City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Petlesss Mastermind Ranking/Rating MM Attack Powers

Aitchuu

By Aitchuu,
Posted on: 2010-09-09 05:37 in Masterminds

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
I'm not really sure I'd call that video a strong argument in favor of petless builds looking at some of the discussion so far. The video shows a petless MM, killing slower than your average level 10 character. It took the full video (1:32) to kill 1 lt and 4 minions, that's not exactly what I would consider effective. That's with patron attacks too, something that won't be available for a long time. Soloing a character like that to 50 would be incredibly tedious, while grouping with a character like that is essentially the same as getting power leveled, because the group is carrying you through the fights.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocasta View Post
I'm not really sure I'd call that video a strong argument in favor of petless builds looking at some of the discussion so far. The video shows a petless MM, killing slower than your average level 10 character. It took the full video (1:32) to kill 1 lt and 4 minions, that's not exactly what I would consider effective. That's with patron attacks too, something that won't be available for a long time. Soloing a character like that to 50 would be incredibly tedious, while grouping with a character like that is essentially the same as getting power leveled, because the group is carrying you through the fights.
Thanks for that input! I found it both new and refreshing! Perhaps you have more gems to share? Care to cast your thoughts on level 1 characters contributing to a team of 50's?

I grouped for paper missions today. Level 39. Everyone was more or less the same level. We had 3 fire/kins (yay farmers!). My SB fell off for long enough for me to say something (usually 5 minutes or longer before I say something) and heals were sporadic at best. I think I got one fulcrum shift in the 6 missions we did. Yes, I checked to make sure that all 3 had SB - the heal is a given - and 2 had FS.

What I did see however, was a judicious use of fire cages to keep things spread out so the 3 scrappers and 1 brute had to single target everything down. That was a nice touch. One guy ran hot feet and stood on the other side of the room the whole time.

Transference? What's that? Also never used.

SO - We continue to berate the petless masterminds saying how they will not only not benefit any team they are on, but will in fact cause the non-petless people in said group to have babies with 3 heads, catch nasty diseases, and probably lose their house and job because a petless MM is on the team.

I would have preferred a petless MM to these 3 fire/kins who were not only NOT using the tools they had, but were going so far as to use powers in such a way that it actually made the group harder. Yay team!

Blah blah blah... I am the king of all that is MM and if you make a petless I will come to your house and eat all of your snacks... blah blah blah. We get it. You don't like the idea. Super. I hope you get bugged out and are forced to play any MM you have as petless. Mostly because you hate it so much. I do so love irony

Thank you all for your wonderful contributions to this thread. Below is a summary of all of the topics discussed:

In actual response to OP indicating an actual answer to their question:

  • Demons have nice debuffs and soft controls
  • Most of the other sets are about the same
  • Build suggestions

Indifferent responses that are neither an answer to the OP's question, or an argument against:

  • NO YOU!
  • Solo Petless MMs at 50 are viable
  • Viable is subjective
  • I made a petless MM - it was hard.


All other responses:

  • You're an idiot
  • You're the bane of every group you will be in
  • You're fat, ugly, and you smell bad - petless MM ftl
  • Make a corr
  • Make a fender
  • Make a brute
  • This will be hard - too hard - don't do it!
  • RP reasons aren't good enough for you to want to play any AT the way you want to play it. You must play it my way, or you're (stupid/fat/ugly/hairy/stupid/stupid).
  • Concept reasons aren't good enough for you to want to play any AT the way you want to play it. You must play it my way, or you're (stupid/fat/ugly/hairy/stupid/stupid).
  • NO YOU!
I think I hit on most, if not all of the relevant topics in this thread. If you feel I left something out, please feel free to call me names and quote out of context to prove your point.

