In case you missed - let rampant speculation begin!
By
Aaron Islander,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 13:24 in Scrappers
Quote:
Because they are absolute death on /SR and other defense based sets. When your high defense Regenner faces an enemy with a 100% tohit buff, you still have your entire secondary to fall back on. When an /SR is in that position, all he has to save him is any +res he might have picked up, which is usually not nearly enough.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I've got high defense Regen scrappers, and they mess me up enough that I've been wondering why they haven't used them more before now.
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When I fight DE on my /SR scrapper--something I try very hard to avoid--I have to kite them all over the map to stay out of the Quartz, because if I don't I die almost instantly.
Trust me, if my Regen or FA builds pile into a +2/x6 spawn of them an tries to stand there, the outcome isn't going to be much better than if I was SR.
In any case, I'm pretty sure you kind of missed my point. The fact that they are brutal on defense is, from the dev's perspective a good thing. Are Quartz perhaps a bit too unfair? I'd be open to that position - I'd rather see stuff like this be big +acc than big +toHit. But mechanical tweaking opportunities aside, the fact that they force someone with high defense to kite or run around a corner probably means the mobs in some form deserve to be used a bit more.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
To say that the outcome is the same is to say that your entire secondary has no bearing in the outcome... which is really a sad comment on /Regen if it's true. (Not going to comment on /FA, we all know it's squishy, and that's the price it pays for the extra damage).
I'm not opposed to having some mobs have an increased chance to hit, or an accuracy buff. It's the *magnitude* of the accuracy buff that is devastating in the case of Quartz. Having a mob have an ability that invalidates my entire secondary set is... well, what it is is not fun. I enjoy fighting Arachnos, Vanguard Sword, Malta, and other "nasty" enemy types. I like the kinds of challenges that they throw at me (and yes, even with softcapped defense, these mobs are very dangerous in large numbers).
Fighting DE on an /SR sucks. It's not a fun kind of challenge. It's really, really irritating.
This is one ability I would really strongly prefer not to see proliferated.
Not sure if this will be that big a benefit without them adding additional slots....
most powers without at least 3 slots are useless.
Personally, i'd prefer them just allowing you to take the powers earlier and without prerequisites - not making them inherent.
131430 Starfare: First Contact
178774 Tales of Croatoa: A Rose By Any Other Name ( 2009 MA Best In-Canon Arc ) ( 2009 Player Awards - Best Serious Arc )
My SR scrapper is happy that he no longer has to pick either Fighting or a fun Epic.
My Firey Armor scrapper is happy he can finally fit in Fighting pool cause he needs the extra surviveability.
As others, I forsee taking Assault / Tactics for fun in a few builds.
I just thought that I'm going to be adding Assault to my Dark/Shield Scrapper, I should be able to get close to 300dps with Assault.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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This is a false statement, and I'm really not sure how to continue this discussion if you have this kind of grasp of how the fight goes.|
Originally Posted by Wildwind
To say that the outcome is the same is to say that your entire secondary has no bearing in the outcome... which is really a sad comment on /Regen if it's true.
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If I am teleported naked into the heart of the sun, I'll go poof. If I don a fire-retardant radiation suit and teleport into the sun, I'll still go poof. It does not follow that fire-retardant radiation suits are useless, only that they aren't any help for teleporting into the sun.
If you strip the defense off of a Scrapperall the way down to the defense floor (not just zero defense), can you tell me how many Scrapper powersets can consistently leap in a spawn of +2 or higher, x6 or higher, then just stand there (I did use those exact words), and not die before they kill the spawn? Do you really find it surprising that the outcome for most powersets will be defeat? If you can agree that's case, then yes the powerset usually doesn't ultimately matter.
I mean, seriously, why do you think Cimerorans come up so much as ***-kicking foes for anybody who can't get really high DDR? It's the same thing, except Quartz also screw people with high DDR.
In the specific case of Regen, it works by out-healing incoming DPS, and you just are not going consistently do that in the middle of a team-sized spawn at -45% net defense. I might last marginally longer than your SR, bit I will still die if I stand there and fight.
