is there any combo that can exploit this to an unintended degree (eg SS/Fire Tankers? Probably not, but I'm not going through all combos here...)
Don't forget epics and patron pools. I bet something would slip through and need further attention later.
So it may be easy, but its not cheap. And I don't know if KB is that big a problem in the dev's eyes that it needs this much attention.
My 5-year-old Energy/Energy blaster would like to dispute that Energy doesn't do enough damage. I've specced him to out-DPS your common-or-garden fire blaster without even trying to do so.
Aim+Build Up+Energy Torrent+Explosive Blast is UNGODLY against large spawns, and anything that didn't get killed in the attack is probably on its back.
Aim+Build Up+Sniper Blast+Total Focus is far, far worse against single targets.
Power Push as an OMGGETAWAYFROMME! power.
Power Blast can do almost as much damage as Power Burst.
Not much beats *run up to spawn, Aim, Build Up, Energy Torrent, Explosive Blast, Power Burst on the sole surviving enemy... rinse and repeat ad infinitum* and having your teammates wonder why nothing stays on its feet for long. The answer? Knockback or Defeated.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.