Why do SoA refuse to get tactical training : Tactics and Tactical Training Maneuvers?
By
Alkirin,
Posted on: 2010-10-08 06:04 in Soldiers of Arachnos
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Originally Posted by Frogfather
Ive been referencing forts this whole time. Even that line which you took out of context speaks about Mind Link. Go build your strawman elsewhere.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Brakner So your needs to create a theme character is more important than the overall well being of the group? In the CoH I play, most people ask for VEATs for the 60 toggles for the team buffs not their AoE, if I wanted just AoE I would advertize for a blaster or corrupter. Youre being just as much of a I play my way nazi as he is for wanting the key powers from a specific class. ? |
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| Really? Being perturbed over being kicked from a team is the same as kicking people who dont have a specific power? I just want to add no one is espousing not taking TT:Manuveurs. Least I havent garnered that.....the counterpoint to this hate fest is that theres more than one way to contribute to the team and if theres a couple other +Def sources (likely) on the team and the SoA in question has other bonuses (like perma-ML which is far more powerful than TT:M.) what the heck does it matter if youre not getting your 5% unslotted def bonus? |
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Originally Posted by Frogfather
1. Really? Do we have to do this every permutation thing and nitpick...really?
2. And the only source of +def on this mythical team that youre kicking people from is the SoA? None of the other buffs this mythical SoA without TT:M brings is worth keeping around? This is the only one worth anything to you? So is the converse true....if this mythical SoA takes TT:M but takes 3 power pools worth of powers and is a dillhole besides is he now worth keeping? What level do this mythical SoA have to take TT:M by to fit your design standards....? Sometimes I think people need to realize this is just a game and theres a certain amount of fun in just playing it... |
It's not a nitpick dude. People like you throw around that 45% number all the time as if it's some magic number that makes everything else irrelevant. Well, it's bogus. Situational understanding of the game applies in Situations. They come up frequently. Your "Really?" is just another way of saying, "Oh, Yea?"
As for your second point: There might be more sources of team defense, but let's look at it sensibly. There aren't that many team defense buffs. Let's assume for a second that there is No Force Field toon on the team. Other team defense options include Steamy Mist and Shadow Fall. There's a few others. None have as wide an area as TT:M. Few if any are as powerful as a Crab or Bane TT:M. And No, except for Mind Link, the SoA has No buff as valuable to the team as TT:M. None.
Of course I would prefer a smart player with a bad build to a ****** with a good build. But I find playing with my coalition mates allows me to not have to make that choice. I don't PuG, pretty much ever. Specifically so I can avoid people who don't know what they're doing.
So you keep on playing your game where no power is more important than any other, where you're happy to be not merely less than optimal but in fact a drain on team resources. Meanwhile I'll be over here playing with people who understand what the term "key power" means.
Yes, there is a certain amount of fun playing it. A large part of that fun, for me and many others, is capitalizing on team synergy, especially stacking of buffs and debuffs. I expect anyone playing a Tank to stay unmezzed and keep aggro. I expect anyone playing a Blaster to do a lot of damage. I expect anyone playing Storm Summoning to drop Freezing Rain on the enemy. I expect any Controller or Dom to Hold enemies. And I expect any SoA to bring significant Defense buffing to my team.
I wouldn't kick them unless they were, as you say, a dillhole. I don't kick people for having bad builds. But I would tell them in no uncertain terms that TT:M is an essential power and I would not team with them again if I found they kept skipping it.
One last time: an SoA without TT:M is dead weight. I don't care what other powers they take as long as they do Some damage and aren't getting themselves killed, and I'm okay with them putting off TT:M as far as about 14 or 16. After that they are not filling their role if they don't have it.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Well, it depends.
That 10-15% defense is absurdly strong, and fiercely benefits not only the team, but the user itself. Not taking TT:M demonstrates a dire lack of understanding of the actual function of the game's mechanics and severely weakens the Arachnos Soldier who fails to pick it up. People who liken it to a Rad missing one of their anchor debuff toggles aren't far off the mark.
Would I kick an SoA for not having it? 95% of the time, probably not, especially if they're decent people. Because 95% of the time in big PuGs you do not need a full understanding of the actual function of the game.
I realize we forumites are more number-conscious people, and yet 95% of the time with this game, you... really barely need to understand what you're doing to play. If I was on most TFs and I noticed this I'd probably just ask why, and attempt to encourage them to take it as soon as possible. Most of the time this discrepancy, given how easy this game is, will not be the difference between success or failure. It will be the difference between my approving silence and mild noted disapproval.
