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Requiem may be a Nictus, but he's a puppet of the Council, not the other way around. Arakhn's the closest thing to a Nictus "puppet master". I'm not saying Requiem couldn't work as a Nictus, I'm just saying it makes very little sense to cast the Council that way, since Requiem's whole schtick is trying to not be part of the Council. Now, if it were possible for Requiem to give the Center the boot and take over in response to Reichsman taking away Requiem's own group, that might work, but you'd also be booting Arakhn from the picture in that case, and losing the Nictus connection.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
He revels in the destruction of the multiverse. Sounds pretty nihilistic to me. Later on when you have lured him back into the light with a candle of pure flame he says that he is glad to be defeated, in a way, and that he has seen the multiverse and despised it. Clear nihilistic tendencies. He may be 5th Column but he's also Nictus. Being the puppets of nictus masters is what should make the Council nihilists, not the other way around. Requiem is quite extraordinary in that he has remained in control over himself despite being possessed by a nictus for so long.
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...not that I'd mind the Nictus getting to be their own group in that case, mind you.
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They weren't always. They used to be magic werewolves before someone wiped his *** with the story bible.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Warwolves are sort of nictus byproducts, so they fit.
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What I want to see for the Council and Column is the following:
Council retain their werewolves, their vampires, their robots and their signature characters, including Requiem. The Column, however, is remade using the advanced tech and limitless resources of Axis Amerika. New troops with better gear and different uniforms, better robots and a different kind of monsters, more Return to Castle Wolfenstein than Hitler vs. Stalin comics. Give them hulking half-man, half-machine mutants, give them magically-powered undead, give them supermutants. Leave the sissy stuff to the Council and reinvent the 5th. They're the ones lacking.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Possibly because that sounds like it deserved to be used as toilet paper? |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
They weren't always. They used to be magic werewolves before someone wiped his *** with the story bible.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Leave the sissy stuff to the Council and reinvent the 5th. They're the ones lacking.
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I don't think either is lacking I just think they are too similar.
In my pipe-dream the 5th Column would be all black and red helmeted trenchcoat-wearing nazi bad-***** with flamethrowers, chain guns and bazookas, supported by Vandal's robots and Nosferatu's vampires. Like what they are today but cranked to 11. Oh and they would hate the nictus/Council almost more than they hate minorities of the wrong color and sexual orientation. Throw in an evil female nazi leader too, in charge of a brutal organisation of female assassins. Like the Knives of Artemis but more evil and less mercenary.
The Council would keep the warwolves since they have been a nictus byproduct now for about 10 times longer than they were ever magical werewolves, and changing them back now would be even weirder. They will have the galaxy soldiers, the nictus and void hunters. Basically all of them should be powered by a nictus or nictus shards. Get rid of the robots or make the robots run on nictus fragments too, to make them different from Vandal's robots. If they need an explanation they can turn Burkholder into a nictus and make him join the Council more ... permanently. Make the Center into a nictus possessed mad-man too, just to make sure there's no talk about the 5th "taking over" again.
If necessary we'd shake up the internal organization of each group once again, shift some allegiances and loyalties around to make sure that all the nictus end up with the Council, and none with the 5th.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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I approve of this message. Council just need to have something done with them, and I think nihilism is a good start. The whole 'we're fascists/robots/space aliens/werewolves/vampires for world domination!' thing just... doesn't work in my opinion. The group doesn't really have any sort of theme of its own... or rather, it tries to have too many themes at once and just ends up a cluster****. The Council feels like they were trying to make it CoH's Cobra and ended up throwing in half a dozen things that weren't big enough to be factions of their own.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
I don't think either is lacking I just think they are too similar.
In my pipe-dream the 5th Column would be all black and red helmeted trenchcoat-wearing nazi bad-***** with flamethrowers, chain guns and bazookas, supported by Vandal's robots and Nosferatu's vampires. Like what they are today but cranked to 11. Oh and they would hate the nictus/Council almost more than they hate minorities of the wrong color and sexual orientation. Throw in an evil female nazi leader too, in charge of a brutal organisation of female assassins. Like the Knives of Artemis but more evil and less mercenary. The Council would keep the warwolves since they have been a nictus byproduct now for about 10 times longer than they were ever magical werewolves, and changing them back now would be even weirder. They will have the galaxy soldiers, the nictus and void hunters. Basically all of them should be powered by a nictus or nictus shards. Get rid of the robots or make the robots run on nictus fragments too, to make them different from Vandal's robots. If they need an explanation they can turn Burkholder into a nictus and make him join the Council more ... permanently. Make the Center into a nictus possessed mad-man too, just to make sure there's no talk about the 5th "taking over" again. If necessary we'd shake up the internal organization of each group once again, shift some allegiances and loyalties around to make sure that all the nictus end up with the Council, and none with the 5th. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I say the 5th Column is lacking, because it's like the Council but with less variety. They are an old, deprecated enemy group that needs a facelift. Resources considered, only one can realistically be expected to get said facelift, and I just feel it should be the one which needs it more.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
I don't think either is lacking I just think they are too similar.