I defeated DE by kiting them like crazy until I could defeat the Quartz or the mobs that produce them. I've done that on a Nightwidow as well, which has all the same challenges as your SR and lower base HP. If your SR is dying despite jockying around to keep the spawns away from thir Quartz emenators, I don't know what to tell you.
+Defense is highly proliferated in this game. Because of the way it builds returns on survival, and because it works the same way regardless of AT, +Def is the single most effective thing available to players today for letting them fight more foes at higher difficulty. That means if the devs want more difficult challenges, they're probably going to need mobs that better counter our defenses. DE are very good at that. Like I said before, I'm open to the idea that they're too good at it, but I'm still surprised the devs aren't using them more.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Despite not being a huge fan of the Body Mastery pool, the powers in it are pretty handy for being useful with low or no slot investment. I suspect it might find its way into more builds now, though in some cases that might be done by giving up other epic pools, and thus EPP/PPP attacks. That could mean you move those slots into primary/secondary attacks, though, with potential implications on your ranged or AoE options.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
I just thought that I'm going to be adding Assault to my Dark/Shield Scrapper, I should be able to get close to 300dps with Assault.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I already have Body Mastery spec'd into my Dark/Shield. It would be nice to get a PPP power into my build though...
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Despite not being a huge fan of the Body Mastery pool, the powers in it are pretty handy for being useful with low or no slot investment. I suspect it might find its way into more builds now, though in some cases that might be done by giving up other epic pools, and thus EPP/PPP attacks. That could mean you move those slots into primary/secondary attacks, though, with potential implications on your ranged or AoE options.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Exactly, people who claim the game is too easy are apparently unaware of the difficulty slider, because set to plus 4/x8 isn't easy. And anybody that teams on a scrapper who doesn't just watch the fight or take cheetoh breaks in between fights runs into endurance issues from 1-20 (its not nearly as bad solo because insps rain down like mad, where on teams they do not).|
Originally Posted by Death_Badger
Thats what difficulty sliders are for, or do your lowbies find +4/x8 too easy?
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This is a great change. My toons won't be gasping for air every five minutes from 1-20, and I won't feel like the levels where I routinely get swift, health and stamina are 'boring' power lvls - I'll enjoy getting to those levels a lot more knowing I can pick a more unique power. On top of that, I can add a bit more flavor to each of my toons with 3 new power selections, without over doing it with additional slots to work with. Assuming this change doensn't come with an unannounced catch, I say good job devs.
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The problem with defense is, it only really becomes good at the softcap, and the more you start to 'breach' it, the more useless it becomes. And since softcap is usually only acheived in the very late levels, I don't see a problem with it being 'uber' in most situations. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is a false statement, and I'm really not sure how to continue this discussion if you have this kind of grasp of how the fight goes.
If I am teleported naked into the heart of the sun, I'll go poof. If I don a fire-retardant radiation suit and teleport into the sun, I'll still go poof. It does not follow that fire-retardant radiation suits are useless, only that they aren't any help for teleporting into the sun. If you strip the defense off of a Scrapperall the way down to the defense floor (not just zero defense), can you tell me how many Scrapper powersets can consistently leap in a spawn of +2 or higher, x6 or higher, then just stand there (I did use those exact words), and not die before they kill the spawn? Do you really find it surprising that the outcome for most powersets will be defeat? If you can agree that's case, then yes the powerset usually doesn't ultimately matter. I mean, seriously, why do you think Cimerorans come up so much as ***-kicking foes for anybody who can't get really high DDR? It's the same thing, except Quartz also screw people with high DDR. In the specific case of Regen, it works by out-healing incoming DPS, and you just are not going consistently do that in the middle of a team-sized spawn at -45% net defense. I might last marginally longer than your SR, bit I will still die if I stand there and fight. I defeated DE by kiting them like crazy until I could defeat the Quartz or the mobs that produce them. I've done that on a Nightwidow as well, which has all the same challenges as your SR and lower base HP. If your SR is dying despite jockying around to keep the spawns away from thir Quartz emenators, I don't know what to tell you. +Defense is highly proliferated in this game. Because of the way it builds returns on survival, and because it works the same way regardless of AT, +Def is the single most effective thing available to players today for letting them fight more foes at higher difficulty. That means if the devs want more difficult challenges, they're probably going to need mobs that better counter our defenses. DE are very good at that. Like I said before, I'm open to the idea that they're too good at it, but I'm still surprised the devs aren't using them more. |
I personally don't want my level 50, IO'd to the gills, having to kite or pull every regualar group they run into (If you do I guess it's a matter of personal preference). I think a top end build should be able to wade into most every enemy group and tear them up. I think the situation is fine as it is, because there are some groups in the game that already can tear through primarily defense based builds like tissue paper.
