Fire Melee:Swords?
By
Adetos,
Posted on: 2010-09-14 06:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Yep, its bothered me since day one too.
It came up a lot in the recent thread where Castle asked which powers we'd like to have alternate animations for, so here's hoping we get exactly that sometime soon.
You just landed on the one reason I won't play Fire Scrappers. Maybe one day I'll come up with a concept for all the fire swords. Til then it's just immersion breaking for me.
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It looks like Castle may already be working on this. See this thread:
Question: What powers do you want Alternate animations for?
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The only problem with it is the fact that the Fire Sword powers (Fire Sword, Fire Sword Circle, and Greater Fire Sword) are all part fire damage and part lethal damage. |
Originally Posted by MagusJoseph
Perhaps some new animation options would be in order? I think that'd be awesome! |
If you were to offer an alternate animation for the sword powers, you'd either have damage types not matching up with the animation, or you'd have a superior attack by using a different animation (because lethal is much more frequently resisted than fire, pure fire damage will do more damage on average)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
You could just skip the fire sword attacks, with the exception of Fire Sword Circle, and still have an awesome attack chain with just Scorch, Cremate and Incinerate. You really give up very little DPS at all by doing so. That's one of the things that is great about Fire Melee.
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They can maybe make the animations some sort of swipe animation which may suit the Fire/Lethal damage combo rather than an alternative punch animation. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The only problem with it is the fact that the Fire Sword powers (Fire Sword, Fire Sword Circle, and Greater Fire Sword) are all part fire damage and part lethal damage.
If you were to offer an alternate animation for the sword powers, you'd either have damage types not matching up with the animation, or you'd have a superior attack by using a different animation (because lethal is much more frequently resisted than fire, pure fire damage will do more damage on average) |
Plus you can have the Foot Stomp power without actually using your foot now so there is some precedent about how powers don't actually have to match the animation.
Edit - I actually quite like the fire sword animations and think it would be cool if they made sword options for the Fire and Ice Melee sets as well as non-sword options
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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I'd actually like to see them do a set of fire melee animations that use only the swords, and another set that doesn't use the swords at all. Sometimes I like the swords, and other times I don't.
The fact that I wasn't using a sword but still did a combo of fire/lethal damage wouldn't bother me at all.
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The difference there is that stomping the ground with your foot and punching the ground will both deal smashing damage. Both animations make sense for the type of damage dealt by the power. Also, the name of the power changes when you choose the alternate animation for it, so you're not using a power called Foot Stomp and not actually stomping. |
Originally Posted by Tired Angel
Plus you can have the Foot Stomp power without actually using your foot now so there is some precedent about how powers don't actually have to match the animation. |
We didn't get any kind of kali sticks or twin clubs for dual blades for the reason that the weapons used wouldn't match the damage type, so any alternate animation for the elemental sword powers would have to make sense for the damage type dealt or we won't get it.
I don't personally have an issue with alternate animations for Fiery Melee (or Ice for that matter), I was just mentioning what I saw to be a problem with it.
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| The fact that I wasn't using a sword but still did a combo of fire/lethal damage wouldn't bother me at all. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yeah, that was going to be my reply. Fire Sword would still have to be LETHAL, although it doesn't necessarily have to be a sword. Slashing or firing "fire bullets" into a foe, though, might be an alternate possibility.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The difference there is that stomping the ground with your foot and punching the ground will both deal smashing damage. Both animations make sense for the type of damage dealt by the power.
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| Also, the name of the power changes when you choose the alternate animation for it, so you're not using a power called Foot Stomp and not actually stomping. |
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| We didn't get any kind of kali sticks or twin clubs for dual blades for the reason that the weapons used wouldn't match the damage type, so any alternate animation for the elemental sword powers would have to make sense for the damage type dealt or we won't get it. |
The above suggests the "other side" of the argument, though. If you want to have a flaming sword, or an ice sword, what do you do, go to Broadsword? But a Broadsword attack HAS NO FIRE COMPONENT. Even if you put a fiery aura around it or make it out of fire, it will still do only lethal damage. It will not do DoT, either. It will be a "fire sword" in appearance only.