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Besides, redesigning the 5th requires less of a storyline justification, considering all the named Columnists are already in the Council. So instead of inventing reasons for them to be back, I say introduce new players and new factions. That way, there's less old content that gets invalidated.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That way, there's less old content that gets invalidated.
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But, but, but... I thought we wanted them to revamp old content.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
To me, the most interesting thing about the Council and the Nictus is the Path of the Dark: a secret society that has been operating from the shadows for centuries. I would say that the Council should lose the vamps and robots (have Nosferatu, Vandal and Burkholder defect to the 5th) and stick with Nictus-based stuff (as was suggested above) and become more of an Illuminati-type group.
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Revamp, yes, but not all at the same time. If you remove Mek Men, War Wolves, Vampyri and Ubermenschen from the council, you essentially slash almost all of the story arcs they have from the old content, and a fair few missions besides. Yes, they already did that once... And completely dropped the ball on it because it was a rush job.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
But, but, but... I thought we wanted them to revamp old content.
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Ideally, I'd like to see the Column get their own missions back. Don't they have those on file somewhere? But I feel that revamping those missions to just be better written as opposed to completely different is more... Plausible? I don't know.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I want to see the Council become mutant hating, aggro onthe mutant origin heroes first baddies!
Yelling such things as "MUTANT SCUM!" "WE HATE MUTANTS!" and having a mutant origin ups your aggro
Mutant origin says how people fear mutants, lets see it in action!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Studying this thread, I like some of the ideas, not so much the others.
This is what I would like to see:
Council robots get a major makeover, make them Nictus powered, with Nictus style attacks. At their hearts, Nictus crystals, and every so often, when you defeat one it spits out a Nictus which attacks you.
Burkholder switches sides mid-story, so till lvl 35, he's with the Council, then in a dramatic story, TF/etc, he switches to the 5th. (have it a vil-side TF, they could use one)
Remove the Vampyr from the Council, have Nosferatu back with the 5th. Bring the Dark Vampyr to the council, along with a few Nictus. These guys will remain the experimental wing of the 5th Column, and they use stolen Nictus for it.
Have new arcs, or revamped arcs where you have Requiem trying to steal back the 5th, and getting hammered down by the Council in the process.
I love the anti-Mutant idea, it makes a lot of sence for a Fascist organization to reject such mutations and try and organize against it. It would also make a solid difference between them and the 5th.
I'd also ramp up the Galaxy and Ascendants, and get a half-way step in there. I'd like it so that by lvl 40, all Council have at least basic Nictus implants and are not using traditional weapons. Like how we now have "Nebula" "Prenumbra" and "Vortex" these new soldiers would be "Shadow". They start appearing at lvl 35, and become dominant at 40.
They do need a mission. The Nihilism is interesting, but it's just not comic-y enough. I'd reach a bit more, and instead play up the Ubermesch of Nietzche. Their goal is not world domination, it's world colonization. Their goal is to use humanity as hosts, to make more Nictus, and use up this planets resources before they migrate to the next. Disembodied Galactus, so to say. The 5th, to them, stand in their way. Arachnos, however, helps by weakening those who would stand against them. Play up the Council-Arachnos link, that they began as the same organization way back in the annals of time.
I haven't done the task force(s) involving Riesch.... Rich... Nazi-Statesman, but I don't like the idea that he is now the 5th's leader. It should have always been Requiem, if you ask me.
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Hnnnnnng!! *crosses fingers at this* This is what I always thought the 5th should be!
| In my pipe-dream the 5th Column would be all black and red helmeted trenchcoat-wearing nazi bad-***** with flamethrowers, chain guns and bazookas, supported by Vandal's robots and Nosferatu's vampires. Like what they are today but cranked to 11. Oh and they would hate the nictus/Council almost more than they hate minorities of the wrong color and sexual orientation. |
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Well, my own thing to point out here is that the Council use astrologically themed names with the exception of the Ascendants. My own recommendations for names of this new caste would include: Nadir, Crescent, Black Hole (though this may overlap with Vortex and Voids a bit much), Zodiac (Or any of the signs of the astrological zodiac), and... something else, I'm sure.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Apollon
I'd also ramp up the Galaxy and Ascendants, and get a half-way step in there. I'd like it so that by lvl 40, all Council have at least basic Nictus implants and are not using traditional weapons. Like how we now have "Nebula" "Prenumbra" and "Vortex" these new soldiers would be "Shadow". They start appearing at lvl 35, and become dominant at 40.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Apollon
Arachnos, however, helps by weakening those who would stand against them. Play up the Council-Arachnos link, that they began as the same organization way back in the annals of time.