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Nailed it.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I find just the opposite, that the lack of tool to decrease downtime between battles make me run everything on easier settings.
I don't find running out of Endurance or not having Rest available to be challenging, just boring and frustrating. The lack of Endurance pre 20 and the rest Recharge just prevents me from doing more challenging stuff. I don't ride the edge of difficulty not because it's too hard, but because there is too much downtime. Having Stamina at level 2 and better health recovery between battles will mean I'll definitely faceplant more often because I will not be discouraged from increasing the pace and difficulty by the downtime of waiting between battles because that sucks. |
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this is what I've been thinking!|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Exactly, people who claim the game is too easy are apparently unaware of the difficulty slider, because set to plus 4/x8 isn't easy. And anybody that teams on a scrapper who doesn't just watch the fight or take cheetoh breaks in between fights runs into endurance issues from 1-20 (its not nearly as bad solo because insps rain down like mad, where on teams they do not).
This is a great change. My toons won't be gasping for air every five minutes from 1-20, and I won't feel like the levels where I routinely get swift, health and stamina are 'boring' power lvls - I'll enjoy getting to those levels a lot more knowing I can pick a more unique power. On top of that, I can add a bit more flavor to each of my toons with 3 new power selections, without over doing it with additional slots to work with. Assuming this change doensn't come with an unannounced catch, I say good job devs. |
I can now take those level 20 powers AT LEVEL 20!!!
Quickness at lvl 20, instead of level 22!
Drain Psyche at lvl 20, instead of level 22!
Energize at level 20, instead of level 22!
The list goes on!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I think you meant that SOME powers without at least 3 slots are useless, because there's a whole mess of them in the power pools that are fine out of the box. Stealth pool, any of the travel powers except teleport, CJ, most of the leadership pool, hasten, air superiority, and I'm sure there are quite a few I'm missing. Even primaries and secondaries have powers that work just fine without any extra slotting.|
Originally Posted by Hercules
Not sure if this will be that big a benefit without them adding additional slots....
most powers without at least 3 slots are useless. Personally, i'd prefer them just allowing you to take the powers earlier and without prerequisites - not making them inherent. |
You may be confusing set bonuses with powers, however. Many otherwise fine-at-1-slot powers end up with extra slots simply because of the IO sets that can go in them. That doesn't change the effectiveness of the powers, however, merely the utility.
And really, it's a rare build that puts extra slots in anything but Health and Stamina in the fitness pool :P
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I agree with the assessment about travel powers - I'll be taking Flight for my tanker for example. Toggles like combat jumping or weave, however, need additional slotting to be anything other than minimally useful. In a number of my builds, that one slot would have to hold an End Reduction just to minimize end usage on an already end hungry build.|
Originally Posted by NezuChiza
I think you meant that SOME powers without at least 3 slots are useless, because there's a whole mess of them in the power pools that are fine out of the box. Stealth pool, any of the travel powers except teleport, CJ, most of the leadership pool, hasten, air superiority, and I'm sure there are quite a few I'm missing. Even primaries and secondaries have powers that work just fine without any extra slotting
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I've read a number of posts where people intend to take powers to serve as a "mule" for LoTG recharge reduction, which is a shame IMO. A power should be taken for what it is meant to be .... not as an unused power to hold a bonus.
