Energy : Buff needed

I'm not anti-KB. I'm pro-choice. Similar to the more famous version of pro-choice, I think that choice gives the sets that revolve around KB more options other than "Don't do it."

And like the more famous "pro-" group, many of you folks tend to demonize the opposition and make them out to be evil. I find both "pro-" groups to be counter-productive more times than not.

Actually, it will be a choice much more than you think. What I think most likely is that teams will be fine with KB most of the time. There are some encounters where KB will be more helpful than others and some where it will be downright dangerous. With a toggle, the player can dial it down and back at will.

No, it's a fact. That KB interferes with a large number of powers is a fact. It's a verifiable statement. You knock something out of AAO aura, you have lowered the damage of the shield user in question. That's not my opinion.

What is my opinion, but it's more of an inference based on the above fact, is that situations like this, cause the general lack of popularity for KB heavy sets.

But what if I need the extra to-hit that Invincibility and Soul Drain (I can't tell you how many times, this has happened to my brute) provides. Or the damage that Against All Odds or Soul Drain provides. What if the mob could have been dead (100% mitigation) if it weren't knocked out of my Lightning Rod or Shield Charge or Quills or Ice Storm, etc.

That really would be a nerf to KB users.

As to the last underlined. This is what I'm talking about. You're stating here in no uncertain terms that the people who enjoy nuking spawns don't matter.

Well, maybe the developers thought that underlined one was a bit more important.

And I question the sanity of anyone who says the SOA have a better storyline for an Epic using the reasoning that it basically *doesn't exist.*
You just don't want to admit that that's heading down a very *bad* path. Everything I've mentioned has come up as "problems" with those powers, or they're just as relevant as they *are* knockback powers.

Or do you just want to nerf specific sets? Where's the fairness there?

Robots do knockback with their powers. I've sent enemies flying plenty of times.
Illusionists do knockback - and *can't* control it, past trying to position a pet 0 and people complain. Going to nerf them as well?
Force bolt does knockback. Same question. Is it on your nerf block?
Hurricane (right in there with Gale) does Repel, and *does* scatter mobs if not used properly... you know, like KB does, and immobs won't counter it. That sounds like it should be even higher up on your nerf list.

Yes, I am against nerfing powers for people who don't want to learn how to work with them. People have to learn how to use and direct knockback through targeting and direction, just like they have to learn not to use an AOE immob (generally) on Ice Slick, or put MM pets in bodyguard, or any of the numerous other little things anyone who pays the *slightest* attention should be able to pick up.

No, Knockdown is *not* as good of an option. It *is* a nerf. Knock something down, it's still right where you left it and getting back up to attack sooner. Knock*back* gives you extra time, and forces the enemy to attack from range or spend even more time getting back into melee (generally meaning you're safer from their more damaging attacks.)

Oh, and as for your other post:
No, it is not. *Improper use of KB,* yes. *KB without paying attention to what you're doing,* sure. But KB interferes? No. Believe it or not, Geko, you can knock enemies *into* tank/brute auras, placed damage patches, etc. I do it *all the time.* It's not difficult to figure out.

Your fact, in other words, isn't one.

Inv/Soul Drain/quills? Aim at the *near* side of the mob. Mob is KB'd to the other side of the tank/brute, at worst. No loss to you.
LR/SC? Are you opening or closing with it? Opening, wait for the tank/brute/scrapper to charge in. Pick target on near side. Start firing. Closing, who's to say MY damage *won't* kill them?
Ice storm - See first statement. Find mob trying to get out from near side of storm, fire so they're knocked back into it.

Wow, look at that, your very situations and... no loss on your part. Unless you'd like to complain that my Kheld's damage killed a mob you could have used Soul Drain on? Or that my killing that mob lowered your defenses?

See my Guides and Tutorials

Now replace whatever power you were using in that situation with any power in Fire Blast. Would you have had to do anything other than fire it off? KB powers need to be planned around, because they INTERFERE with other powers that rely on the mobs location.

Can that be used to your benefit, sure at times. That doesn't invalidate the general case. These are all exceptions that prove the rule.

Think of it in math terms. The Kheldian story arcs are boring piles of repetitive council mashing. I.e. they are a net negative. The SoA arcs are at least in the positive territory if only just.