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As a funny note about Nihilists, I once tried to reimagine the The Skulls for an AE arc where they're revisted as a group of Nihilists to fit their "death" theme. So if any enemy group gets changed up to have nihilist philosophies, I'm going to say it should be the skulls, they need a real banner. The Hellions are Satanic Anarchists, why can't the Skulls be Necrophiliac Nihilists?
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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No reason except that the Skulls are only around for 10 levels or so, but the Council goes from 1-50. And the Skulls aren't a believable threat to the safety of the world. They basically don't have the bite to support their bark. The Council are believable as a force that could destroy the world if they were given half a chance.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
As a funny note about Nihilists, I once tried to reimagine the The Skulls for an AE arc where they're revisted as a group of Nihilists to fit their "death" theme. So if any enemy group gets changed up to have nihilist philosophies, I'm going to say it should be the skulls, they need a real banner. The Hellions are Satanic Anarchists, why can't the Skulls be Necrophiliac Nihilists?
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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Well, like Tibit Jr. said, Nihilism doesn't quite feel 'comic book-y', and with it being used on the Skulls, they're at least throwaway enemies. And like I said, they do need to be may a bit more interesting. (And I wouldn't object to hellions and skulls going up to twenty if they were made interesting enough.)|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
No reason except that the Skulls are only around for 10 levels or so, but the Council goes from 1-50. And the Skulls aren't a believable threat to the safety of the world. They basically don't have the bite to support their bark. The Council are believable as a force that could destroy the world if they were given half a chance.
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But that's getting WAY off topic. I do agree that they should keep the "Ubermensch" idealism too, since it would work out with them hating mutants, and while it steps back alittle onto the toes of the Fifth Column, Nazis tend to not always need to be associated with that, they've become their own thing in people's minds.
They're Nazis, the real life example of villainous mooks (even though a number of them were good people who weren't able to argue with their country), they don't NEED an actual manifesto, as long as they invoke enough of the nazi imagery that Samuel Tow mentions, they ride out the rest of it on Rule of Cool. (Specifically, the rule of Cool that is beating Nazis)
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Darth Vader quote made my day. I love you.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Sounds good to me. The Fifth have and always will be cooler than the Council (as cool as evil can be. It's like Darth Vader, only with 100% less 'Nooooooo!' and more penchant for outrageous Pythonesue German accents
 )Also, seeing more NPC Nictus in-game rather than the copy-paste Nova/Dwarf/Galaxy/Void combo that comes up would be awesome. |
Yes, council need to be less generic. They look cool, fo' sho' and have that cheesy G.I.Joe feel to them, that makes them cool already. More giant robots needed I think.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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Whoa, wait, what? When did I say that? I didn't even touch the topic of the Skulls, so you might be quoting someone else.| Well, like Tibit Jr. said, Nihilism doesn't quite feel 'comic book-y', and with it being used on the Skulls, they're at least throwaway enemies. |
Also, seemingly off-topic: since the 5th Column has been back for a while, can we get a 5th Column logo chest detail to accompany the Council veteran one?
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That works even better|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Well, my own thing to point out here is that the Council use astrologically themed names with the exception of the Ascendants. My own recommendations for names of this new caste would include: Nadir, Crescent, Black Hole (though this may overlap with Vortex and Voids a bit much), Zodiac (Or any of the signs of the astrological zodiac), and... something else, I'm sure.
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| I'm not sure if it's ever been confirmed if Arachnos and the Council/Column have links beyond both, I believe, starting as Facist groups in Italy, though the Column's part involved them migrating to Germany. |
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| As a funny note about Nihilists, I once tried to reimagine the The Skulls for an AE arc where they're revisted as a group of Nihilists to fit their "death" theme. So if any enemy group gets changed up to have nihilist philosophies, I'm going to say it should be the skulls, they need a real banner. The Hellions are Satanic Anarchists, why can't the Skulls be Necrophiliac Nihilists? |
I say make Council be the one thing the game is missing, though it states it when you choose it.
Turn the Coucil into the saviors of humanity, wiping out all mutants!
Have them aggro on anyone with a mutant origin like a cat on catnip.
That level one see's a level 50, it attacks that level 50!
Doing a mission, that tech tanker better work really hard to protect that mutant defender.
Doing a mission and the tanker is a mutant? Aggro management just got a lot easier.
Have Council on the streets with picket signs, saying "Mutants Suck!" "Mutant are Inhuman" ect...ect...
Then throw in some civilians walking the street who stop and cheer on the Council, possibly joining in.