This was decided back in Beta. The Fire, Ice and Stone sets were given a selection of "pure" powers, in which you just used the element directly, and then some "weapon" powers, so you could have a weapon of that element. Honestly, I don't think there was enough variety in the selection, Fire has a sword and Stone a hammer (mace) but Ice also used a sword. I thought perhaps Ice should be a spear or a spiked mace. (i.e., icicles)
I'm hoping with customizable animations that can change. Fire Sword and Ice Sword can provide an axe, spear or other type of lethal weapon, while Stone Mallet can be more mace-like, or a rough-hewn club. And if you can customize the type of weapon, perhaps you can remove it altogether, or make it something more subtle. (like Fire Claws or Ice Spines)
I'd also like to see Shadow Maul replaced with a club option (the DoT can be you drawing life force out of the foe to make the club to hit him with) and Firey Assault given back its sword, even if the animation time has to be changed to fit one of the other attacks.
I'd also like an Energy Sword, although none of the attacks in Energy Melee or Kinetic Melee would work since none of them are lethal. My Blaster's Fire Sword, though, was in her original concept supposed to be an energy sword. (I kind of got around that by claiming the Fire Sword is an energy field containing plasma)
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Call it "fire slash, sweep your empty hand through the air and have a thin arc of fire trail. Could be cool.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Yeah, that was going to be my reply. Fire Sword would still have to be LETHAL, although it doesn't necessarily have to be a sword. Slashing or firing "fire bullets" into a foe, though, might be an alternate possibility.
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Or punch with spears of fire surrounding your hand and piercing the target a little like impale's/archery's spines/arrows do but only melee range.
fire claw
flame spike: punch and a pointy cone of fire forms along your arm, transfers to the target and explodes leaving the burning bits on the ground around them.
This is really easy folks, there are a million ways to do pointy or sharp flame animations.
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| The above suggests the "other side" of the argument, though. If you want to have a flaming sword, or an ice sword, what do you do, go to Broadsword? But a Broadsword attack HAS NO FIRE COMPONENT. Even if you put a fiery aura around it or make it out of fire, it will still do only lethal damage. It will not to DoT, either. It will be a "fire sword" in appearance only. |
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Well, I thought of procs, but discarded that because a) you have to get the proc and b) unless the attack itself is minor damage, the percentage value of the proc is low compared to a "true" elemental attack. Fire Sword and Ice Sword are MORE than 50% elemental damage. And I would personally expect the damage to be at least 33% elemental before I called it a "fire sword". |
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
MY dual blade/fire armor character would like to disagree with you. Read the changes on fiery embrace. Also, check the Armageddon Proc.
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The basic idea is that the base damage of the Power Set does not include Fire Damage. Assuming you could put a Chance to Energy Damage Proc in Fire Melee, that wouldn't make it Energy Melee. It still does primarily Fire and Lethal damage.
Now, it is certainly a good conceptual idea to combine a fire aura on a weapon with a fire Proc (or Fiery Embrace) and call that a fire sword, though. Except that as far as I know, it is not currently possible to put an aura on a Broadsword or any other weapon model. Some of the weapon models have auras, but a "fire sword" would have to be a selectable option. I don't believe Fiery Embrace gives any kind of visual cue that it adds fire damage to attacks, either. (There are the typical red icons around your character, but your sword or fists don't burst into flame, do they?)
Nick some of Dark Melees moves but just add a fire graphic and dont worry about the lethal side as fire is lethal anyway.
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Well, "Lethal" in the CoH sense seems to be what in D&D is called "Piercing" or "Slashing". "Smashing" is the remaining type, "Bludgeoning". |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Nick some of Dark Melees moves but just add a fire graphic and dont worry about the lethal side as fire is lethal anyway.
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"Lethal" does not mean "it'll kill ya". Fire, being frozen, or having your life force sucked out of you will kill you, but that's not called Lethal, that's called Fire, Cold, and Negative Energy respectively. Lethal, like Smashing, is a purely physical type of damage.
