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I wonder if PvP rewards was a system doomed to fail from the beginning (at least doomed to fail at bringing in more people). Personally, I'm not a fan of PvP. I never have been, and I probably never will be, both in this game and in others. I'm not going to PvP regardless of how good the rewards are, unless the game requires it (in which case I'm probably not going to be playing that game). |
Originally Posted by Syndace
I would love to see a dev pop in here and tell us what the design logic was behind this system. What do you think devs? Is the system fair? If you guys are trying to increase the pvp population it's not very motivating going into a zone knowing you probably won't be rewarded for kills and you have to spend months just getting one pvp set by grinding.
Haven't the devs learned that pvp in this game is lacking motivation? Before balance you have to have motivation. Balance changes can only be made when you have data and statistics to go on. Data and statistics aren't created with empty PvP and arena zones. Why should I pvp? What is my motivation to enter a zone and actually TRY to kill another player besides simple satisfaction? (Which only goes so far) Pvp IO's were a step in the right direction but come on at least make them more obtainable by the masses. Let me do something with Rep to get them if anything. Perhaps cash in Rep for PvP IOs? What is reputation even FOR? I like being solo and seeing +5.00 rep for a kill, but for what? I can get 400 rep in the matter of a week to a month depending on play rate, let us exchange this for some IOs. As of now though I'll just stay at rep cap like I have been at for the past three years. |
I've always kind of gotten the feeling that the people who like to PvP are going to do it regardless of the rewards, simply because they like to do it, and the people who don't like to are going to avoid it, also regardless of how good the rewards are. Sure, adding rewards to PvP is nice for the people who do it, but I'm not sure how successful it will ever be at bringing in the people who don't.
I like the fact they are so hard to get, It's not the case that everyone should be able to have them....
Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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If the game is balanced around SO's and the devs have also informed us that the average player doesn't exceed lvl 30 and so's aren't available (for the most part) until lvl 22 what does that tell you about 2/3rds of the average players' experience and the balance of it against the statement you just made?|
Originally Posted by firespray
It's not ridiculous at all. The difficulty level of the game is designed around players having SOs. The devs have stated this multiple times. SOs are very easily available.
Sure, they've added purples and PVPIOs to the game, which has given us the ability to make uber-leet level 50s, but why does everyone seem to assume that just because something exists in the game, it should be readily available to anyone? Maybe they have 'validated' the mentality of uber 50s, but they've apparently also decided that you can't have one easily. |
What you more accurately meant to say is that the upper level SOLO game is balanced around SO's (and poorly at that). Teams have absolutely no need for them.
Anyway, they HAVE made the ability to create an uber lvl 50 available to pretty much everyone. In fact A merits only serve to make it more readily available to everyone. All you have to do to earn the best pve drops in this game is play any and all pve content.
However the pvp drops have a much different drop system that actually disincentivizes players from actually pvp'ing in the most efficient manner (ie continually attacking the weakest link) and instead forces players to rotate through targets like it is a 5 yr old T-ball game where everyone gets a chance to bat and bats until they hit it.
On top of that the A merit to pvp IO ratio as highlighted earlier in this thread is so completely disconnected from the strength of the IO's that they clearly aren't tying "power" to "time investment" in the case of pvp rewards. That would be fine, but they also don't tie them to proper pvp activity either.
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I didn't really feel it was necessary to point out that the game is only balanced around SOs once they are available. I assumed that was obvious.|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
If the game is balanced around SO's and the devs have also informed us that the average player doesn't exceed lvl 30 and so's aren't available (for the most part) until lvl 22 what does that tell you about 2/3rds of the average players' experience and the balance of it against the statement you just made?
What you more accurately meant to say is that the upper level SOLO game is balanced around SO's (and poorly at that). Teams have absolutely no need for them. |
I also disagree that enhancements are only needed for soloing. Teams need them too. Maybe not really good teams, but your average PuG team isn't going to get far without some sort of enhancements in their powers.
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Originally Posted by Lolblaws
Anyway, they HAVE made the ability to create an uber lvl 50 available to pretty much everyone. In fact A merits only serve to make it more readily available to everyone. All you have to do to earn the best pve drops in this game is play any and all pve content.
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Originally Posted by Lolblaws
However the pvp drops have a much different drop system that actually disincentivizes players from actually pvp'ing in the most efficient manner (ie continually attacking the weakest link) and instead forces players to rotate through targets like it is a 5 yr old T-ball game where everyone gets a chance to bat and bats until they hit it.
