City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

So, if Fitness becomes inherent...

Amy_Amp

By Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2010-09-21 03:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primal View Post
The idea of a Ranged/Support pool for meleers (or anyone really) sounds good, but not at the expense of locking out Fighting to ranged types.
Well like I said, I knew it would be an unpopular idea. I just find Melee/Defense ATs taking more Melee and Defense powers to be redundant and boring, and I worry they may replace Fitness as "must have" for a lot of players.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
A couple changes I would like (but I realize many wouldn't) is to buff the Leadership Pool, but make it Ally-only
I wouldn't complain about Leadership buffs, I use it all the time (and my Fortunata has all three Leadership toggles twice). RO would get even more ridiculous than before, too

But changing the Leadership toggles from teammate-only to ally-only doesn't make a very big difference. Maybe in the Rikti and Hami raids, and a few GM fights (Lusca comes to mind as common for multiple teams, and of course the Winter Lord), but beyond that it seems like a pointless change.

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
But changing the Leadership toggles from teammate-only to ally-only doesn't make a very big difference.
The way I was understanding it, they meant that Leadership powers would no longer self-target (like Grant Cover from Shield Defense), which I would call a fairly significant difference.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Ouch, yeah that would be a significant difference, and it would ruin some builds. I assumed "ally only" meant that in the sense as it already exists in the game: affects players and pets allied with you, but not necessarily on your team.

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
Ouch, yeah that would be a significant difference, and it would ruin some builds.
It would really be a kick in the tenders if it carried over to VEATs' powers as well. But I can't say I'd be wholly surprised if it was something that happened to the Pool powers.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
I'd like to see the Power Pools revamped as well, and made customizable.

A couple changes I would like (but I realize many wouldn't) is to buff the Leadership Pool, but make it Ally-only, and make the Fighting Pool available to non-Melee ATs only. Melee ATs would have access to a new Pool that would have ranged and maybe support abilties.
What a horrible idea in a thread generally full of good ones.

 

Posted

I'd like to see them drop all the pools and make just one giant pool eliminating the need for prerequisite powers altogether. And then make any pool power available at any level.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
Well like I said, I knew it would be an unpopular idea. I just find Melee/Defense ATs taking more Melee and Defense powers to be redundant and boring, and I worry they may replace Fitness as "must have" for a lot of players.
Boring maybe (well actually yes - I know I sometimes drop a more interesting power for Tough or Weave) but redundent no.

On ATs that are meant to survive incoming damage through defence boosting that effectiveness is never redundent.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
I'd like to see the Power Pools revamped as well, and made customizable.

A couple changes I would like (but I realize many wouldn't) is to buff the Leadership Pool, but make it Ally-only, and make the Fighting Pool available to non-Melee ATs only. Melee ATs would have access to a new Pool that would have ranged and maybe support abilties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
Well like I said, I knew it would be an unpopular idea. I just find Melee/Defense ATs taking more Melee and Defense powers to be redundant and boring, and I worry they may replace Fitness as "must have" for a lot of players.
Uh... no thanks. Seriously, no freaking thanks.

Some powersets like /regen have very little in the way of defense and resistance, and few opportunities to slot those sets. Taking the Fighting pool is a good way to supply those things, it's not necessarily stacking anything.

And making the Leadership pool ally-only and excluding the self? Boy, gee, thanks. Take away the few self-buffing powers my poor Empath has? Wow, no thanks. That might be an okay move for people who only team, but for folks who solo or duo through the game, that would suck rocks for no discernible benefit.

We don't need to NERF anything else just because we're getting Fitness inherent :-/

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
We don't need to NERF anything else just because we're getting Fitness inherent :-/
A++

 

Posted

I just really hope we'll get power pool customization... some time soon.
*I think any work on pools, readjusting pools, adding pools, swimming in pools... should all wait until after we get (at least) rudimentary power pool customization.

* unless, of course, that work would not interfere and whatnot (I just know they need to figure out how to do a UI for players to customize power pools... along with then all the coding to make the power customizable... and then all the new animations and effects. So, it seems to take up many departments).

With the inherent Fitness concept coming soon... I have wondered about more choices for optional inherent abilities/powers at character's start.
Small inherent bonuses, buffs, powers, traits. More of flavor with some slight numbers/gameplay mechanics with them.
It could be a cool addition (But also could become a bit silly and make it a bit too easy to achieve certain numbers and stuff).

Not anything I desperately want to see though.

All I really want is power pool (And Epic Pools [and Ancillary Pools]) customization.

I don't see the inherent Fitness announcement as indicating that we might see any new power pools any time soon though.
(Not that we won't, I just don't think so)

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
I see what you're saying but the trouble is if their cost is reduced then the world and his dog takes them and the game gets even easier.
I've been speculating on what the player base will crown as the new "you must have this or you're gimped" powers. The Leadership pool is one possibility.

Most likely, I think, is Hasten, which is already common anyway.

I also think there's a strong possibility that people will come to expect Superspeed and Stealth, which would stack to full invisibility, on anyone joining a Task Force, to facilitate speed runs. (This will also contribute to something I can't stand- running ahead to the end of the mission without telling anyone and/or wiping out all the enemies before the non-speedsters get there.)

I think it's a bit naiive to believe that we'll see more build variety, though. Years of experience have shown that people won't go for variety when optimum performance (even if it isn't that much better than average) requires something specific.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olantern View Post
I've been speculating on what the player base will crown as the new "you must have this or you're gimped" powers. The Leadership pool is one possibility.

Most likely, I think, is Hasten, which is already common anyway.

I also think there's a strong possibility that people will come to expect Superspeed and Stealth, which would stack to full invisibility, on anyone joining a Task Force, to facilitate speed runs. (This will also contribute to something I can't stand- running ahead to the end of the mission without telling anyone and/or wiping out all the enemies before the non-speedsters get there.)

I think it's a bit naiive to believe that we'll see more build variety, though. Years of experience have shown that people won't go for variety when optimum performance (even if it isn't that much better than average) requires something specific.
See, I disagree with that. While people that don't take Stamina are more likely than not a minority, I'd wager that the balance of those who take and don't take Hasten would be fairly even. Same as Leadership pool, fighting pool, etc.

Stamina is a 'take it for your own sake' power. To basically stop your endurance from sucking, period. With exceptions being Regen, Willpower or Empaths. While people may take certain powers for concept, most will still take Stamina simply to avoid the PITA that is running out of endurance every other damn fight.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSorrow View Post
Medicine - in most cases inspirations are better than this power pool. Aid Other has such a short range and small heal that it's virtually useless. Stimulant's duration and range are also too short. In most cases Respites > Aid Self because either you have so much mitigation you rarely need it or you're being hit with so many things you wouldn't have a chance of pulling Aid Self off. Inspiration combining for Wakies > Resuscitate.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
I've got 2 scrappers who tank for their groups who have the Presence taunt because it's an AoE rather than a single like the scrapper taunt.
my main ma/sr scrapper did also, i used the ranged fear to hold sappers before running in and stomping them, with the newly freed up space, might go back and do it again, i rather liked the aoe fear.

 

Posted

Here was a thought I had...

First they make Fitness inherent.

Next they come up with something like...Tough Inherent.

Passive Resist (S/L)
Passive Resist (F/C/E/N)
Passive Defense (All)
Passive Mez Protection (Mag 3-6 to Hold, Immobilize, Stun, maybe KB)

The catch? You can only have one or the other.

Then they come out with the Damage Inherent

Passive +DMG
Passive +Chance for Damage
Passive +RCH
Passive Additional Damage of another type!

Basically, they come up with a selection of Inherent Pools. You can only have one!

Most would likely stick with Fitness, but I think I could see some seriously considering the others.

First they give you inherent free, then they tempt you away with other choices!

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Posted

What you're describing, Brand, is a Feats system.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
Some powersets like /regen have very little in the way of defense and resistance, and few opportunities to slot those sets. Taking the Fighting pool is a good way to supply those things, it's not necessarily stacking anything.
That's actually one of my reasons behind my idea for seperate pools for Melee and non-Melee- defense sets could then be balanced on their own merit, there's no need to worry about how the set performs once Tough and Weave are added on top.

I'm not actually calling for a nerf, only that characters who already have entire powersets devoted to melee and defense powers shouldn't feel the need to take even more melee and defense powers. I think that's boring, but again, I realize not many will agree.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
I'm not actually calling for a nerf, only that characters who already have entire powersets devoted to melee and defense powers shouldn't feel the need to take even more melee and defense powers. I think that's boring, but again, I realize not many will agree.
I sort of agree in that I've always thought Tough and Weave should offer far greater benefit to the soft targets than the hard. To me, a Tanker needing to take Tough/Weave is as ridiculous a notion as Superman wearing a kevlar vest.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

tell that to my fire/fire tank....

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I sort of agree in that I've always thought Tough and Weave should offer far greater benefit to the soft targets than the hard. To me, a Tanker needing to take Tough/Weave is as ridiculous a notion as Superman wearing a kevlar vest.
The vest stops kyrptonite bullets from entering the skin.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I sort of agree in that I've always thought Tough and Weave should offer far greater benefit to the soft targets than the hard. To me, a Tanker needing to take Tough/Weave is as ridiculous a notion as Superman wearing a kevlar vest.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LISAR View Post
The vest stops kyrptonite bullets from entering the skin.
A very limited application, and thus Superman gets far less benefit from wearing such a vest than a squishier person. Especially given that under the force of any given threats other than Kryptonite bullets that he regularly faces, the vest would get destroyed being relatively worthless compared to his Invulnerability. The best way to replicate such an effect in game would be a Defense/Resistance bonus that doesn't stack - thus you get no benefit if your defenses are already better, but it might help you against that Kryptonite bullet for which you have little-to-no defense.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaSteve21885 View Post
tell that to my fire/fire tank....
If your Fire/Fire tank *needs* Tough/Weave, I'd call that a problem with either the build or the Tanker primary in question. Likely the latter, judging from the general grumbling I've seen surrounding it.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
See, I disagree with that. While people that don't take Stamina are more likely than not a minority, I'd wager that the balance of those who take and don't take Hasten would be fairly even. Same as Leadership pool, fighting pool, etc.

Stamina is a 'take it for your own sake' power. To basically stop your endurance from sucking, period. With exceptions being Regen, Willpower or Empaths. While people may take certain powers for concept, most will still take Stamina simply to avoid the PITA that is running out of endurance every other damn fight.

I'd tend to agree with this. Most builds NEED Stamina - and getting to Stamina is a PITA in itself. There's at least 2 powers most just don't want to take just to get there.

Most other pools are pretty optional, even the travel powers these days, but fitness is about the only definite requisite unless you've got serious End mitigation.

From my own experience I have taken hasten on about 1/3 of my toons - but it's by no means universal. Some pools I've never taken in over 4 years and probably around 100 toons - so from one point of view this is a very good move. From another, well, we'll see how the manage it.

As for the comments about "Optimal Builds" - I've been playing long enough to know that there's no such thing: We get a new and different optimal build every month - it's down to perception. People will have more opportunity to experiment but that's all - especially if we get a new pool set to replace.


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