Energy : Buff needed

It's only a problem in the eyes of certain players who think they should never have to move once they pick a spot and on those who've become so addicted to AoE that they can no longer handle scatter.

More evidence of the extreme positions and unreasonableness of the pro-KB crowd. No one questions people when they say the want to have their energy blasts pink to go along with their kawaii Hello Kitty themed costume, but somehow it's considered problematic to want to avoid scatter which has patent deleterious effects.

The facts are these: KB is a problem in this game because so much of the rest of the game wasn't designed with KB in mind. As you say, AoE is effective and it is deteriorated by excessive scatter. Why is someone wrong for wanting to use their powers to the maximum? Isn't that the essential argument of the pro-KB crowd? Why do you wish to deny to others that which you claim as a right?

Other problems that KB causes is that melees in this game often have no ranged potential. You knock an NPC away from them you can cause them to lose the effects of buffing (RttC, Invincibility, AAO) and you force them to either chase the mob (which could interfere with the above powers) or wait for that mob to return. Either way disrupting their effectiveness for the marginal benefit that KB provides. Many of the pro-KB crowd ignore these issues or worse, like this poster try to make the victim the villain.

KB is a comic book staple. In a game that didn't have the legacy design problems this game has it would be no problem to knock mobs all over creation. AoE steamrolling is problematic because it devolves the game and lowers risk. It is also problematic in my opinion that most melee characters don't have some ability to retaliate at range until very high levels. IMO, that's broken and it exacerbates this issue.

But I don't see either group as the villain. I understand that people who enjoy KB. I even enjoy it from time to time. I also understand people who do not like KB. Accommodating both groups is possible and IMO a much better use of developer time than trivia like power customization.

And makes more problems than it is worth. You would have people complaining for players to turn off their KB and they won't.

You would STILL have posts about players that don't want KB and want it removed so that they don't run into players that won't turn off their KB.

And KD is overpowered in that it doesn't move the mobs out of the way of attacks. So now you have a mob control in place and can still use AOE damage without moving. Plus players could possibly never learn how to use KB correctly because they were told to turn it off when they started either the game or a new toon with KB powers for the first time.

Always glad to know the devs failed to make that -KB enhancement they mentioned. Hope to never see that in the game.

I would make it a knock down toggle as well, since that is a change being made to the power. I would also think it would be a bit less work. I don't think it should be as complicated as you are saying though. It should only effect blaster/kheld primaries. That limits the amount of powers that need changing, and works like the toggles in DP.



No it is not, it is about limiting players. Scatter weakens groups by lowering damage, and if uncontrolled can lead to trouble. Saying other shouldn't be as lazy and deal with it, is like saying energy blasters should not blast more then once every 5-10 seconds. Either way effects the fun of others.

If you don't like the KB in Energy Blast, or Peacebringers, pick another powerset or archetype.

If you don't like grouping with people who use these powers, group with someone else.

Energy Blast has worked like it does for the last 6 years. There is no need to change it, there are other options. Changing an existing powerset should only happen if there is a clear imbalance that needs to be corrected. That isn't present here.

Bad or inexperienced players will be bad or inexperienced with any powerset or archetype.

And in any group game, people affect the fun of other people. That isn't an unfortunate side effect, it is inherent in any social activity. There is nothing special about knockback. You have to find people to play with who are compatible with you.

Not likely. What's more likely to happen is that once people can control KB, team leaders will feel much more empowered. Right now, if KB was causing problems, I wouldn't blame the player. It's not their fault. I don't expect people to waste the time learning how to control something that's supposed to be helping them. But after this, I can now ask them to remove the effect for the good of the team.

What is likely is that some pro-KB folks will come to the boards and complain that teams won't let them use KB.

Agreed, so do you acknowledge then that KB is actually a detriment? Because taking what you said to its logical conclusion, this explains why Energy Blast, which is a perfectly fine set otherwise, doesn't have anywhere near the popularity of a set like Fire Blast.

IF a player chooses not to learn how to use KB, why is that a problem? I honestly don't understand. Are you saying that sets like Energy Blast are balanced around having to learn to use a potentially problematic secondary effect? Because if so, Energy Blast needs something to compensate it for being saddled with KB, no?

This has been happening for years already. It's why I've been on groups who pass by on Peacebringers and hardly ever see Energy Blasters at all. Perhaps that's all we can expect at this point.

But there is another way, that doesn't include changing anyone's playstyle. If the devs have the vision to embrace it.

What I find interesting about this is the way that I, at least, have learned to "use KB correctly" is to rarely use it at all. The sole exception to that is on powers where KB is tied to DPS and therefor unavoidable. Being able to toggle it on and off at will would at least let me "use it correctly" by flinging stuff when I actually mean to.


You seem to be arguing that knockback is actually penalty.

If you give the opposition an inch...

