Quote:
You should probably calm down a bit, as reading Psy's post implies to me that he's talking about the sort of PvP where one tries to get as many kills as possible (or contribute to getting kills) without dying. Since you're actively trying to avoid death, you're actively trying to deny your opponent the reward they're after.|
Originally Posted by firespray
I don't need to pvp to tell when someone is being a jerk.
|
Now, using your own logic, denying rewards to another player is being a jerk, so the "proper" thing to do in a PvP scenario is to stand still and die while the other player attacks you so they get a chance at a drop.
If you think going after the easier kills, especially when there are drops tied to those kills, is "being a jerk," I'm not sure what to tell you.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
There is only one pvp goal in this game and it is achieved through kill count.
It's not mean or being a jerk to score the highest kill count through the most efficient means available.
Then again, I'm not really a fan of everyone getting trophies at events just because they participated and maybe you are? And I certainly wouldn't be in favor of it happening at 14 and over tournaments, which is roughly the age of what is supposed to be the youngest people playing this game.
Quote:
It seems as though you've allowed yourself to see the goal of an arena match and the goal of the entire PvP system as the same. |
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
There is only one pvp goal in this game and it is achieved through kill count.
It's not mean or being a jerk to score the highest kill count through the most efficient means available. |
I can't imagine one being that silly though.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Quote:
I dare you to explain how ANY of the activities that go on in the pvp zones are pvp related.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
It seems as though you've allowed yourself to see the goal of an arena match and the goal of the entire PvP system as the same.
I can't imagine one being that silly though. |
Shivs, Nukes, Hotspots, Turrets+Av's...
Those are ALL pve aspects tacked on to pvp because the developers have no clue how to design pvp.
Even if we pretend those zone activities are magically pvp based as opposed to pve based then you would STILL go after the weakest link in the ones that potentially involve some pvp interaction. For example you are going to attack the push over that is glowing as opposed to the glowing person surrounded by a bunch of team mates if you want to steal some shiv bits. Same goes for Missile code pieces.
PvP is by definition a competitive environment. Like any competition you find the weak point in your opposition and you take advantage of it. You aren't being a 'jerk' if your power forward is 6'6 going against a 5'9 defender. You capitalize on the opportunity until they are able to stop you.
You are a jerk if you keep tripping him when the ref isn't looking, just like if you tp people into geometry locks and stuff like that.
Not everyone gets to touch the ball...nor should they. Competition isn't for everyone though whether it be games, sports, work, or life. Some people are just better at not being good at anything.
Quote:
You want me to explain how activities that go on in a PVP ZONE are PVP related? Really? |
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
I dare you to explain how ANY of the activities that go on in the pvp zones are pvp related.
Shivs, Nukes, Hotspots, Turrets+Av's... Those are ALL pve aspects tacked on to pvp because the developers have no clue how to design pvp. |
I'm not a game developer so I have no clue as to whether they know what they're doing. Their game is over six years old and showing promise.... they stilll have their jobs... they still get my $15 bucks a month... so to me it's safe to say they aren't ******* things up that bad. I'm certain you could do it better.... but not really.
You spoke of the goal of PvP and how there is only one... specifically kill count. While very true in the arena, one's kill count in a zone isn't rewarded or recorded. One's defeat in a zone isn't debt'ed or a significant loss in any way. Therefore you cannot say that is the goal of PvP as a whole. A high kill count is simply an objective of many PvPers. The 'highest kill count' can be a goal in PvP... but as I already mentioned... only applies to arena where a match win is dependant on it.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Quote:
I see.
|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
I'm not a game developer so I have no clue as to whether they know what they're doing. Their game is over six years old and showing promise.... they stilll have their jobs...
|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
lol damn.|
Originally Posted by macskull
|
Well some of them still have their jobs...
nice one Mac.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Quote:
I think it is safe to say that the success of this game has had nothing to do with their blunders in pvp. Feel free to counter though.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
You want me to explain how activities that go on in a PVP ZONE are PVP related? Really?
I'm not a game developer so I have no clue as to whether they know what they're doing. Their game is over six years old and showing promise.... they stilll have their jobs... they still get my $15 bucks a month... so to me it's safe to say they aren't ******* things up that bad. I'm certain you could do it better.... but not really. |
Their pvp follies have been a long standing joke in the MMO world and if this game were larger would have started to inch up the "NGE" list in terms of the amount of fail on the developers behalf.
Quote:
| You spoke of the goal of PvP and how there is only one... specifically kill count. While very true in the arena, one's kill count in a zone isn't rewarded or recorded. One's defeat in a zone isn't debt'ed or a significant loss in any way. Therefore you cannot say that is the goal of PvP as a whole. A high kill count is simply an objective of many PvPers. The 'highest kill count' can be a goal in PvP... but as I already mentioned... only applies to arena where a match win is dependant on it. |
Those go hand in hand in the arena. In zone the latter takes precedence. In both cases you end up not cycling through all the targets and are very frequently bumping into the 5 min timer reset on rolling an IO.
Quote:
I don't think PvP was doomed to fail because it can be fun and the engine from what I understand wouldn't be that hard to make simple improvements to. I feel like the devs understand that and we all know they have to put off pvp because of the general population.|
Originally Posted by firespray
I wonder if PvP rewards was a system doomed to fail from the beginning (at least doomed to fail at bringing in more people). Personally, I'm not a fan of PvP. I never have been, and I probably never will be, both in this game and in others. I'm not going to PvP regardless of how good the rewards are, unless the game requires it (in which case I'm probably not going to be playing that game).
I've always kind of gotten the feeling that the people who like to PvP are going to do it regardless of the rewards, simply because they like to do it, and the people who don't like to are going to avoid it, also regardless of how good the rewards are. Sure, adding rewards to PvP is nice for the people who do it, but I'm not sure how successful it will ever be at bringing in the people who don't. |
It shouldn't be too hard to add rewards for reputation could we at least have feedback on that? It's been asked about for years if I remember correctly. You have a point that PvP rewards wouldn't bring anymore new players in if they didn't want to. In pve, IOs can be purchased alternative to random drops through merits from pve content. In pvp, pvp IOs can be purchase alternative to random drops through merits from pve content. Shouldn't we at least have a purchase alternative through PvP content? I hope that makes sense it's been a long day...
Quote:
I agree with Alkirin here. I still think more frequent and not crappy rewards would bring a good chunk of pve players over to learn the system.
|
Originally Posted by Alkirin
I'm only recently getting into PvP in this game, but I can say from experience in other games that a reward system done wrong is an easy way to ruin it.
So long as PvP is reasonably balanced and there is a place for factions to fight...People will gladly walk out and kick each other's ***** for the sake of it. I think there is an important element lost when PvP is rendered down to just a slightly more complex means of grinding for 'phat lewt'. |
Quote:
Another thing is how they decide the amount of merits per TF. The hardcore gamers who just know how to run the TFs got punished with the merits. Us villains only have a limited amount of TFs so we KNOW them like the back of our hands. We have gotten the time down to the minimum, and for this we get the least amount of merits. Hero side seems to be the more populated side, and with higher numbers, that means they have more noobs which makes some of their TFs take longer, so they get more merits than we do. Last time I did a Kahn TF I got 30, but the Cuda which is so much harder is only worth 20. For a change why don't we figure out how to reward people for being decent players?
|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Its because nothing in this game rewards skill. You can get a piece of one of the highest end gear from WoW every 2 weeks through Arena, and that's not even a grind after the first week because you only need 10 games after your ratings are already high. Everything in this game is GRINDAN repeatedly.
Yeah you can argue all MMO games eveutnally boil down to a grind but at least in some games skill is factored in some times as well. COX is 100% grinding. |
Quote:
Ya I figured they would have introduced tiers of pvp IO's just like they did in pve. That way you'd more frequently earn some sort of trinket.|
Originally Posted by Syndace
I agree with Alkirin here. I still think more frequent and not crappy rewards would bring a good chunk of pve players over to learn the system.
|
Such a system would allow them to do things like tripling the drop rate on your bounty target and tripling the drop rate while one side possess RV and it would actually result in a tangible difference. Cause right now the pve events that occur in pvp zones are beyond pointless from a pvp perspective.
That said, I don't think any reward system would help pull pve'ers into pvp anymore. Pre i13 where the two systems were essentially the same (just one was on speed and awesome) a solid reward system could have had the potential to get pve'ers away from static and mindless spawns. But the new ruleset is so divergent from pve that you really have to want to pvp in the first place to be willing to take on learning it. That greatly reduces the chance of pve to pvp conversions.
Quote:
It's not really that they are not EASY to get it's that they are almost impossible.. They are harder to get than PURPLES, and these recipies are ORANGE. |
Originally Posted by firespray
Eh, you kind of do. Or to put it more accurately, the difficulty level of the game is designed around you having SOs. If you had no enhancements whatsoever, things would be much more difficult for you. You don't NEED to have them, but the game assumes you do. This is not the case with IOs (of any sort)
It's not ridiculous at all. The difficulty level of the game is designed around players having SOs. The devs have stated this multiple times. SOs are very easily available. Sure, they've added purples and PVPIOs to the game, which has given us the ability to make uber-leet level 50s, but why does everyone seem to assume that just because something exists in the game, it should be readily available to anyone? Maybe they have 'validated' the mentality of uber 50s, but they've apparently also decided that you can't have one easily. |
Also, a lot of the PVP zones are lacking players, which means that these recipies do not drop very often, and when they do the really good ones are not put on the market. Now if this was like other games, and I am happy it is not, but if it were then only 1 of these recipies would be needed then it would be ok to make them super hard to get, but because it is set up for bonuses when you have more than 1, and with them being this hard to get how are people supposed to get the bonuses? I think a way to counter the problem of not really having people in PVP (besides dual boxing farmers, and the people who hunt them) is to maybe make an enemy class that is only in PVP zones. Make them purple bosses that are hard to kill, but drop PVP recipies. This keeps them rare, but not impossibly hard to get.
A merits are an awesome edition, but I think they went to the extreme when they decided on how many were needed to get certain recipies. Who in their right might is going to buy purples with them, and there are very few PVP recipies that I would buy with them, the +3 def is the only one I can think of, but that's just because they cost 2 bil, and there are NONE on the market.
Quote:
Why would it? It's a PvE game that introduced PvP content four issues after launch. I'm not really sure what you're gettting at. Would a Tire shop base it's success on the candy bars it decided to to start selling at the counter a year after openeing? |
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
I think it is safe to say that the success of this game has had nothing to do with their blunders in pvp. Feel free to counter though.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
Well now then you didn't read what I said. I said kill count AND continually seeking victory by killing the weakest links are the only goals in the pvp of this game.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
There is only one pvp goal in this game and it is achieved through kill count.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
In both cases you end up not cycling through all the targets and are very frequently bumping into the 5 min timer reset on rolling an IO.
|
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
I don't think it's going to break the game, but PVP being messed up did lose some subscriptions for them. I know a few people who left because their PVP toons were nerfed. The game won't die because of problems in PVP, but if PVP was fixed some of these people may come back, and the more people who pay to play, the longer we have our game. So fixing PVP couldn't hurt.
Quote:
A reward system? I don't think that the PvP IOs need to be tiered or anything. Better to start small...Something as small as badges/titles or even costume pieces, where they might not be the best solution, would be easier to implement and would draw an interest toward at least participating in PvP.|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
That said, I don't think any reward system would help pull pve'ers into pvp anymore. Pre i13 where the two systems were essentially the same (just one was on speed and awesome) a solid reward system could have had the potential to get pve'ers away from static and mindless spawns. But the new ruleset is so divergent from pve that you really have to want to pvp in the first place to be willing to take on learning it. That greatly reduces the chance of pve to pvp conversions.
|
The important thing about a reward system in PvP is that it needs to offer a reward that doesn't scale the strength of the toon. People who are at the top tier of PvP need to hold those positions within a community by merit of their skill - not because they gamed the system to farm the best gear and abuse a clear advantage as a result of it.