Thanks! And you have yourself a WONDERFUL day!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monstrofo View Post
So what is the point? Will you guys seriously make Tankers with no toggles next? Why does only this come up? It's not the same as a kin never speed boosting. That's someone who takes a power and doesn't know how to use it (or doesn't care)... You're knowingly avoiding the best powers of an AT. You're the kin that doesn't even take speed boost or fulcrum shift.
To me, a petless Mastermind is along the same lines as a "pure" Empath who takes only the first attack from his Secondary, and no others. Or a Blapper who only takes Secondary powers and skips the majority of his ranged attacks. Or a "MAN" build. Or, if you want to go with some examples that really work, a Human form Kheldian, or an Arachnos Huntsman. There are drawbacks to all those builds, that's what makes them a challenge, that's why some people seek them out, but it's really just a conceptual limitation.

The honest truth is, it should not mean that much to skip the pets. We're talking about just three Powers here, out of eighteeen. So what if a Kin doesn't take Speed Boost? So what if that Stone Tanker doesn't take Granite Armor? So what if that Warshade doesn't take Dark Nova? It doesn't cripple the build just to skip ONE POWER. Even three Powers, if you look at any given Set carefully, you can find three you can skip.

Of course, you're not really talking about three powers. If you skip the pets, then you have no use for Upgrade or Equip, either. And likely Serum or Hell on Earth is useless, too. (Gang War wouldn't be, but technically speaking if you're not taking pets you shouldn't take Gang War either) But the bigger issue is, while the attacks deal damage, the pets deal damage AND draw aggro AND have defense/control powers AND give you Bodyguard as well. On damage alone, an attack power is only about 1/2 as effective as a pet power, and when it comes to survivability it's even less than that.

So it's not really like skipping a Sniper Attack or one of your AoEs or even your Ultimate. It's like rolling up two of your character's attacks into one Power and then skipping THAT. It's actually much more effective, overall, to skip TWO or THREE of your pet and pet buff powers, and then use that to pick up the attacks. What I call the "partially petless" build. I would much more recommend that over going totally petless.

OTOH, all of this makes me think that I would like to see someone try an experiment. Call it the "petless Corruptor". Take a Corruptor, choose the first three attacks from the Primary, but ONLY the first three attacks from the Primary. Then you can choose any Power from your Secondary or the Power Pool. I would like to see how that compares to a petless Mastermind, whether it would be more acceptable on a team, and whether it would be capable of soloing to 50.

After all the argument, "a Corruptor is going to have better stats" won't apply if you are playing a Corruptor. You have the exact same attacks as the petless Mastermind, and the same powers. (Not the same APP, but you could just choose only those that are in common) You would have Scourge, albeit with your three weakest attacks, and lower Endurance costs. But except for the slightly higher stats, it would be the same concept, and probably just as much of a challenge.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocasta View Post
All that really shows is how much money you've spent on the build. Do the same in SO's and I guarantee you a bot/traps MM with pets will steamroll one without. So if we're comparing characters that are IO'd out, almost any well build sd scrapper or brute can blow up an entire x8/+2 spawn at once, while being pretty safe without needing any inspiration use. At that point the only limiting factor is running to the next spawn and SC recharge (which will probably be like 20 seconds with a high recharge build). If your argument is that an IO'd out petless MM can match another AT with just SO's, fine, we all know IO's are very powerful.



I see this kind of argument a lot, and I really hate it. You compare things based on the same assumptions, you don't change them to fit your argument. So for example, you don't compare a very well played petless MM to a very poorly played *insert useful AT*, it's not a fair comparison. You compare very well played petless MM to a very well played useful AT, or a very poorly played petless MM to a very poorly played useful AT. Any other way is just a pointless argument. In that sense, when comparing a well played petless MM to a well played other AT, I would put my money on the other AT being more useful most of the time.
Simply if you took the time just to do a search on these forums you will see what a cheapskate I am. I sell any purple IOs I get. I would rather spread the wealth across several toons then build up one toon with millions. Personally to me even Frankenslotting IOs is better then using SOs. I do not frown upon someone though if their choice is to use SOs.