Honestly, I'm not opposed to more choices as a pro-KB player. But how often do you think that choice will actually be a choice? Currently, if KB is present, those anti-KB just have to deal, quit/kick or communicate. If we get the choice of turning KB off, that'll probably change to order team to turn off KB and quit/kick. So this 'option', more often than not, won't be an option and it takes away the need to communicate in a multi-player online game.

Yay for progress...

This is false. And it *is* false because it was stated to be fact. As an opinion, I simply disagree.

Hard to sympathize with a victim that is also reaping the benefits of the mitigation that KB provides. Sure, dismiss the fact that an enemy KBed doesn't do damage and further doesn't do as much damage until they can run back to the melee and take another swing. Oh no, it's the KB that is the villain!

And when the extra mitigation is waved around, it's countered with the 'but the extra mitigation isn't always needed' to which I say 'then who gives a flip if they're knocked out of a buff aura range!? you don't need the extra mitigation that little extra percent gives anyway!'

A better way to accommodate both sides? Make more enemies that are resistant to KB (could definitely use more 'Always Flying' foes). So those that don't want to worry about it can target those. Could also make foes that are extra vulnerable when KB (somehow) so KB on those are welcome. This expands the game rather than catering to one style of play (the AoE herders which don't need anymore help than they already have).

I've learned to use KB in a multitude of ways. One particularly easy way to use damaging KB attacks is to simply wait. You don't have to abstain from using it completely, just wait for some of the other AoEs go off (you have to play with your team a few spawns to get how long you should wait), then just unleash the AoEs so that a good portion of the spawn will be defeated. It may have the side-effect of pushing still-alive foes closer as there will be gaps where defeated foes lie now. Even if it does scatter, most of the spawn is gone and everyone is switching to ST cleanup.

In the meantime, target your one target.


I'd argue that poster didn't know what they were talking about or simply didn't clarify their argument.

However the problem still remains that a Defender is not going to kill the spawn, he or she is mostly going to fling them. Energy Blast might skate by on a Blaster, but on a Defender, the lack of control and the tying of DPS to knockback makes the set very suspect to me. It is mainly why I feel Energy Blast should have the toggle. Dual Pistols does, and I use that a lot to toggle knockback on and off when a particular shot should or shouldn't knock something back. I feel like the "masters" of knockback using Energy Blast should probably have the same advantage.

For most other sets I don't really feel the same way, with Khelds a possible exception. With other sets I kind of feel like the knockback portion is already mostly manageable. Plus I'd like for Energy Blast to have an ability that is (at least mostly) unique, since knockback can be so redundant, especially without a hard mezz anywhere in the set.

Uh. Ok I don't think there's really any way for me to continue that part of conversation, because this sits totally and completely outside of my experience.

This is true if, and only if, one operates under the presumption that the player(s) using KB cannot or will not defeat the enemies in question. In order to prove that, you need to conclusively prove that attacks with KB are dealing less damage than all similar attacks, or that all KB users are jackasses or idiots.

I already know that you can't, but if you'd like to try, go for it.

And many of the anti-KB crowd ignore the reality of the situation, that attacks with KB deal damage, that players using KB are doing so in addition to dealing damage, not in lieu of dealing damage.

We, the people who enthusiastically enjoy KB, are no less effective or intelligent than the people who determinedly despise KB. We're not idiots who forget that we're in combat 0.3s after we fire off an AoE with KB, nor are we too weak or ineffective to finish what we start. If anything, I would portray us as more effective in combat because we enjoy what we're doing so much that we pursue targets more aggressively than most other players. When we send everything skidding across the floor, out of range of your PBAoE aura, we don't just stop and wait for them to get up, we keep going, slamming them again and again and again until there's nothing left, so in the end, what damn difference does it make if you don't have them in melee range? Dead is dead, by my hand or yours. Safe is safe, by my KB or your RttC.

The "KB problem" is not KB or its use, it's ego and a false sense of ownership. "Stop knocking MY mobs around, you jerk!" "That was MY kill!" "How am I supposed to play when MY target isn't standing right in front of me?!" They aren't "yours" (plural, not specifically addressing you, EG), and you (again, plural) aren't the center of the universe. If you can't hit something because it was knocked away, move or find something else to hit. The goal of the team is to defeat enemies. The KB user is just as capable of that as anyone else, alone or in conjunction with you.

And yes, I have played melee characters on teams with heavy KB. I've never complained, nor even thought about complaining, because I'm capable of hitting things just as well when I move 5' or switch targets, and because I'm aware that my actions are no more or less important to the team than the actions of the KB users. Dead is dead, safe is safe, period.