How do you see being able, but not forced to, turn off KB as a nerf?

Oh please.

If the pro group is demonizing the opposition, it's only because they're trying to put themselves up as victims.

But I'll one up your 'pro-choice' position with the 'pro-experience' position. While I've never said I was intrinsically against the option of turning off KB, I am against the direction it pushes the game toward. More mindless, tactic-less, communication-less, AoE steamrolling. Rather than trying to learn the variety of ways to exploit KB (or worse, a newbie being deprived the chance to learn because of pushy teammates), we're just going the route of simplifying an already simplistic game. Simple is nice but simple isn't always best.

No, you're just blind to alternative options. If 'most likely teams will be fine with KB' then there is no need for a toggle to nullify the effect. If KB isn't your thing and you're unwilling to use it, then use another set. Just like if I'm unwilling to having zero mitigating effects from Fire Blast, I'll choose another set. I'm not going to force a suggestion for more mitigation right out into the set.

If you were *really* pro-choice, you would be open to more than just a toggle to suppress the effect. You're not pro-choice, you're just being selfish.

Oh don't even pull AAOs out. I play SD on every AT and am no more hindered by some out-of-range foes. Hell, my MA/SD *uses* KB to stay alive. And like a couple of mobs not in the aura will make a huge difference. How many points of damage on a good tier 9 does 7-15% dmg make?


But what if...but what if...


They are just that. 'If's.

I can easily counter with 'What if I just knock foes *into* range of those effects?' Then where does that leave our arguments? Nowhere, that's where.

But I doubt someone so fixated on getting what they want and to hell with the consequences would care or acknowledge that. I won't even bother going on the 'If you're on a team, it's not all about you' tangent.

No, it's called variety. There's already foes that resist KB. It's not a nerf to KB, it just means the effect has its opposition. Same with foes that resist mez or with melee-ranged debuffs.

Lol, you really must be selfish. No one said people who nuke lots of stuff don't matter. As is, that seems to be the only stance that matters here. If something has the possibility to interfere with your spawn nuking, it must be supressed (oh, excuse me...the 'choice' to be suppressed which will ultimately be enforced by a majority of teams) and if we don't agree then apparently we don't think you people matter? Wow.

It's bad enough people think spawns must revolve around *their* auras and *their* AoEs, that they're the stars of the show. But now they're victimizing themselves if they don't get their way.

Honestly, if we got a toggle to suppress KB tomorrow, I wouldn't really care. It's not affecting my play because I won't bother using it. But the first incident where a Dark Melee/SD Brute or some such sees so much as 1 foe fly then requests I turn off my KB and I have to reply 'no'? Then yeah, it's affecting me.

Not even bothering at this point. Are you going to argue, next, that Ice based powers need to be nerfed because they interfere with Brute fury generation? (They slow down enemy recharge, making them attack the brute less.) Or that controllers and dominators overall need to have a "no-hold" toggle option for the same reason?

You refuse to see knockback as anything but interference. Even with your "I'm not anti-KB" bit, sorry, but you are acting like it. *Poorly used* KB can be bad, yes, just like poorly-placed AOE immobs (say, on an ice patch.) KB in and of itself, no. And if *A* mob gets knocked out of your precious auras, I have not just made your tank as vulnerable as a -10 AFK squishy.

"What about fire blast?" Well, heavy AOEs, according to some, can strip aggro completely from a tank/brute. Sounds like it's interfering even more in that case. And if your argument is "That doesn't always happen," well, stop telling me my argument (which is quite bluntly the same thing) is "invalid" in some fashion.

I think Leo summed it up - and part of my arguing is from being put in a very similar position with Defenders (and Controllers) and being told to "heal" (or getting kicked when, say, my TA showed up, or I *dared* actually attack something.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

People can kick KB users now. Providing a choice doesn't really change the status quo.

As for the rest, I do think we've argued the point enough. I don't think the devs will do anything to change it, but I thought that about MoG too, so I thought I would provide the idea.

Yes it does, it gives them ammo to say "You can turn it off so do so!", then kick them from the team. I see an en/en blast, I know he has KB. Or new players will come and they will be told some far out line that "KB is not popular so you better not use it." and go on believing that KB is a problem since that is how they have played since they started.

This on/off business will have more issues then what it solves.