The other 5%, though - Master Of runs, for instance - I would definitely not allow an SoA who did not take TT:M on my team. Not having it demonstrates severe flaws in one's mechanical understanding that may go well beyond even the lack of that 10% defense, and in cases where that lack of understanding may actually be the difference between success and failure, I would not trust my fate to someone whose grasp of Defense was yet in need of so much correction as to not take and slot TT:M by 50.
It's weird because considering how low spiders are in terms of overall population, those who choose to play one do so because they realize the massive benefit of TT:M and stackin up other leadership abilities. Being able to do such a thing is exclusive only to this AT. No other AT can provide so many team buffs while retaining blaster level damage.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
Did you just say... blaster level damage? lol
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lol, yea, I saw that too|
Originally Posted by Person34
Did you just say... blaster level damage? lol
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SoAs do good damage, but not Blaster level damage.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
+30% constant damage from double assault, -20 res AoE from Venom Grenade, 4 Achilles -20 res procs 2 of them in AoE (I realize they don't stack but with 4 of them I this up on hard targets very often), -20 Res with high damage from Shatter Armor, and 6 pets all at +30% dmg....
I really don't understand what you're 'lol'ing about. That's a lot of damage.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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Has nothing to do with creating a "theme" character. Stop acting like the notion insults your sense of balance. If you can't survive having an SOA on the team without the team buffs, you must not be able to survive without an SOA on the team in the first place, yes? Would you die if you replaced a TT-equipped SOA with another Brute (for example)? I hope not.|
Originally Posted by Brakner
So your needs to create a theme character is more important than the overall well being of the group?
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You act as if team buffs are the only thing ANY character has the ability to bring to a team. You will never be anything but wrong.
Conversely, to anyone out there that's actually OPPOSED to getting the team buffs on their SOA... all I can say is "dual build" - if a build fascist is going to insist you have them in order to team with them, and you're actually (for some odd reason) concerned about this, give yourself an out.
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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Nor does a competent team need more buffs. Don't get me wrong, I like and use the TT powers, but saying you require someone else's toon (i.e. NOT YOURS) to have them is the epitome of arrogance.|
Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
Would I kick an SoA for not having it? 95% of the time, probably not, especially if they're decent people. Because 95% of the time in big PuGs you do not need a full understanding of the actual function of the game.
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| The other 5%, though - Master Of runs, for instance - I would definitely not allow an SoA who did not take TT:M on my team. Not having it demonstrates severe flaws in one's mechanical understanding that may go well beyond even the lack of that 10% defense, and in cases where that lack of understanding may actually be the difference between success and failure, I would not trust my fate to someone whose grasp of Defense was yet in need of so much correction as to not take and slot TT:M by 50. |
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
It's not arrogance. It's YOUR arrogance to think people should happily carry your gimped toon through content.
And yes, I would happily replace an SoA without TT:M with a Brute. No, I don't require the buffs from TT:M. I just require SOME useful contribution. A Brute (provided he has a Taunt Aura and Mez Protection) can provide useful contributions. A Widow with ML and no TT:M CAN, but could do more. A Soldier without TT:M cannot.
I'd rather have a Stalker or Blaster than a Soldier without TT:M.
No one is acting like team buffs are the only valuable contribution a toon can make. However, TT:M (followed by Venom Grenade) IS IN FACT the Greatest contribution a Soldier can make.
I don't support people making petless MMs, I don't support people making Auraless Tanks, and I don't support people making TT:Mless Soldiers. Much like Any intelligently built toon (even a stalker) is more useful than the petless MM and the Auraless Tank, the same is true of the TT:Mless Soldier.
Also, to blueruckus, yea, that's a good amount of damage. But Team that toon with an Actual Blaster and the Blaster will receive All the benefit from your buffs and debuffs and thereby do Way more damage than you.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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I'd agree with this... if fighting GMs and AVs were the only reason I formed teams.
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Originally Posted by Brakner
We then die 15 times because we cannot make a dent in the GMs regen, how is this fair for the team?
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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And again, we're back to your assumption that a toon that can provide team buffs, but DOESN'T, has no way to contribute to a team's success. Yes sir, it IS your arrogance we're talking about.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
It's not arrogance. It's YOUR arrogance to think people should happily carry your gimped toon through content.
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
I could really care less what powers my teammates did, or didn't take. Unless it's a masters run.