In actuality, it doesn't. The KB in powers meant to deal damage, such as Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast, is low enough to ensure that even with only half of the enemies being knocked back (on average), they're still close enough for similar AoEs and cones to hit. Cone and AoE powers with high magnitude KB, such as Torrent (Dark Blast) are not "chance to", thus ensuring that all enemies (up to the hit roll cap) are knocked back together and to an equal distance. Thus, in a typical combat scenario, the KB user isn't actually scattering spawns to any appreciable degree because all foes still remain in range for or close enough together to be hit by the same or similar AoEs and cones.

The only way to actually scatter spawns in this game, using KB powers, is to deliberately avoid slotting the KB AoEs and cones with Accuracy AND slotting them heavily for KB, thereby ensuring that less than an expected number of foes will be knocked back and that those which are knocked back are sent significantly further than normal. And that kind of slotting isn't indicative of a problem with KB or scatter, it's indicative of a player who is either new or deliberately attempting to cause trouble. Either kind of player can be dealt with far more effectively than asking the developers to redesign KB across the board.

I do. I build all of my characters with a minimum of two PBAoE, cone or AoE attacks. If I can find a third one, I grab it.

My main is a TA/Dark defender. My primary attack sequence is TT/NF/repeat.

My Energy/Energy blaster opens with ET/EB, and when I get to 44, my attack sequence will consist of ET/EB/Repulsion Bomb/ET/EB/next spawn.

My Rad/Energy defender will follow the same tactics as my Energy/Energy blaster, substituting School of Sharks for Repulsion Bomb.

My Fire/TA corruptor, RoF/Fire Breath.

Archery characters, RoA/Fistful/Explosive.

Mind/Fire dominator, Fire Breath/Terrify/Psionic Tornado.

Even my melee characters have at least two AoEs, eventually (some have to wait for APP/PPP accessibility), and I use them as frequently as possible.

If we weren't meant to be capable of decimating entire spawns with AoEs, we wouldn't have AoEs like Rain of Arrows, or combinations of AoEs in the same powerset, like Fire Breath, Fire Ball and Rain of Fire or RoA/Fistful/Explosive or Buckshot/M30/Flamethrower/Ignite, or combinations of AoEs across powersets, like OSA, Rain of Fire, Fire Breath and Fire Ball, or AoEs in the APPs/PPPs available to ATs with access to multiple powersets with two or more AoEs already.

The original design goal was to make every character capable of facing three +0 foes at once, and winning. Some envisioned builds provided the means to achieve that goal through strong single-target attacks and high personal mitigation, others through a combination of weak single-target attacks coupled with middling AoEs and personal mitigation, and some through heavy usage of AoE with no personal mitigation. The target may have shifted from +0 foes to +3 foes, but the basic goal remains the same, pit players against multiple enemies, and the tools used to achieve that goal have only gotten better. We have more, and stronger, AoEs now than we did at launch, we have things like damage procs which we can slot in AoEs to make them even more devastating, we have options like Hasten, teammates with +Recharge buffs, base buffs and IO set bonuses to make those AoEs recharge more quickly...

AoEing constantly is how the game is supposed to be played, if you want to play it that way. That's all there is to it, it's a choice, and it's a choice which the developers have fully empowered and supported from day one. Short of having a guaranteed eight person team, AoEing constantly, or as frequently as your build will support, is the fastest, most efficient means of leveling in this game. For the same endurance and time that you'd spend defeating three enemies, you can defeat ten or more.

The only real threat to an AoE-heavy character is foes which don't drop when the AoE action is finished, and that's why we have single-target attacks, to assist them in joining their companions on the floor. Yes, even blasters. Having someone around to Taunt foes off of your blaster helps, but there are enough damage mitigation tools available to everyone, including blasters, to do quite well without a babysitter.

KB can't be guaranteed in every attack because when it occurs, it's 100% damage mitigation. Enemies on their backs deal zero damage. The KB "chance to" in Energy Blast is set to percentages in each attack based on an expectation of how much damage they should be mitigating in comparison to similar sets with different mitigatory effects.

Dark Blast, for instance, imposes 9.375% -ToHit per attack when used by defenders. With a minimum hit rate of 5%, this means a single Dark Blast attack reduces an enemy's likelihood of hitting you by (very) roughly 20%. Tagging ten enemies with the two cones in Dark Blast increases your survivability by (again, very) roughly 40%. If you could guarantee KB with Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast, you'd effectively mitigate 100% of incoming damage, 100% of the time, while still dealing damage comparable to or greater than the cones in Dark Blast. The same logic applies to the single-target attacks. Energy Blast has to have a lower than 100% success rate for KB to keep it in parity with the other blast sets in regard to damage mitigation. It can't be perfectly reliable or reproducible, or it becomes grossly overpowered in relation to the performance of every other blast set in the game.