Most armors resist both equally, which kind of misses the point. However, Clockworks are vulnerable to Smashing but not Lethal. The idea is pinpoint damage can't hurt anything significant, but smashing them breaks them apart. Zombies, on the other hand, tend to be vulnerable to lethal and fire. (Vahzilok zombies are actually resistant to smashing, while Banished Pantheon zombies are not resistant, but vulnerable to lethal and fire as noted)
I suppose the argument can be made that you are "burning through" armor instead of smashing it, and so Fire would work as Lethal. It is interesting that zombies would be vulnerable to both. However, Ice makes more sense as Lethal to me, as icicles clearly are capable of piercing. I could see fire as slashing or leaving a "fire trail" to indicate the Lethal damage, though.
If you hit with your fists, though, as with Cremate, that is Smashing damage. I would expect a Lethal fire attack to somehow inject into the foe, like jets of flame or something. Like with Incinerate.
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Would the fact that you were using a sword (potentially) and doing pure fire damage with no lethal component bother you? It wouldn't bother me, I've felt that Fiery Melee should have sword and no-sword animation options for every power. Well, almost every power - I don't think Fire Breath needs a sword option.
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Originally Posted by firespray
I'd actually like to see them do a set of fire melee animations that use only the swords, and another set that doesn't use the swords at all. Sometimes I like the swords, and other times I don't.
The fact that I wasn't using a sword but still did a combo of fire/lethal damage wouldn't bother me at all. |
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No, that wouldn't bother me either. In fact, it would actually be preferable, since fire damage is less heavily resisted than lethal.|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Would the fact that you were using a sword (potentially) and doing pure fire damage with no lethal component bother you? It wouldn't bother me, I've felt that Fiery Melee should have sword and no-sword animation options for every power. Well, almost every power - I don't think Fire Breath needs a sword option.
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Another option here would be to simply switch the lethal damage in the sword attacks to smashing damage if they gave a non-sword option for all of the attacks in fiery melee. Since the two are resisted about equally in the game, I don't think it would really make much of a difference to the set, and it would keep the damage thematically appropriate, since that might matter to some people.
The damage type doesn't really matter to me.
If there was an alternate animation for Fire Sword Circle that didn't involve a sword (say a Fiery footstomp) and it did some lethal damage instead of pure fire despite not having anything sharp in its animation, so what?
Robots for example may seem to be a bit more fireproof than they should be if you're scrutinising your combat log, but you're still heating them up and making them fall over.
Its preferable and far less immersion breaking to what we currently have. The icon will still show "Fire Sword Circle" when you mouse over it, it will still do lethal damage, but at least you wont be materialising a giant flaming sword out of thin air every time you use it.
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Armageddon does over 100 fire damage when the proc fires (every third attack). Even a "normal" proc does 76.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, I thought of procs, but discarded that because a) you have to get the proc and b) unless the attack itself is minor damage, the percentage value of the proc is low compared to a "true" elemental attack. Fire Sword and Ice Sword are MORE than 50% elemental damage. And I would personally expect the damage to be at least 33% elemental before I called it a "fire sword".
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| The basic idea is that the base damage of the Power Set does not include Fire Damage. Assuming you could put a Chance to Energy Damage Proc in Fire Melee, that wouldn't make it Energy Melee. It still does primarily Fire and Lethal damage. |
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| Except that as far as I know, it is not currently possible to put an aura on a Broadsword or any other weapon model. Some of the weapon models have auras, but a "fire sword" would have to be a selectable option. I don't believe Fiery Embrace gives any kind of visual cue that it adds fire damage to attacks, either. (There are the typical red icons around your character, but your sword or fists don't burst into flame, do they?) |
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I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Just a quick chime in:
I certainly, most definitely, and enthusiastically support the option to not wield a sword as Fire Melee. I chose to play a hero based on a mythological character who I CAN imagine wielding fire as weapon, but cannot imagine with a sword. Would be nice to not have to skip over those juicy "sword" powers just to please the aesthete monkey on my back.
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The only animation I like is the fire sword. I'd like them see them replace the all the bare-handed animations with fire sword.