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Originally Posted by Lolblaws
On top of that the A merit to pvp IO ratio as highlighted earlier in this thread is so completely disconnected from the strength of the IO's that they clearly aren't tying "power" to "time investment" in the case of pvp rewards.
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How, oh how did we ever do anything when there were no such things as IO's and set bonuses...........
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Originally Posted by firespray
I also disagree that enhancements are only needed for soloing. Teams need them too. Maybe not really good teams, but your average PuG team isn't going to get far without some sort of enhancements in their powers.
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Did I say IOs and set bonuses? No, I said enhancements. Specifically SOs, like the game is balanced around.
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Originally Posted by Psyrene
How, oh how did we ever do anything when there were no such things as IO's and set bonuses...........
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One could say the EXACT same thing about pve rewards and come of just as clueless. Just because pvp rewards haven't been implemented well in this game isn't evidence that they lack value for the playerbase...|
Originally Posted by firespray
I wonder if PvP rewards was a system doomed to fail from the beginning (at least doomed to fail at bringing in more people). Personally, I'm not a fan of PvP. I never have been, and I probably never will be, both in this game and in others. I'm not going to PvP regardless of how good the rewards are, unless the game requires it (in which case I'm probably not going to be playing that game).
I've always kind of gotten the feeling that the people who like to PvP are going to do it regardless of the rewards, simply because they like to do it, and the people who don't like to are going to avoid it, also regardless of how good the rewards are. Sure, adding rewards to PvP is nice for the people who do it, but I'm not sure how successful it will ever be at bringing in the people who don't. |
But in this case you may be like talking to a wall. I don't mean that to be insulting, but you just proclaimed no interest in pvp and proclaimed that there is nothing that anyone could do to create interest in the activity. You bias is obscuring your viewpoint heavily.
On the other hand some people are able to recognize that the game is composed of numerous small activities designed to specifically satisfy sub groups of players. Ideally they all intersect at certain points, but it isn't necessary for a healthy and productive gaming experience.
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Sure it is obvious. Is it obvious that they only enter the equation for ~10 levels of what the average player experiences in this game?|
Originally Posted by firespray
I didn't really feel it was necessary to point out that the game is only balanced around SOs once they are available. I assumed that was obvious.
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| I also disagree that enhancements are only needed for soloing. Teams need them too. Maybe not really good teams, but your average PuG team isn't going to get far without some sort of enhancements in their powers. |
We can do this because spawns don't scale up as quickly as teams do. PC's by and large have a degree of forcemultiplication whereas very few NPC groups do. Because spawn size grows at the same rate (or less) to player additions (typically 2 or less new enemies are added to spawn size for each new player, which is equal to or less than /x1 solo size spawns) it is safe to conclude that PC teams gain power at a higher rate than NPC groups (this is intentional by the way).
Therefore if SO's are needed to solo, then they provide more enhancement than is needed when teamed.
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| I don't disagree with you. But why should the fact that anyone CAN create an uber level 50 mean that it should be easy to do? |
Realistically obtainable in a reasonable amount of time given the reward is not an outlandish expectation or a demand for easily acquiring things is it?
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| It seems to me like this is probably done on purpose. Sure, everyone dogpiling the new guy that doesn't know anything about PvP or how to defend himself is an efficient way to farm PvPIO drops, but it doesn't exactly make a good first impression on the new guy does it? |
As a painfully obvious result there will be disconnect between the rewards and player satisfaction with the process to earning them.
Imagine if the most epic accomplishment badges in the game were earned by walking through city hall in atlas as opposed to doing things like MOSTF...well you probably can't imagine it because it is illogical and would be rejected by the player base. Welcome to the pvp reward system.
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| I see this as a good thing too. Let players decide what things are worth, the devs shouldn't be doing it for us. |
I'm only recently getting into PvP in this game, but I can say from experience in other games that a reward system done wrong is an easy way to ruin it.
So long as PvP is reasonably balanced and there is a place for factions to fight...People will gladly walk out and kick each other's ***** for the sake of it.
I think there is an important element lost when PvP is rendered down to just a slightly more complex means of grinding for 'phat lewt'.
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In the case of competitive PvP everyone should have access to them. |
Originally Posted by Donna_
I like the fact they are so hard to get, It's not the case that everyone should be able to have them....
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I won't speculate on the reasons and whyfors of having a Freedom and Champions pvp league and not a Test league....