The rewards need to be something fun and light that reward players for participating without punishing or crippling people for losing, or for simply being new to it.
Additionally...The outlook of a few with respect to PvP should be reconsidered. This game wasn't sold on PvP, this game isn't supported by PvP, this game isn't going to die by PvP. Doomsaying over PvP is silly, and I doubt it will be taken seriously.
There -is- growth potential in this game's PvP, however. As far as faction conflict is concerned, CoX has a number of unique elements that can spawn serious growth if they are encouraged and developed. That is where the focus should be, I think.
Quote:
EXACTLY. Im so tired of people saying "this game is build around PvE". PvP was introduced in issue 4. That was YEARS AGO and they've made MANY changes to pvp since then. I know I'm not the only one here who has PvPd in this game for years. Why is everyone so negative when asking for PvP fixes? They are making changes.. they just can't do everything at once. That's why I suggested rewarding reputation. That can't be hard, even from a software engineering perspective.
|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Why would it? It's a PvE game that introduced PvP content four issues after launch. I'm not really sure what you're gettting at. Would a Tire shop base it's success on the candy bars it decided to to start selling at the counter a year after openeing?
|
Quote:
There are making changes like toning down the amount of unresisted damage Blasters dealt, or adding KB suppression to knockback powers, or adding cage suppression, and then there are making changes like heal decay, travel suppression, DR, and removal of mez protection. The key difference between the two sets of changes is the first set of changes are just tweaks to powers to promote balance without significantly altering the way the game plays, and the second set of changes is a mechanics changes that completely mess up the way the game plays and the interplay between individual powersets and archetypes.
|
Originally Posted by Syndace
They are making changes
|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
we have all accepted that you never will get it. i think it's about time for you to do the same or don't and just keep typing for our forum amusement.
|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
I'm not really sure what you're gettting at.
|
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
|
Hey, I bet Dahjee would make an AR/Ice Blaster with TP and Fly and attempt to convince people that it was one of the greatest toons ever.....
Quote:
and I agree with this 100%, he will just never get it.
| we have all accepted that you never will get it. |
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
Flatter me more with your ignorance please. (I'm not mad because I realize you are clueless)
oh and lrn2read better before you snippet. Context is your friend... or not.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
just continue tping people to zone ceilings because that really is the best thing you can do, I have killed you many times on your lol flying dom.
and like Optical Illusion said plz keep posting because it is most amusing.
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
Quote:
My Dom dies and it gets kills. It's provided billions worth of IOs for all my toons... you've died to my dom many times too... but it's ok if you didn't want to mention that part.|
Originally Posted by Psyrene
just continue tping people to zone ceilings because that really is the best thing you can do, I have killed you many times on your lol flying dom.
and like Optical Illusion said plz keep posting because it is most amusing. |
Funny thing is I don't even know who you are, but I can guess that... like the others who brag about getting a zone kill... you were on your psy/em at the time... and you aren't willing to say the name of the toon that did it.
Making things personal to save face and avoid any points I make is nothing new to me here... and doing so is a lot more obvious than you all might think.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Quote:
Your bad dom, has never killed any of my toons, tp'd them and dropped them but not ever killed by you and I have killed you on my psi/em, rad/psi def, cold/sonic def, and fire/em. |
Originally Posted by Dahjee
you've died to my dom many times too... but it's ok if you didn't want to mention that part.
|
and I don't brag about getting zone kills, zone PvP is lullz at best.
Want the names too, because you must memorize every toon that ever kills you (and that would be a lot) because you always want people to post their toon names even though there is this cool feature call renames...
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
inb4honor