If the developers were to increase the KB chance to 100% in some or all of the attacks, they would also have to increase the recharge time or endurance cost enormously (re: Repulsion Bomb), or reduce the damage drastically (re: Power Push) to balance the set appropriately. We can't have perfect 100% damage mitigation and good, fast damage output, there has to be some risk and some balance. They haven't actively tried to prevent us from building tankmages since IOs were added to the game, but they aren't going to just give them to us, either.

Agreed. It's a blue moon topic. It comes up once in a while, the most vocal of us jump in to argue, then it dies down. Just like "healers", "SB PLZ", "kicked for not having X", "X is overpowered", "X is underpowered" and "Stamina is required" threads. None of it has ever been shown to represent anything more than a few peoples' opinions or completely uncorroborated and ultimately irrelevant stories, and none of it really matters. We do it anyway because it's the debate itself that's enjoyable, regardless of what we're debating.

The defender is no less capable or defeating a spawn than anyone else. Perhaps not as quickly, but that's the trade-off for having the tools to deal with two or more spawns at the same time, as opposed to being forced to deal with one enemy or spawn at once.

Interesting fact: a solo defender with attacks slotted at 95% +Damage deals exactly the same damage as a blaster (within a thousandth of a point, anyway), with the same attacks slotted identically, with only 50% -Res. The blaster does, obviously, have the higher damage cap and more effective self-affecting damage buffs, but that doesn't make the defender less capable or efficient in any way other than "by comparison to the blaster's maximum output". Which really... doesn't matter. The defender can still do the same job, it just does it differently.

Actually I do it for two reasons.

1) I think the change I want (a KB toggle in Energy Blast) would make the game better.
2) Such a feature has already been tested in another set (Dual Pistols) and shown to work.

Great. So now we can get the people who can't get that defenders can do more than heal also telling anyone with Energy blast how to play.

"Just stand there and heal! I don't care that you are Force Fields, you should heal! If I see you blast again, I'm kicking you! Heal!"
"Turn off your KB!"

No.

And removing the effect would NOT be for "the good of the team."

Besides, where do we stop this? Do we now nerf (as that's what it would be) Illusion as well? Robots MMs? How about removing the repel from Hurricane completely, as that can scatter mobs? Oh, and lower the mag on it on ice patch, as it can fling some mobs away (most notably Clockwork.) How about Force Bolt - it's not really a damage power, it's entire raison d'etre is to knock things back, and it would look damn silly to have this big bolt hit and just kind of "wiff" someone to the ground. (Don't forget to do it to everyone with the Nemesis Staff, too.) Psychic Thrust? Sorry, being a Tier1 secondary on my /MM blasters, I WANT that knocking things back, not down, so they're not in melee range if I'm held/immob'd.

Just how far down this path do you want to go? How many sets do you want to nerf so YOU don't have to "deal with" knockback?

See my Guides and Tutorials

DPS, for the most part, is in regards to single targets. Because once a group of foes is dead, leaving only the couple of hard targets that may be spread out, wasting endurance on AoEs is more often than not, a waste.

AoEs, for my playstyle, is primarily for burst attacking.



And my Archery/Psi blaster alternates BU+RoA and Aim+FistoArrows>Psychic Scream or Drain Psych > PsiShockwave depending on the team make-up.

My Stone/Shield brute throws the hammer down with opening SC from a distance then SchooloSharks>Bile Spray> (when he's high enough level) Arctic Breath.

But guess what? I'm not going to waste the endurance (or recharge) of those moderately recharging attacks on 1-3 foes when I could be using Flaming Arrow, Heavy Mallet/Seismic Smash to take out one quickly while the team removes the other two. I guess I overstepped my bounds saying 'no one' wastes their AoEs but I find it menial to save those for situations they really matter (especially on teams if you've got more than just yourself to rely on attacking).

No one said we weren't meant to decimate entire spawns with AoEs. I said, we weren't meant to spam AoEs all the time regardless of situation.

Honestly, you're not helping our case of keeping KB if you're just going to back AoE spamming of any power all the time because that includes KB powers. I'd hate it if people spammed Gale 'just because it's an AoE'.

Technically, the way the game is *suppose* to be played is communicating with your fellow teammembers to fully utilize each of your strengths or covering over each weakness. You're suppose to be coordinating how AoEs are spread, what each of you plan to do and support eachother with the knowledge of what the enemy may throw at you. KB wouldn't be an issue if people communicated.

But support mindless blowing up of mobs. The game is already quite easy for vets anyway, what's a little more dictatorship on the leader's part going to hurt, huh? So when I play my tankers, *I* will tell you when to use all those AoEs you want to so mindlessly spam, eh?

Yes, it would. No offense, but I question the tactical skill of anyone who prefers Kheldians to SoA.

How is a choice a nerf? Because people won't feel bad anymore for having to accommodate your playchoices?

You're hysterical. I offer a choice. You may choose to equate that with a nerf if you wish, but I shall not waste time countering an argument stated in false terms.