As for your second comment. I could not really imagine a poorly played petless mastermind getting to level 50 unless the person was dual boxing or PLing the character. The amount of frustration a person who does not understand the game mechanics would have to deal with in this type of build while leveling would be very high. OR of course unless the person used the 2nd build option on their mastermind and leveled normally. Again if that were the case then honestly this whole discussion /debate and thread is really useless persay. My impression from the start was the OP was looking to level in a petless capacity and not just create a second build to be petless.

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misaligned View Post
I would have preferred a petless MM to these 3 fire/kins
Quote:
please feel free to call me names and quote out of context to prove your point.



Quote:
You're an idiot
Done.

<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution View Post
Done.
Ahhh Tam. Clever as always.

Don't you have some 12 year olds to boss around?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misaligned View Post
Ahhh Tam. Clever as always.

Don't you have some 12 year olds to boss around?
Law requires I give them at least one day off a year.

<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
After all the argument, "a Corruptor is going to have better stats" won't apply if you are playing a Corruptor. You have the exact same attacks as the petless Mastermind, and the same powers. (Not the same APP, but you could just choose only those that are in common) You would have Scourge, albeit with your three weakest attacks, and lower Endurance costs. But except for the slightly higher stats, it would be the same concept, and probably just as much of a challenge.
Snap shot
Corruptor: 28.4 dge*, 3.54 end (includes scourge, I think... using Mid's)
Mastermind: 20.8 dge, 4.42 end

Dark miasma:
Corruptor: -15% to-hit, -30% dge, .52 eps
Mastermind: -11.3% to-hit, -22.5% dge, .65 eps

Hit points:
Corruptor: 1071
Mastermind: 803

It's not as close as you seem to think it is.

If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari

It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
After all the argument, "a Corruptor is going to have better stats" won't apply if you are playing a Corruptor. You have the exact same attacks as the petless Mastermind, and the same powers. (Not the same APP, but you could just choose only those that are in common) You would have Scourge, albeit with your three weakest attacks, and lower Endurance costs. But except for the slightly higher stats, it would be the same concept, and probably just as much of a challenge.
It's an interesting idea, but the first three attacks in a Corruptor set definitely don't correspond to the three MM attacks. The third Corr attack is either a Cone, (PB)AoE, or does extreme damage. Combining any of those with scourge, or even alone (because of higher Corr damage), easily outdamages MM attacks.

Also calling the third attack for a Corruptor one of the WEAKEST attacks is... Weird. Have you played Fire Blast, the most popular? The third attack is Fire Ball, a very solid AoE...

Why not at least do Dark/Dark versus Necro/Dark and have the Corr take the three exact, matching attacks (although Life Drain comes a lot later for a Corruptor so that complicates things)

As posted above, better secondary numbers alone are going to skew this so far in favor of the Corruptor to answer the question, but the inclusion of Scourge is something I think you're underplaying. To me this still says the only reason to play a Petless Mastermind is masochism.

 

Posted

Nothing to see here, move along.

Your does not mean you are.

I just can't fathom how so many of you can get it wrong every single time. It isn't like the rest our your posts scream idiot or illiterate. Shoot, I see the correct use of There and Their so why is Your/You're so hard? I feel better from venting in this unnecessarily critical post.

/anal_retentive_spelling_nazi

 