Not in any fashion is it a detriment. IME, the teams that kick KBers are the min/maxers of XP and speed runs. They don't want there precious time wasted chasing a mob. Fire has more damage and DoT, thus will be more efficient for the speedsters.

I have done an all storm ITF and completed it in roughly the same time as a regular run for the ITF. KB wasn't a detriment like you think it is.

That would depend on how much damage the AoE does, wouldn't it. If and when an AoE has the potential to deal damage equal to or greater than a number of single-target attacks which use a comparable amount of endurance, then the AoE is the superior choice.

If you have a heavy hitter for taking down boss class or higher critters, use it. But if you've also got AoEs that deal sufficient damage to warrant the endurance expenditure, use them too. The only wasted endurance is endurance spent on corpse shots, and even that endurance can be well spent if you're using AoEs and still have other targets up.

AoEs recharge. And as long as they hit something, they matter just as much now as they will eight seconds from now. Just like inspirations, it's okay to use them frequently, there's always more just around the corner.

I'd hate to see someone letting a team wipe occur because they didn't want to spam Gale "because it's wasteful".

I'd also hate to see someone let Gale sit in their tray, unused and ignored, if they had it slotted with three damage procs. 3 * 71.75 = spam that sucker.

...

Technically, the enemies in this game don't have enough HP to require tactical coordination or communication, until you reach EB class and higher, and technically, there are only a handful of instances in which EB class and higher critters are thrown at us in numbers greater than one, and technically, nearly every EB class and higher critter has either KB protection through AV Resistance or is affected by the purple patch to a sufficient degree to ensure that even high mag KB isn't a notable problem, so technically, no communication is required for anything beyond gathering a team.

This isn't World of Walkcraft. We don't need five players beating on one enemy for ten minutes, coordinating efforts to ensure that we're following the scripted routine for the particular foe in question.

Reality check. That leader is basically saying that if I don't want to play his way... then I'll be given leave to not play his way and not have to listen to the whining, childish attitude and pointless demands. Do it his way, or play on a team that's just as easy to find/put together, just as fast and far, far more enjoyable and relaxed.

Teams aren't diamond encrusted platinum. Leadership in this game is not a rare and highly sought-after commodity. Teams are a dime a dozen, and being the "leader" means nothing more than being the chimp in charge of clicking the mission and selecting Team Task. And that team leader with the chip on his/her shoulder and a hate-on for KB is no more important, special or worthwhile than any other team leader. So, really, who the hell gives a damn if some nobody says you can't play with him/her? There are a hundred thousand other people out there to play with, the enormous majority of whom don't have attitudes and serious control issues.

So spare me the "my way or the highway" crap. It's a team, not a house or job. In all likelihood, it's not even a good team, if the leader is that much of a dick, and being kicked off of that team isn't a shame, it's freedom from incarceration. There's always another team waiting, and in my experience, they're almost never run by these self-styled emperors.

MemphisBill keyed me into what I'm arguing against. It's Defender drama. I truly didn't understand what you folks were talking about before he made that comment about healers. And while I've never understood healer drama either (I spent years arguing against the myth of the kicked non-healer), I understand enough now to know that I need to get out of the way!


So I will flee the field of battle today, you guys win!

What happens when I want Power Thrust, Power Push and Explosive Blast to do KB, but the rest of the powers do KD?

Nothing, because we can't select individual power settings. So instead of getting enemies away from me so I can more easily assess the battlefield and/or line up a shot with Energy Torrent, I just knock them down and have to run around. And instead of giving me several seconds of reprieve, due to the additional time they would've spent in the air due to the KB, I'm only getting a couple of seconds to figure out what the hell's going on and how to deal with it.

Pass on the broken idea which drastically nerfs my survival tools, thanks.

Or maybe they're desperate to retain and expand the player base and willing to try just about anything if they think it will please existing players and bring new ones in.

By the way, shouldn't you be railing against Fitness being changed to an inherent pool? It does remove it as a choice.

For something to be a myth, it has to not exist/not happen.

I can state from personal experience that it has.

See my Guides and Tutorials

No, it doesn't. It adds more choice and flexibility than almost any change we've seen before.

"Many"? How many? I've got five years under my belt, all but a handful of the teams I've joined have been pick-up groups and I've run into exactly the same number of KB haters in the game as I have people who kick others for not having travel powers, not being "healers", etc. That total, to date, is zero.