Also not sure why people think you need to carry someone just because they didn't take a few good powers. When I'm on a team I'm not relying on what others bring to the table, but maybe that has more to do with how I build/play my toons. Now if they didn't take any attacks but their tier 1, I would be annoyed but I wouldn't kick them. :P
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
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I agree with what you're saying there, however this is not what I was stating. I was stating that the overall damage provided by a single SoA with the setup I mentioned will bring in a similar amount of damage to that expected from a blaster. If we want to talk about the blaster being more damaging BECAUSE of the SoA buffs/debuffs than that's a different story. |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Also, to blueruckus, yea, that's a good amount of damage. But Team that toon with an Actual Blaster and the Blaster will receive All the benefit from your buffs and debuffs and thereby do Way more damage than you.
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By that logic, I will claim the extra damage from the blaster as damage the SoA is causing because of the buffs/debuffs. On top of that, the extra damage that the rest of the team is causing will also be attributed to the SoA and then I can say that the SoA is providing and overwhelmingly larger amount of damage than the blaster.
So yeah, what's the lol'ing about?
Edit - Sorry, didn't mean to go on a tangent. I still agree with you on everything else regarding this thread. Any SoA who doesn't take TT:M needs to just go away.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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Ah here we go. Lets set the scenario up, just like you did by pointing out end game has tremendous amounts of -def, so that youre correct...course if there was some def on the team to begin with and one or two other sources of +def or Mind Link then wouldnt something else be more valuable? You are correct sir, you do have a situational understanding of the game.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
It's not a nitpick dude. People like you throw around that 45% number all the time as if it's some magic number that makes everything else irrelevant. Well, it's bogus. Situational understanding of the game applies in Situations. They come up frequently. Your "Really?" is just another way of saying, "Oh, Yea?"
As for your second point: There might be more sources of team defense, but let's look at it sensibly. There aren't that many team defense buffs. Let's assume for a second that there is No Force Field toon on the team. Other team defense options include Steamy Mist and Shadow Fall. There's a few others. None have as wide an area as TT:M. Few if any are as powerful as a Crab or Bane TT:M. And No, except for Mind Link, the SoA has No buff as valuable to the team as TT:M. None. |
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
Of course I would prefer a smart player with a bad build to a ****** with a good build. But I find playing with my coalition mates allows me to not have to make that choice. I don't PuG, pretty much ever. Specifically so I can avoid people who don't know what they're doing.
So you keep on playing your game where no power is more important than any other, where you're happy to be not merely less than optimal but in fact a drain on team resources. Meanwhile I'll be over here playing with people who understand what the term "key power" means. |
My only true opinion is kicking people for their builds is dumb. Politely pointing them in a different direction is a better route to go...
As a side note to no one, I think we can all agree that Masters Runs are off the table. Build for those as selectively as you want.
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Originally Posted by Brakner
Your reply
You might have been referencing forts and mind link earlier in the thread but you added that 5% unslotted line to my comment about "most people ask for VEATs for the 60 toggles". So if someone is out of context I believe it is you..... |
Fair enough....I misunderstood your point, you quoted me out of context. Im big enough to admit the former....
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No, it's not arrogance. It's understanding the powersets. I didn't ONCE say that the SoA without TT:M contributes nothing. What I said was that TT:M is THE best thing it can contribute. Giving it up is just dumb.|
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
And again, we're back to your assumption that a toon that can provide team buffs, but DOESN'T, has no way to contribute to a team's success. Yes sir, it IS your arrogance we're talking about.
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Yes, you CAN do without it, and you CAN probably get through much of the content of the game without it, but why WOULD you? We're talking about one power that contains 75% of the SR set in itself and 2 added slots. What possible reason could anyone have for skipping it that isn't purely fanciful?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Hmmm, I think we're possibly making incorrect assumptions about what the other person is advocating here.
I'm not debating that most/all of the TT powers are good to have. I'm not debating that, in either a team OR solo context, they're some of the best powers for a SOA to take. And I'm certainly not advocating blindly teaming with someone withOUT them on particularly difficult content - AV/GM fights, MO TFs and the like.
The two things I DO have a problem with: kicking someone from a team that does NOT fall into the above categories simply because they don't have them, and telling someone else how to build THEIR characters.
I honestly don't care about the REASONS a person might not take them. It was, after all, their choice to make. Might make ME scratch my head, but if they can take up the slack with solid tactics, I don't have any long term issues with it. An idiot is going to be a detriment to any team, regardless of the power choices they make, but the power choices they make don't automatically make them an idiot.