I remember Test and it was good. d;D
I did a similar analysis of reward merits need to complete a 50 build earlier, just a regular blaster build with exemplaring in mind - that came out as roughly repeating all heroside content through Ouroboros 7.5 times. Just as in the example presented by the OP, the amount of time you'd have to invest to reach a single build goal on a single character in this alt-friendly game is quite obscene. With A-merits, it's less so for regular set IO's. A finished build in this case means a character that'll be an incentive to keep the subscription active rather than a project that can't be finished within any reasonable time frame giving another reason to quit the game.
Since there is no real difference in actual enhancement values between PvP-IO's of the same type I can't see the logic behind PvP-IO's costing more than purple sets in terms of A-merits. A bit more than regular set-IO's, perhaps, but still.
The "Use the market" cop-out is mentioned earlier - there is no guarantee there is a supply, or you have the sufficient funding to compete there. The irony is that actually spending time playing the game (PvP or PvE) comes out as a huge loss when having a specific build goal in mind compared to ******* the market. It is a pretty poor reward design when the difference is several orders of magnitude in time invested (i.e. years when playing, weeks to possibly months through the market).
TL;DR-version - OP has a valid point. A-merits costs for PvP-IO's needs to be looked at again, they shouldn't force more PvE onto PvP-oriented players than getting a purple does.
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I would say they need to up the actual drop rate of PvP IO's, but I doubt that's going to happen with people afk farming them. Right now that's the only reliable way to get one as a drop.
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Originally Posted by Evilmeister
TL;DR-version - OP has a valid point. A-merits costs for PvP-IO's needs to be looked at again, they shouldn't force more PvE onto PvP-oriented players than getting a purple does.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Simply put... we had two ways of getting PvP IOs before... now we have 3.
That's a good thing. The matter doesn't really have to get any more complicated than that.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Lol yeah that 3 team ladder was pretty awesome!!!
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
I remember Test and it was good. d;D
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He may be talking about the pre i13 ladder where we had 10 teams.
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Indeed. They can also be obtained by playing PvP. But very few people seem to be interested in actually producing these things the way they're intended to be produced.|
Originally Posted by firespray
The OP posted an interesting analysis, and if that were the only way to get purples and PVP IOs, it would be a problem. It's not though. Purples and PVP IOs are available pretty freely on the markets, and it's ridiculously easy to make money in this game.
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To the poster who made the comparison to WoW: Isn't playing PvP a skill-based activity, and aren't the PvP recipes a reward for doing well at it?
Come on, guys. If you want PvP IOs, PvP!
I know the current PvP system ain't perfect, but someone's obviously doing it because there are PvP recipes on the market.
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Except you don't actually earn many drops from pvp'ing in the most efficient manner. If your goal is to win (which is the ONLY goal in this pvp system and it is ONLY achievable through pc defeat) then you end up greatly reducing the number of IO drop opportunities because you are strictly stuck with it rolling once every 5 min.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
Indeed. They can also be obtained by playing PvP. But very few people seem to be interested in actually producing these things the way they're intended to be produced.
To the poster who made the comparison to WoW: Isn't playing PvP a skill-based activity, and aren't the PvP recipes a reward for doing well at it? Come on, guys. If you want PvP IOs, PvP! I know the current PvP system ain't perfect, but someone's obviously doing it because there are PvP recipes on the market. |
If you cycle through targets so that everyone gets a chance to die then you increase the number of IO drop opportunities because the system only rolls against rep valid targets and the rep timer takes 5 min to reset after you kill target 1. Because the only pvp activity in this game is kill count the most efficient way to win is to attack the weakest link over and over again, but that guts your drops.
So sure, more people pvp'ing would of course increase supply, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the reward system is farked up and doesn't actually mesh with the pvp system.
Now if they had alternate pvp activities like capture the flag or king of the hill, or sieging (I guess base raids would fit this description if they were enabled) you might see target rotation happening more often at which point even with the low level of pvp currently happening more drops would occur.
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Because Test isn't a stable, dependable server. When it gets locked down for closed testing, all "regular" activities get the flush and swirly.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
In the case of competitive PvP everyone should have access to them.
I won't speculate on the reasons and whyfors of having a Freedom and Champions pvp league and not a Test league.... I remember Test and it was good. d;D |
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and just a month or so ago the server limit was somewhere around 20 people soooo 2 teams could be there and if anyone else wanted to watch or 2 other teams wanted to attempt to practice you couldn't get the people on to do it.
If that would be fixed and I19 beta wasn't soon to be around the corner then I would always recommend that leagues be done on test, because I think one of the reasons you don't get a huge influx of people to server ran ones is because some people just don't have the inf/time to trick out a toon to be competitive. This is easily alleviated on test since you can get them a good build, they could respec into it and then you can get them the IO's easily to finish it up. But with the way they have been doing the test server lately I can not see this happening for quite some time. and that is the sad truth.
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I'm not saying that PvP rewards lack value, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't exist. However, part of the reason that they were implemented was to try to lure in people who don't PvP on a regular basis, and I question whether this is a viable tactic.
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Originally Posted by Lolblaws
One could say the EXACT same thing about pve rewards and come of just as clueless. Just because pvp rewards haven't been implemented well in this game isn't evidence that they lack value for the playerbase...
But in this case you may be like talking to a wall. I don't mean that to be insulting, but you just proclaimed no interest in pvp and proclaimed that there is nothing that anyone could do to create interest in the activity. You bias is obscuring your viewpoint heavily. On the other hand some people are able to recognize that the game is composed of numerous small activities designed to specifically satisfy sub groups of players. Ideally they all intersect at certain points, but it isn't necessary for a healthy and productive gaming experience. |
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This is all theoretical. I'm basing my claims on evidence from the game. I've been on teams before where very few players were enhanced properly (or at all) and we had a difficult time getting through missions even at +0 difficulty. Enhancements are not superfluous on an average PuG team.|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
You can disagree all you like, but it doesn't change anything. If we accept that they are needed for solo'ing then we can then use that information to conclude that they are more than we need for teaming.
We can do this because spawns don't scale up as quickly as teams do. PC's by and large have a degree of forcemultiplication whereas very few NPC groups do. Because spawn size grows at the same rate (or less) to player additions (typically 2 or less new enemies are added to spawn size for each new player, which is equal to or less than /x1 solo size spawns) it is safe to conclude that PC teams gain power at a higher rate than NPC groups (this is intentional by the way). Therefore if SO's are needed to solo, then they provide more enhancement than is needed when teamed. |
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Originally Posted by Lolblaws
You're confused about what is being said. Take a look at the time frames being discussed as a direct result of the developer valuation put on pvp IO's... easy != obscene time investment.
Realistically obtainable in a reasonable amount of time given the reward is not an outlandish expectation or a demand for easily acquiring things is it? |
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Originally Posted by Lolblaws
It's irrelevant. The only thing we can say for certain is that pvp rewards are not given for performing good pvp practices where we define "good" as pvp'ing with the intent of winning.
As a painfully obvious result there will be disconnect between the rewards and player satisfaction with the process to earning them. Imagine if the most epic accomplishment badges in the game were earned by walking through city hall in atlas as opposed to doing things like MOSTF...well you probably can't imagine it because it is illogical and would be rejected by the player base. Welcome to the pvp reward system. |
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Originally Posted by Lolblaws
You seem to be confused again about what is being discussed in specific sections. Players have put a value on the pvp sourced pvp IO's sold on the market and off. However it is the devs putting a value relative to other rewards on pvp IO's via the A-merit system. Players have absolutely no influence over how many A-merits a pvp IO costs outside of persistent whining to get it looked at.
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They wanted more rares available, so they made them easy to buy with a-merits.
As they didn't make purples and PvP IOs easy to buy, the obvious conclusion is they didn't want them to be more available. They wanted another way for players to earn them without undermining their current scarcity.
Not sure why this is confusing to some.
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Well you have already stated that you do not PvP so anything you say about " good PvP practices" don't mean anything. Since you wouldn't know what any good PvP practices would be.
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Originally Posted by firespray
Sorry, but we apparently have different definitions of 'good' pvp practices. I don't consider picking on the weakest guy around to be 'good'. I consider that being a jerk and a bully, and the game should not reward that kind of behavior.
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I don't need to pvp to tell when someone is being a jerk.
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Originally Posted by Psyrene
Well you have already stated that you do not PvP so anything you say about " good PvP practices" don't mean anything. Since you wouldn't know what any good PvP practices would be.
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It may not be the most popular playstyle, but it is validated. Using your argument of "need" they could remove the ease of acquiring virtually everything in this game from SO's all the way down to TO's, but because you don't "need" them that would be ok.
Like I said, pretty ridiculous stance.
Sure, they've added purples and PVPIOs to the game, which has given us the ability to make uber-leet level 50s, but why does everyone seem to assume that just because something exists in the game, it should be readily available to anyone? Maybe they have 'validated' the mentality of uber 50s, but they've apparently also decided that you can't have one easily.