So how many is "many"? Ten? A hundred? A whole thousand (which would still represent less than 0.01% of the total player population)? Why are you so concerned with the petulant demands of a tiny subset of people who, in actuality, care only for themselves?

KB is entirely a choice now. One can choose to play with KB powers, or not. One can choose to team with KB users, or not.

I don't like your idea either, and I don't play defenders much. I have a total of 3 that made it to 20. I prefer blasters and tanks.

If you want a choice between playing knockback or not, choose between playing an energy blaster or a fire blaster. Choice is present now. Doesn't require coding, doesn't require developer intervention, doesn't upset any apple carts.

If the developers want to give out a choice between knockback or not, within a single power set, they should create a new power set with that choice built in. It wouldn't upset any existing players, since it would be new.

I don't see why it matters or not if Energy Blast or Peacebringers are not as popular as Fire Blast or Warshadess. Can you explain why it is important to have more of them?

Please see: Dual Pistols.

The world didn't end then either.

My 50 DP corr knows that already. Did you have a point?

So you're playing the set with the mechanic that does all of the things you're against? Well it's your $14.95.

So you can park yourself firing away at anything that moves. In the process, you're knocking enemies away from the Tank who's designed to keep mobs as close as possible to keep away from squishier classes. Or the Scrapper/Stalker/Brute who are designed to deal damage IN melee.

It's okay for YOU to make it harder for melee classes to deal damage, but it's a bad thing for you to have to position yourself to work with the team?

No. Thanks.

Yeah, and some recharge very slowly. All of them recharge slower than an equivalent or stronger ST attack because that's how they're balanced. And I don't 'not' use AoEs, I just use stronger ST attacks in the situation where they're meant to be used: vs the few scattered single targets.



No!

No, you do *NOT* spam it. The only time I'd condone spamming Gale is if you've got a wall or corner to push them in. Or maybe occupying a subsection/alternate group of foes. Because if you're spamming whatever the hell just because you want to, you're disregarding if that helps or hinders a teammate. It's just like AoE immobilizes on controllers. If I'm a Tanker trying to get a group away from another group and some dumb*** throws out an AoE immobilize just cause they shoved 3 damage procs in it, or if I'm an Ice or Earth controller using Ice Slick or Earthquake, you *DO NOT* spam powers indiscriminately. Do you have a human brain? Then use it. If the situation tells you Gale might eff something up, then you do not use it.

Don't try to play the sides and support a 'do what you want' argument just to counter EvilGeko. The idiotic spamming of things can interfere with allies, which is exactly the thing to support his claims.


And this is the direction the game would head to if we could straight out turn off KB.

I can think of a slew of enemy groups where, if people just tried rolling threw them without thinking, the battle would last *too* long. Where a battle with a group of Tsoo would normally last 20sec, forgetting about the Sorcerers can extend that to minutes. I've been on PuGs where multiple spawns aggroed and no one even knew how many Sorcerers there were. There were bosses all over the place, melees debuffed to hell, the support threw out everything they could and all they did was yell about the enemy not dying. When we finally started coordinating, some allies focusing together on one boss at a time while another couple broke off to chase after sorcerers, the battle finally started to whind down after communication. I was the Tanker on that team (SD/DM), and was probably on my list of 'Funnest Fight In-Game'. It wasn't *hard* and no one died, but just required....*GASP* Communication!

That's where the game should be headed toward. Not mindless spamming, one-star shows, me me me mentality.

So reality check. You're arguing the game was 'meant to be played' a certain way when in reality, if you're not some Tanker or Scrapper or hopped up on IOs, you might die or at least screw up synergy with the team...this goes for a lot of different effect, including just pure damage attacks. If you're telling me we're playing a game where no one needs to secure a plan of action or make sure everyones on the same page, then changing the game so it's even more mindlessness and simple is what I'm arguing *against*. Not how the game currently is, but where the game would be headed.

A nazi control freak leader is dickish? Well so is an idiot spamming powers, aggroing s***, getting his team killed and ultimately, trying to shoulder the whole team and carry them through the mission rather than supporting their efforts.

Right, because there's never a middle-ground. Either all KB/repel/intangible/immobilize all the time or none...