Have those same civilians throw tomatoes (recolored snowball) at mutant heroes saying "Mutants go home!"
Let's get some of the anti-mutant sentiment that it says is there in the description of mutants, into the game!
Council would be perfect for it!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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...except the Center's a mutant.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Turn the Coucil into the saviors of humanity, wiping out all mutants!
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Originally Posted by Viridian
The next one will be difficult. Very difficult. I have an invitation for the Center, the leader of the Council. He won't fight you. He's over 90 years old, and though he's a mutant, he has no combat mutations.
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Originally Posted by The CoH Homepage
The Vendetti Family came to ruin nearly 60 years ago, when the charismatic mutant known as 'The Center' plundered their criminal empire for money to split from the old Arachnos and found the criminal organization called the Council.
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And Greyson Creed in X-Men, one of the vehement anti-mutant Senators out there, was himself the son of two Mutants. In real life there were black people who were pro-slavery, pro-segregation, pro-jim-crow, etc. This is not a game stopper.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
...except the Center's a mutant.
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Again, this sort of revamp would actually fit the 5th Column better. Of course Nazis hate mutants! They hate everybody! Who woulda thunk it? Though since Nazis kinda hate everybody, more or less, it might lose its flair. Still, while I'm not arguing against the concept, I'm once again unsure that the Council is really the best fit. |
Perhaps instead, that angle needs to be pushed forward. But another "Oh, out for world domination" is just going to make eyes roll, the game has several of those. What is the Councils angle?
My thought, what if they are still Fascists? While the 5th are Nazi, there is a distinct difference in pure Facism as was found in Italy, Spain, Argentina, Brazil and Iraq. Their goal is the unification of government and the corporate, reinforced monopolys, dismantling of social services for replacement by private entities controlled by a select few. This angle requires the least amount of work. What it would need, primarily, is a serious push into ties with the "big evil corporations" in our world, such as Aeon Tech, Crey, and Cage Corp. Similar to how the Syndicate works in Praetoria. They funnel funds, troops, etc to their front groups, and are as a result much harder to stamp out. Play up the Council aspect, that they are like Al Qaeda, not a single organization, but instead an umbrella for other organizations to work with, coordinate, and conqueror.
Heck, I'd have the Council having taken over multiple countries from the inside, or attempt to with heros stopping their actions. I'm thinking the World Wide Red arc level here, and it could be a simple case of using the existing missions, with new text.
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Not distinct enough, sorry.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Apollon
My thought, what if they are still Fascists? While the 5th are Nazi, there is a distinct difference in pure Facism as was found in Italy, Spain, Argentina, Brazil and Iraq.
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Nihilism or bust. Nihilism all the way. Make them the suckers who really are going to destroy the world if they get a chance. Make them REALLY alien (that kind of nihilism is quite inhuman - real-world nihilists probably wouldn't bother trying to actively destroy the world), and give us a reason to REALLY hate them.
You thought Rikti were bad? They are bunny-rabbits compared to these Nictus I have in mind. Conquering earth and enslaving humanity? Waste of time for the Nictus. Possess as many as necessary and then just kill everyone. Blot out the sun while you're at it. Wipe out all evidence of Earth ever having had life, and wipe the entire history of humanity away forever. Then do it again on the next world.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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Ok, this I like. The only problem is why hasn't it happened yet? The Nictus have been on Earth for millennia. If this was their goal, then they kinda suck at it (unless the idea is that there wasn't advanced enough technology to bring them to the planet en masse until recently- which actually fits with a few of the arcs now that I think of it.)
| You thought Rikti were bad? They are bunny-rabbits compared to these Nictus I have in mind. Conquering earth and enslaving humanity? Waste of time for the Nictus. Possess as many as necessary and then just kill everyone. Blot out the sun while you're at it. Wipe out all evidence of Earth ever having had life, and wipe the entire history of humanity away forever. Then do it again on the next world |
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Originally Posted by New_Age_Ronin
Ok, this I like. The only problem is why hasn't it happened yet? The Nictus have been on Earth for millennia. If this was their goal, then they kinda suck at it (unless the idea is that there wasn't advanced enough technology to bring them to the planet en masse until recently- which actually fits with a few of the arcs now that I think of it.)
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This would work, quite well.
He revels in the destruction of the multiverse. Sounds pretty nihilistic to me. Later on when you have lured him back into the light with a candle of pure flame he says that he is glad to be defeated, in a way, and that he has seen the multiverse and despised it. Clear nihilistic tendencies. He may be 5th Column but he's also Nictus. Being the puppets of nictus masters is what should make the Council nihilists, not the other way around. Requiem is quite extraordinary in that he has remained in control over himself despite being possessed by a nictus for so long.