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
I don't mean to sound rude or anything....
but if a widow or soldier doesn't have maneuvers, or mind link...they need to be kicked from the team.
without team buffs, they don't bring much that couldn't easily be replaced by a controller or blaster
and my widow is my main.
the whole ENTIRE reason people want me is because my buffs bringing their defenses up 20%, and then mind link on top of that pushing them all the way to softcap, even if I'm still about 20% recharge from perma-link.
I just honestly think...we're built to be walls of moving defense and awesome bufferage(yes, bufferage), and that having a VEAT without those powers is like having a defender that doesn't ever use any of its support skills, or a tank that doesn't use its defensive powers.
Magisterum- 50+3 Fortunata--Virtue
Lukerion- 33 Emp/Rad Defender--Virtue
Noah Heartily- 34 SS/SD brute- Virtue
Mika Heartily- 50+1 Fire/MM blaster-Virtue
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How rude...
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Originally Posted by Rintera
I don't mean to sound rude or anything....
but if a widow or soldier doesn't have maneuvers, or mind link...they need to be kicked from the team. |
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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Why do I have a mental picture of Jar Jar Binks right now |
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
How rude...
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Okay, this has come up twice, and I feel the need to address it. |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
I don't support people making petless MMs, I don't support people making Auraless Tanks, and I don't support people making TT:Mless Soldiers.
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First of all, a petless Mastermind is skipping FIVE POWERS from his Primary. Likely, he is skipping a sixth as well, as it only effects pets. Thugs would be an exception, but then one might argue Gang War is itself a pet and thus off limits in a "petless" build as well. The point is, this is a huge chunk of the Mastermind's available Powers, and not in any way comparable to the choice to take or not to take ONE power from the Secondary.
A Tanker not taking any of his defenses is, again, dropping a good 33%-50% of his Powers. It's not like the Tanker has anything in his Primary other than defenses, at skipping them both reduce his contribution to the team, and lessen his ability to deal damage, since he won't be able to survive to finish anything off at his Tanker level of damage.
A Tanker skipping his Taunt aura, however, is again not the same thing. Sure, in most cases he can't Taunt as well with it as he can without it, but you might as well say that all Tankers should take Taunt. One or the other should be adequate to do the job, both is just ensuring good aggro handling. The bigger issue to me would be whether the Taunt aura itself was integral to the Tanker's defense, like with Invincibility or RttC. (And RttC is going to be far more useful for its survivability than for its Taunt aura, leading to the likely need to take Taunt on TOP of that)
Tactical Training: Manuevers is ONE POWER. Yes, it's a good 75% of his defense on a Spider. It is not on a Widow. And even a Spider doesn't have a Secondary devoted entirely to defense. There's a reason TT:M is so important, it's because a Wolf Spider has 3 defensive powers in his whole Secondary, a Crab has 6, and a Bane has 5. (If you count Cloaking Device as a defense, it's primarily an offensive boost)
TT:M is valuable, yes, but it's a long way from a petless Mastermind.
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Which is exactly why it's frustrating that a spider not take his ONE very important power.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
\Tactical Training: Manuevers is ONE POWER. Yes, it's a good 75% of his defense on a Spider.
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At this point, I really don't see where this thread is going. Everyone seems to be in the same boat that TT:M is a very important power to an SoA. I guess the argument now is not about that but how one of these weird SoA's who doesn't take said power should be treated.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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But an SoA is NOT a Spider. There are Widows in that category as well.|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
Which is exactly why it's frustrating that a spider not take his ONE very important power.
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Just to say it, I am not arguing the premise, merely trying in my own way to avoid overgeneralization of the argument. (That's actually usually why I end up dropping into a thread)
I think really it comes down to, you should have TT:M on a Spider, but anything you have after that is a bonus. For a Widow, Mind Link seems to take the priority, but you can take TT:M after that. Outside of that, it's up to the build.
I suppose you COULD choose something else with a Spider that would be as useful, but really your only comparitive choice defensively is Manuevers itself, and that's clearly going to use more End and have less Defense. You'd honestly be better off skipping something like Combat Training: Defense or the second Spider armor.
With a Fort or a Night Widow, though, well, obviously a Fortunata's control powers will provide damage mitigation a Spider wouldn't. A Night Widow is going to be more of a damage dealing orientation, and Elude is going to provide WAY more personal Defense than TT:M would.