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Originally Posted by Championess
I think the problem with Paragon Studios is that they don't realize that the PvP player base is so diverse. While I could care less about Vex because he comes off as an ***, he displays his bitterness in a different way, I'd include him on a discussion on a few things needed to be changed but I'd have my volume button keyed to come up quick just in case. The fact of the matter is that lots of people have some insight about how to make PvP better which "could" have helped this game. And then on that same token they might have some not so good ideas as they may not have played something enough to have full knowledge of certain aspects of the system they are championing to improve.
The PvE'rs have different demands much more tangible like costumes and emotes and other stuff whereas PvP'rs for the most part wanted something challenging but logical and thats why the ones mainly left are the ones that like the easy toons for PvP because some things make no sense as it is. PvP'rs are much harder to please and if the ones working on the system have no interest and play experience in the subject they want to change then it comes off real ugly. But PvP'rs for the most part could provide the most loyal customers because if they actually got the system right it would be so much more fun killing someones favorite toon for the billionth time than it is to kill Statesman for the billionth time, and getting killed for the billionth time I would hope that would inspire them to devote more time to the game to get better (unless you're divine). The problem is that Paragons filter broke when dealing with the resounding criticisms of most of the implementations back with i13. Things were busted about the old PvP sure so a change could have been necessary but the problem is the filter broke and their calm got damaged when they are the ones that should be soliciting ideas for the betterment of their business, not turning their backs on what now would amount to a rather large portion of customers and continuing to sweep the dead bodies under the rug. |
THe problem is they made a commitment to pvp in print including all issues going forward from i13 and promised to change things that didn't work, fix what was broken and renew focus on it. It's ego plain and simple that leaves us stuck with i13. The developers refuse to acknowledge it was a total failure, refuse to change it and continue to beleive they know better than we do.
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heh that sounds funny. Is there more info about that event anywhere?
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Originally Posted by B_Witched
The last time a dev showed up in game for pvp annouced they got so badly trashed several people got temp bans, and then we were scolded and told "this is why they don't care about pvp". We forgot to worship them.
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I was in RV on Freedom when Lighthouse made his last visit with his Elec Brute named Darkhouse. He was even invited to the team I was on. It was funny see a tidal wave of heroes jump on him everytime. It was after he made that statement about PvP that cause him to leave CoH. It is nice to see a Mod, Dev, or whatever in the PvP zone and show the support for the PvP community. We are a small group compared to the PvE community and I hope they are doing something to increase our numbers.
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At the I19 panel the other day they did mention that they'd look at PvP once the Incarnate slots were rolled out so they could see what effect they were having on PvP.|
Originally Posted by Big_Soto
I was in RV on Freedom when Lighthouse made his last visit with his Elec Brute named Darkhouse. He was even invited to the team I was on. It was funny see a tidal wave of heroes jump on him everytime. It was after he made that statement about PvP that cause him to leave CoH. It is nice to see a Mod, Dev, or whatever in the PvP zone and show the support for the PvP community. We are a small group compared to the PvE community and I hope they are doing something to increase our numbers.
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War Witch also said she didn't want to promise anything until it was "95% done", to avoid complaints if something she said they were working on turned out to be too hard to actually do.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
It was actually a less evasive answer than I expected. I thought the question would be dismissed.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
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There were too many cameras there - Black Pebble had to radio to his elite ninja snipers to hold fire.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
after i20 can mean i21 but it can also mean i34. dont hold your breath
If they're still going with the idea of 10 Incarnate slots rolled out over several Issues, then it could be a while before they have enough data to decide what changes they need to make to PvP to balance it for Incarnates.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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They could remove TS(or return to pve TS)+HD from zones and add some of the requested options to arena until they figure out what they are going to do. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If they're still going with the idea of 10 Incarnate slots rolled out over several Issues, then it could be a while before they have enough data to decide what changes they need to make to PvP to balance it for Incarnates.
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etc
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And thats the problem right there, they will make something, not accepting input from the players, spring it on everyone i one huge pack, instead of a bunch of tiny ones, that could be tested, one at a time and refuse to pull any of it back. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
War Witch also said she didn't want to promise anything until it was "95% done", to avoid complaints if something she said they were working on turned out to be too hard to actually do.
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Incarnas effect on pvp? lol, seriously? How about the lack of people pvping effect on pvp?
I honestly dont think the "Casual pvpers" (Who cares about the 50 or so that actually just play this game for pvp, they will be gone soon enough) are too worried about the effects of the Incarna slots. So what if they get perma moment of glory, on their effectivly level 55 kat regens. That just makes them more manly.
Tychians
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That's a cop out answer to placate people at a live event. As others have said the system is going to be put in piece by piece over several issues, so we'll have to wait until its mostly complete to see some changes? That doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't it be more logical to simply balance it as it's released instead of waiting and having to re-balance the whole system.... Because that worked so well the last time.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
At the I19 panel the other day they did mention that they'd look at PvP once the Incarnate slots were rolled out so they could see what effect they were having on PvP.
War Witch also said she didn't want to promise anything until it was "95% done", to avoid complaints if something she said they were working on turned out to be too hard to actually do. |
WW doesn't care about the effect the incarnate system is going to have on pvp. If any developer cared about the effect changes would have on pvp, the system we're currently playing wouldn't exist in its current form. Either it wouldn't have gone through in the first place, or we would've seen some changes by now.
The incarnate system is no different then adding a new powerset or archetype. PvPers will sort through it in a few days and determine what the most effective additions to their character will be, after 2 weeks or so fotms will be established, and business goes on as usual. This is nothing new, it's been like this as far back as I can remember. It's not hard to predict. It wasn't rocket science until DR curves were introduced.
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Remove DR, Remove TS, remove HD; keep shields to where they currently are. Roll back to when Blasters actually dished out a significant amount of damage yet were called "Glass Canons" for a reason. Rework mez. |
Originally Posted by Terror1
They could remove TS(or return to pve TS)+HD from zones and add some of the requested options to arena until they figure out what they are going to do.
etc |
None of this will ever happen. It's best to move on if you seriously want a game where the developers care about the pvp community.
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uhhhh no to the removal of DR
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
Remove DR, Remove TS, remove HD; keep shields to where they currently are. Roll back to when Blasters actually dished out a significant amount of damage yet were called "Glass Canons" for a reason. Rework mez.
None of this will ever happen. It's best to move on if you seriously want a game where the developers care about the pvp community. |
The concept of DR isn't bad, but it absolutely wrecks the usefulness of most buffers, which is why it needs to go or be heavily reworked.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Yes, I realize if the devs were JUST to remove DR it would screw up shield scaling of the inherent and patron pool shields among other things. But the current implementation of DR is utter crap. |
Originally Posted by macskull
The concept of DR isn't bad, but it absolutely wrecks the usefulness of most buffers, which is why it needs to go or be heavily reworked.
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I'd like to get my mezs back, I'd like them to bring back the speed cap and allow slows to slow, debuffs to debuff and ATs like trollers to once again have a purpose other than a buff bot in arena matches.
Like I said, won't happen; because the pvp community hurt a devs feelings.
I'm venting... mornin'
Hi. PvE player here, and I'd like to finally give some input.
I dabbled in PvP for awhile after i6, but since most of my friends were strictly PvE, I soon lost interest. I tried PvP for the first time since i13 a couple of weeks ago.
It was pure confusion. My powers didn't work at all the same, and I had absolutely no idea what was effective and what wasn't. Before, I'd get slammed by people with more PvP experience, but at least I could expect things to work very similarly to PvE. Even fighting NPC's in the zone was an excersize in frustration.
If the i13 changes were to make this more PvE friendly/accessible, then the goal was not achieved. I'd like to PvP again, but what I experienced wasn't nearly as fun as I remembered.
My n00blet ideas*:
- There should be some mechanic that encourages (but not forces!) team play, that way you don't have to neuter mezzes/heals, and other nonsense. Everything can get spread out just like in PvE.
- Have powers work exactly the same as PvE (maybe shorter duration on select powers).
- Boost everyone's base HP to the same number. Lack of mez protection, DEF, and RES will take care of balancing the rest.
- Optional "Hardcore" zones? The super min/maxers can duke it out there for bragging rights, or stalk SO users in the regular zone. Significantly Boost rep/PvP drops (or something) in the Hardcore zone.
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The bad pvp mechanics have decimated the pvp population. People who pvp regularly are spread across 3 or 4 servers, into 2 pvp zones. With numbers probably less than 250, splitting the population even more is not a good idea. Consolidation would be a much better option. Making pvp more friendly to lesser equipped/experienced players is a noble cause, but could be more aptly handled by a better introduction to how the system works, fixing the system, or working on archetype/powerset balance issues.
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
Optional "Hardcore" zones? The super min/maxers can duke it out there for bragging rights, or stalk SO users in the regular zone. Significantly Boost rep/PvP drops (or something) in the Hardcore zone.
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No, this is one place where your build can actually make a difference. Do you build for max hp, or something else, this is a choice that the players should make, not have everyone have tanker hp, if that would be the case then what would be the advantage to playing something like a tank or brute or taking the time to max builld a toon for max hp..... this IMO is just a bad idea.
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
[*]Boost everyone's base HP to the same number. Lack of mez protection, DEF, and RES will take care of balancing the rest.
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OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
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I said base HP. All +HPMax bonuses would still apply. I can accept that this still may be a bad idea, but I want it shot down for the right things!|
Originally Posted by Psyrene
No, this is one place where your build can actually make a difference. Do you build for max hp, or something else, this is a choice that the players should make, not have everyone have tanker hp, if that would be the case then what would be the advantage to playing something like a tank or brute or taking the time to max builld a toon for max hp..... this IMO is just a bad idea.
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It's the only thing I could think of that can "level the field" (which seems to be the dev's intent) that doesn't gut the effectiveness of mezzes/secondary effects.
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Maybe some sort of small buff that increases slightly with the team size?
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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A Tank shouldn't have the same base HP as a MM.
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
I said base HP. All +HPMax bonuses would still apply. I can accept that this still may be a bad idea, but I want it shot down for the right things!
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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but it guts the effectiveness of a tank/brute, whose job is mostly to be a taunt bot and be able to take lots of damage or having a blaster that has 3200 hp and can just sit and spam damage and not have to worry about getting killed because he has soooo muc health is just as dUmb. So yeah base hp being the same for all AT's is a bad idea.
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
I said base HP. All +HPMax bonuses would still apply. I can accept that this still may be a bad idea, but I want it shot down for the right things!
It's the only thing I could think of that can "level the field" (which seems to be the dev's intent) that doesn't gut the effectiveness of mezzes/secondary effects. |
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
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Fair enough. I was counting on meleers having shields to give them the edge, but I will concede to your point due to having such limited PvP experience. I'm glad you have a point, by the way. Much better than a blanket, vapid, unexplained one-liner that adds nothing at all to the discussion.|
Originally Posted by Psyrene
but it guts the effectiveness of a tank/brute, whose job is mostly to be a taunt bot and be able to take lots of damage or having a blaster that has 3200 hp and can just sit and spam damage and not have to worry about getting killed because he has soooo muc health is just as dUmb. So yeah base hp being the same for all AT's is a bad idea.
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My bad ideas aside, I want to repeat that I'm a PvE'er, and I understand some of PvP's pain now. The i13 changes certainly didn't make it fun for me. Hang in there, guys.
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No. |
Originally Posted by Gehnen
i13 changes certainly didn't make it fun for me. Hang in there, guys...
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many of us plan to leave the moment another MMO with a decent pvp system comes around. CoH developers have already made it perfectly clear that there is not enough incentive to take another look at pvp; despite promising the community to do just that.
It's time to move on.
The PvE'rs have different demands much more tangible like costumes and emotes and other stuff whereas PvP'rs for the most part wanted something challenging but logical and thats why the ones mainly left are the ones that like the easy toons for PvP because some things make no sense as it is. PvP'rs are much harder to please and if the ones working on the system have no interest and play experience in the subject they want to change then it comes off real ugly. But PvP'rs for the most part could provide the most loyal customers because if they actually got the system right it would be so much more fun killing someones favorite toon for the billionth time than it is to kill Statesman for the billionth time, and getting killed for the billionth time I would hope that would inspire them to devote more time to the game to get better (unless you're divine).
The problem is that Paragons filter broke when dealing with the resounding criticisms of most of the implementations back with i13. Things were busted about the old PvP sure so a change could have been necessary but the problem is the filter broke and their calm got damaged when they are the ones that should be soliciting ideas for the betterment of their business, not turning their backs on what now would amount to a rather large portion of customers and continuing to sweep the dead bodies under the rug.