Posted

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Mercenaries
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Burst -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(5), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(7)
Level 1: Web Grenade -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Slug -- Empty(A), Empty(7), Empty(9), Empty(9), Empty(11), ExStrk-Dam%(11)
Level 4: Caltrops -- Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(A), AirB'st-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 6: Boxing -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), T'Death-Dam%(15), Mako-Dam%(15), Hectmb-Dam%(17), GS-%Dam(27)
Level 8: M30 Grenade -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), Posi-Dmg/Rng(25), Posi-Acc/Dmg(25), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(27)
Level 10: Acid Mortar -- LdyGrey-%Dam(A), ShldBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Achilles-ResDeb%(19), ShldBrk-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(21), ShldBrk-%Dam(21), ShldBrk-Acc/Rchg(23)
Level 12: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 16: Force Field Generator -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(17), DefBuff-I(19)
Level 18: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), Aegis-Psi/Status(31), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(37), Aegis-ResDam(45), GA-3defTpProc(45)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(29), P'Shift-EndMod(29), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(36), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(37)
Level 22: Poison Trap -- Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Hold(33), Lock-Acc/Rchg(34), Lock-%Hold(34), Lock-Rchg/Hold(34), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(36)
Level 24: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(33), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 26: Aid Other -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Seeker Drones -- Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(A), Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(37), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(39), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(39), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(46), Stpfy-KB%(48)
Level 30: Aid Self -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(31), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Numna-Heal/Rchg(43), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(46), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(50)
Level 32: Triage Beacon -- Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(A), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(46)
Level 35: Trip Mine -- Erad-%Dam(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Erad-Dmg(40), Erad-Acc/Rchg(40), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(40), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 38: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Zephyr-Travel(43), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48), Zephyr-ResKB(48)
Level 41: Scorpion Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(42), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(42), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(42)
Level 44: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 47: Web Envelope -- TotHntr-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A)
Level 49: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Mako-Dam%(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 12: LEGACY BUILD

 

Posted

Heard a while back about a petless MM taking down one of the RV heroes. Of course, he was using /traps which has the AV killer Poison Trap. Therefore, more most people petless MMs are too much of a challenge to be bothered with, but there are some people that thrive on the challenge and are able to make it work.

The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.

 

Posted

Thread is 5 months old, in case anyone is curious.

 

Posted

Honestly better then starting a new one. At least we don't need to rehash the whole this is a dumb idea debate.

@Yorukira , You need Traps without a doubt as Trip mine and for my build which does have the last pet and Detonator to be able to do some real damage. Traps can and will get you defense cap and has other tools to help control and mitigate damage. Force Field will not get you defense cap as you only have one bubble to rely on and you have no damage beyond your primary. Whereas in Traps you can use every single power in that set to some benefit either solo or in a team.

@Vanmesser, I reworked my build a bit. If your gonna spend the money for those rare IOs, Just swap out my demon for your Merc. It gives you soft defense cap. Endurance is a bit on the high end. would need to rework it a bit more I think. Bonfire is pretty nice power it really helps to keep mobs at bay.


Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Heat Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Corruption -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(3)
Level 1: Web Grenade -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(15), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(19), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(34), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(43), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(45)
Level 2: Caltrops -- TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A), TmpRdns-Dmg/Slow(42)
Level 4: Triage Beacon -- H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(A), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(7), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 6: Lash -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(9), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(9), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11)
Level 8: Crack Whip -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(13), Posi-Dmg/Rng(34), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37)
Level 10: Acid Mortar -- ShldBrk-DefDeb(A), ShldBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(25), ShldBrk-Acc/DefDeb(33), ShldBrk-Acc/Rchg(39), ShldBrk-%Dam(43), ShldBrk-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 12: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 14: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(15)
Level 16: Force Field Generator -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(17), LkGmblr-Rchg+(17)
Level 18: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(19), LkGmblr-Def(21)
Level 20: Poison Trap -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-%Hold(23), Lock-Acc/Rchg(31), Lock-Rchg/Hold(31), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(40), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(42)
Level 22: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(23), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(45)
Level 24: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(37), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(39), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(39), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(40)
Level 26: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 28: Seeker Drones -- RzDz-Acc/Rchg(A), RzDz-EndRdx/Stun(29), RzDz-Stun/Rng(29), RzDz-Acc/EndRdx(31), RzDz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(34)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), Zephyr-Travel(46), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(46)
Level 32: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 35: Trip Mine -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(36), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(36), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37)
Level 38: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 41: Fire Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(43), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 44: Fire Ball -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(46), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rng(50)
Level 47: Bonfire -- FrcFbk-Rechg%(A)
Level 49: Char -- Hold-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 6: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(25), Mrcl-Rcvry+(40)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(5), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(5), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(27), P'Shift-End%(27)



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1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt_Earp View Post
Thread is 5 months old, in case anyone is curious.
And that is plenty old. Thread closed.