I agree with DrMike2000, Is Cremate (2 handed smash like Air-superiority) flagged as fire/lethal or fire/smash? Does it matter? And if this is the best arguement that can be come up with to stiffle adding alternative animation, then I think it should end.
1. Replace fire sword with left/right uppercuts like the Balista class Longbow (let nerd-rage insue about typed damage)
2. FSC - whirling hands animation
3. Replace GFS with the behemoth hammer fist
4. Call it a day
(For the record: Lethal, to me, is penatrating trauma, while Smash is blunt force trauma)
(Would also be cool if fire proc did DoT energy slight stun etc. That'd be hard- just saying)
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Yeah, I think people are forgetting the *really* hard part of such a change: What do you do for sword animations with the fire/smashing attacks or the pure fire attacks?|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
This is really easy folks, there are a million ways to do pointy or sharp flame animations.
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Personally, I've never played Fire Melee but hoping to eventually play it on a Stalker. And I want Sword animations for all the attacks. But I'm actually starting to lean on making a Fire/Shield Brute instead as I've seen some cool demon concepts on the board (lookin at you Werner
).
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Well, personally I wouldn't want ALL the attacks to be customizable to use the sword. Being about to show a little variety and shape the fire to different effect would I think be better than just swinging a sword every attack. Heck, that gets a little tedious with Broadsword itself. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Yeah, I think people are forgetting the *really* hard part of such a change: What do you do for sword animations with the fire/smashing attacks or the pure fire attacks?
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However, that doesn't mean that Fire Breath can't be replaced by shooting a blast of fire from the sword's blade. That would be a good graphic for that power.
And when it comes to "pure" fire damage, well, as it is the Fire Sword doesn't look particularly solid. It's assumed you've solidified it enough to give it cutting power, but that doesn't mean a power like Combustion couldn't look like Fire Sword Circle (for Doms anyway) yet with a sword that's somewhat more diffuse, and does DoT. Again, it would be more like the sword firing off a blast of flame, which then remains in a "circle" around the caster for a while, still burning.
And Cremate is Fire/Smashing. (61%/39%) In fact, Fire Melee is unique in that it does as much non-physical damage as it does. Few other Melee sets do pure damage of a elemental or energy type, and even then typically only with a ranged or AoE attack.
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I wish all the fire melee attacks where fire swords my self. Reminds me of Robert Jordan's Wheel of time where Rand wields the magic Fire Sword
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Originally Posted by MagusJoseph
Something that's really irked me for the longest time for Scrapper/Brute Fire Melee is that half of the powers in this version of the set seem to revolve around swords. Don't get me wrong, the set is marvelous for damage but, if I really wanted to swing a sword around, I would've taken Broadsword or Katana or Dual Blades.
In my humble opinion, Fire Melee should be about burning everything to a crisp and not about swinging around a sword(unless that's what somebody else wants). Perhaps some new animation options would be in order? I think that'd be awesome! |
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I love the swords in fire melee, I'd love to have sword animations for all the fire melee attacks, and my pick of firey swords to boot!|
Originally Posted by MagusJoseph
Something that's really irked me for the longest time for Scrapper/Brute Fire Melee is that half of the powers in this version of the set seem to revolve around swords. Don't get me wrong, the set is marvelous for damage but, if I really wanted to swing a sword around, I would've taken Broadsword or Katana or Dual Blades.
In my humble opinion, Fire Melee should be about burning everything to a crisp and not about swinging around a sword(unless that's what somebody else wants). Perhaps some new animation options would be in order? I think that'd be awesome! |
But sure, more animations is always good.
The lethal/fire lethal damage type argument has been made but I'm more than willing to overlook that completely if I get a couple more sword attacks.
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Something that's really irked me for the longest time for Scrapper/Brute Fire Melee is that half of the powers in this version of the set seem to revolve around swords. Don't get me wrong, the set is marvelous for damage but, if I really wanted to swing a sword around, I would've taken Broadsword or Katana or Dual Blades.
In my humble opinion, Fire Melee should be about burning everything to a crisp and not about swinging around a sword(unless that's what somebody else wants).
Perhaps some new animation options would be in order? I think that'd be awesome!
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