131430 Starfare: First Contact
178774 Tales of Croatoa: A Rose By Any Other Name ( 2009 MA Best In-Canon Arc ) ( 2009 Player Awards - Best Serious Arc )
Quote:
most of my characters have a few powers they rarely if ever use. Nearly all of them have something I didn't really want, only 'none of the above' isn't a valid power choice.|
Originally Posted by Hercules
A power should be taken for what it is meant to be .... not as an unused power to hold a bonus.
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Swapping these sorts of powers for others that I'll rarely if ever use but which can deliver a powerful global bonus is a pretty obvious move.
I mean it'd be great if all powers were equally useful and desirable, but they aren't. It'll be nice to get *something* out of those afterthought power choices.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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While I'm not fond of set mules as I consider them generally wasteful, I've also never subscribed to the idea that there is a certain way things "are meant to be" and that's how it "should" be. The numbers are what the numbers are. If a set mule makes sense, it makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Hercules
I've read a number of posts where people intend to take powers to serve as a "mule" for LoTG recharge reduction, which is a shame IMO. A power should be taken for what it is meant to be .... not as an unused power to hold a bonus.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I cant argue with that, however, it would be nice if they would give at least a few additional slots to handle the additional 4 powers that each character is going to recieve. I would think 6 to 8 would be reasonable, and perhaps spread them out over each 10 level range...|
Originally Posted by Werner
While I'm not fond of set mules as I consider them generally wasteful, I've also never subscribed to the idea that there is a certain way things "are meant to be" and that's how it "should" be. The numbers are what the numbers are. If a set mule makes sense, it makes sense.
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Edit: I wonder if it would be possible for them to create a new concept of "inherent slots" that could only be used on inherent powers. That way we could slot stamina/health/etc., and still have the same number of slots available for the regular powers.
131430 Starfare: First Contact
178774 Tales of Croatoa: A Rose By Any Other Name ( 2009 MA Best In-Canon Arc ) ( 2009 Player Awards - Best Serious Arc )
I'd go as far as to say that such a buff would be even crazier than getting fitness for free. I'm pretty sure that offered the choice between 4 extra power picks and 6 extra slots, I'd take the slots on most of my characters.
CoX characters really, really don't need access to more set IO bonuses.
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This.
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Originally Posted by Spruce
I'd go as far as to say that such a buff would be even crazier than getting fitness for free. I'm pretty sure that offered the choice between 4 extra power picks and 6 extra slots, I'd take the slots on most of my characters.
CoX characters really, really don't need access to more set IO bonuses. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
I'm gonna have to strongly disagree about Combat Jumping needing any additional slots to be useful. On any build I have that is softcapped CJ with a Luck Recharge(and maybe a kismet to hit bonus) are all that is in there and that last 2% makes a huge difference.
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Originally Posted by Hercules
I agree with the assessment about travel powers - I'll be taking Flight for my tanker for example. Toggles like combat jumping or weave, however, need additional slotting to be anything other than minimally useful. In a number of my builds, that one slot would have to hold an End Reduction just to minimize end usage on an already end hungry build.
I've read a number of posts where people intend to take powers to serve as a "mule" for LoTG recharge reduction, which is a shame IMO. A power should be taken for what it is meant to be .... not as an unused power to hold a bonus. |
I have to say, adding an epic/patron pool to my dark/shield is going to be hella sweet. I'll find the slots somewhere.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
Another idea .. is to leave the current Fitness pool as is, and just duplicate it as an inherant power set with different power names. My BS/Dark scrapper could really, really use a double dose of stamina....
131430 Starfare: First Contact
178774 Tales of Croatoa: A Rose By Any Other Name ( 2009 MA Best In-Canon Arc ) ( 2009 Player Awards - Best Serious Arc )
Quote:
My problem with the PPPs for Scrappers is that outside of Shadow Meld and Ball Lightning, there isn't much that interests me.
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Originally Posted by _Mojo_
I have to say, adding an epic/patron pool to my dark/shield is going to be hella sweet. I'll find the slots somewhere.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA