Why were the new Merits made to decrease TF Recipe prices and increase Purple prices?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
Why were the new Merits created to decrease Task Force Recipe prices and increase Purple prices?
A) Intention
B) Oversight
C) Ignorance
I'm going with

D) Too Soon to Say


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misaligned View Post
I believe we have a greater number of people gathering their money together to try and "pimp out" their favorite 50. Even if 10 people a week buy a purple that they normally wouldn't purchase in anticipation of incarnate, that's 10 more people than normal. Hence, why the price goes up and continues to go up.
Wait! Are you saying the price went up because demand went up? Preposterous! Blasphemous! Mickeymous!


50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

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Posted

I still don't get the "Prices are too high thing"

I went from Zero (I did have 2 purpled toons to use to generate income/stuff to sell) cash to 3 additional fully purpled toons in 3 months.

Yeah I am an experienced Marketer, but are things really that bad?


When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...


BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
Yeah I am an experienced Marketer, but are things really that bad?
Well, if you could have done that before in, say, 1 or 1.5 months, do you consider being able to have done it in 3 an improvement?


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

It was more that I didn't have time to level the toons.

I usually had my banker alts filled to the brim with Sets waiting for the target toon to hit 50.

I just can't do the marathon leveling sessions I used to.


When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...


BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

 

Posted

I do think it's way too soon to tell. Also I19 is going to throw another huge monkeywrench into the markets (with everyone playing their 50s even more and the resultant influx of Purples, INF and recipes) which means they will not settle for a while.

Me? I just casually do my Paper missions till I get 3-5 tips a night. I run at 0/0 level (thinking about changing that to -1/8) and kill everything in the mish- more chance to get purples that way. It usually takes me 100-120 minutes a night. Every time I get 2 HVMs I get a LoTG 7.5 & sell it. I've made 600+ mill including purples doing this. That is on top of using HVMS to IO out 3 toons totally.

The HVMs DO give you a path to getting purples and PVP IOs. Not by gathering up HVMs for them (though you certainly can) but by opening up your revenue stream to allow you to AFFORD to buy what you need!




"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat

 

Posted

Players can quickly figure out which rewards give the most bang for their buck. I don't expect people to use a-merits to purchase purples until the value of doing so matches or exceeds the value in using a-merits to purchase other rewards. The devs should have realized this immediately. I don't know if they think that purples are grossly undervalued, or if they just don't understand basic economics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
I still don't get the "Prices are too high thing"

I went from Zero (I did have 2 purpled toons to use to generate income/stuff to sell) cash to 3 additional fully purpled toons in 3 months.

Yeah I am an experienced Marketer, but are things really that bad?
How many of those purples did you purchase using a-merits?


 

Posted

Zero. Either windfalls or bought off the market.

I am farming A-merits but for a rainy day (I guess).

I didn't even use A-merits for the standard IO sets I needed. Found it was faster to just market my way there.


When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...


BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

 

Posted

I haven't used any of my Alignment Merits yet, and I only have two. If I were to seriously farm for A-merits, I'd probably buy PvP IO's and flip instead of purples. Purples as far easier to acquire the PvP IO's, (at least for me since I do not PvP...) For me it's more profitable to farm the Council map for purples and also farm tickets in the AE. I try to diversify by selling Kinetic Combats, Reactive Armors, Rectified Reticles, Regenerative Tissue: +Regen, etc., along with any purples I drop.

Although lately the market has been pretty cold. Only thing I've noticed thats selling is salvage.

Pure speculation, but since i19 is coming soon, the market will probably pick up, so the price of purples could go up more.

With the market being cold and i19 on the horizion... it's why I'm holding onto my purples...for now.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrinsic View Post
Players can quickly figure out which rewards give the most bang for their buck. I don't expect people to use a-merits to purchase purples until the value of doing so matches or exceeds the value in using a-merits to purchase other rewards. The devs should have realized this immediately. I don't know if they think that purples are grossly undervalued, or if they just don't understand basic economics.
... maybe the devs thought there's some value in giving stubborn idiots a way to get exactly what they want, guaranteed, for five times the effort of doing it any other way?

"I DON'T GET PURPLES EVER" threads have gone the way of "I'M OUT OF RESPECS WHAT DO YOU EXPECT ME TO DO" threads.


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@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
Some interesting replies. I am torn between quoting some and saying "I told you so" or perhaps "You were wrong". Some likely responses people may post:

1) "Now is too soon to draw a conclusion. Wait longer".
I'll post another picture in 2-4 weeks.

2) "ZOMG that picture is photoshopped. I can tell from the pixels."
You got me.

3) "Just wait until people earn enough Hero/Villain merits to get purples".

Luck of the Gambler = 2 Alignment Merits
Luck of the Gambler = ~120M Inf
1 Alignment Merit = ~60M Inf -10% fee = 54M Inf

Purple Recipe = 20 Alignment Merits
Most Expensive Purple Recipe = ~400M Inf
1 Alignment Merit = 20M Inf

Thus, If you had 20 Alignment Merits you could get 1 Purple recipe OR
10 Luck of the Gamblers, sell them on the market for 110M Inf each for 1.1B Inf. That's 990M Inf after fees. Then you could buy 2 of the fancy expensive Purples you want and pocket the extra money.
Choice A: 1 Purple Recipe
Choice B: 2 Purple Recipes + Millions of Inf
Who would choose A?!

Your response: See Signature: "Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!"
My Response: Touche (An acknowledgement of a hit; An acknowledgement of the success, appropriateness or superiority of an argument)
Isn't your answer staring you in the face? Your own optimized solution of using Alignment Merits to get LotGs to sell on the Market and then using the influence to buy Purples on the Market is spiking the supply of LotGs and causing a commensurate demand on the purples.

The segment of the market that is aware of the conversion rates is probably similar to the segment who is consuming the IOs so everyone is moving to do the same thing at the same time.

The bottom line is that LotGs (and other traditionally high recipes) will continue to come down in price until it reaches (a rough) equilibrium with Purple recipes on an Alignment Merit efficient conversion rate, and/or the purples will move up in price. Which is exactly what we have seen and will continue to see until a more efficient conversion mechanism is found to maximize the players' 'investments'.

I doubt there is any intentional reasons to change any market values from the devs, but they are aware that their additions and changes have repercussions on the market. It's not that they don't care, but it is what it is as long as they don't feel the game balance is being thrown off.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PumBumbler View Post
Isn't your answer staring you in the face? Your own optimized solution of using Alignment Merits to get LotGs to sell on the Market and then using the influence to buy Purples on the Market is spiking the supply of LotGs and causing a commensurate demand on the purples.

The segment of the market that is aware of the conversion rates is probably similar to the segment who is consuming the IOs so everyone is moving to do the same thing at the same time.

The bottom line is that LotGs (and other traditionally high recipes) will continue to come down in price until it reaches (a rough) equilibrium with Purple recipes on an Alignment Merit efficient conversion rate, and/or the purples will move up in price. Which is exactly what we have seen and will continue to see until a more efficient conversion mechanism is found to maximize the players' 'investments'.

I doubt there is any intentional reasons to change any values from the devs, but they are aware that their additions and changes have repercussions on the market. It's not that they don't care, but it is what it is as long as they don't feel the game balance is being thrown off.
For me, that seems right. I have one personal observation, I no longer feel the need to farm merits in any way, shape or form. Its just much easier to use my inf to grab things off the market.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PumBumbler View Post
Isn't your answer staring you in the face? Your own optimized solution of using Alignment Merits to get LotGs to sell on the Market and then using the influence to buy Purples on the Market is spiking the supply of LotGs and causing a commensurate demand on the purples.

The segment of the market that is aware of the conversion rates is probably similar to the segment who is consuming the IOs so everyone is moving to do the same thing at the same time.

The bottom line is that LotGs (and other traditionally high recipes) will continue to come down in price until it reaches (a rough) equilibrium with Purple recipes on an Alignment Merit efficient conversion rate, and/or the purples will move up in price. Which is exactly what we have seen and will continue to see until a more efficient conversion mechanism is found to maximize the players' 'investments'.

I doubt there is any intentional reasons to change any market values from the devs, but they are aware that their additions and changes have repercussions on the market. It's not that they don't care, but it is what it is as long as they don't feel the game balance is being thrown off.
The question isn't why are LotG Prices going down and Purple prices going up.
The question is why were A-merits created to do such a thing.

As I posted in the beta, probably already posted in this thread, and you essentially explained it yourself... once again...
1 A Merit = 1 LotG = 100M
20 A Merits = 1 Purple = 500M
LotG = 100M per A-merit (or 90 after fees)
Purples = 25M per A-merit
The math clearly shows that the Purple Price of A-Merits is only for the ignorant and those who hate the market with fervor.

On the other front...
200 Reward Merits = 1 LotG
1 Alignment Merit = 1 LotG

What is it, 5 Tip Missions for 1 Alignment Merit? I'm honestly not sure. "MPM: The desired Minutes per Merit, currently 3.7" 200 Reward Merits * 3.7 minutes = 740 minutes or 12 Hours of Task Forces. Is that right? Feel free to correct the math. The conclusion will still be the same:
X Tip Missions > Y Task Force stuff
So 5 Tip Missions = 7 Imperious TF Runs?
That's ludicrous. Alignment Merit efficiency for Task Force Recipes is extremely high.

Task Force reward merits were made specifically to allow players to obtain the Pool Cs they wanted without using the market. Essentially, this means that Task Force reward Merits were made to control Pool C prices. If the intent is to make Pool Cs more available why not use the mechanic that already existed for doing so? Instead, a new mechanic was made to allow players to obtain Purples without using the market. However, the new mechanic is more effective for increasing the availability of Pool Cs and not Purples/PvPs.


 

Posted

10 alignment (tip) missions + 1 morality missions = 1 alignment merit. After doing an alignment mission you lock one of your 5 progress slots for 20 hours, so you can only earn approximately one alignment merit per edit:two calendar days. You can also buy a merit outright for 20M inf and 50 Reward Merits, and I believe that's also on its own 20 hour cooldown timer (one purchase per 20 hours).


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

11 Tips for 1 Alignment Merit spread over two days.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
The question isn't why are LotG Prices going down and Purple prices going up.
The question is why were A-merits created to do such a thing.

As I posted in the beta, probably already posted in this thread, and you essentially explained it yourself... once again...
1 A Merit = 1 LotG = 100M
20 A Merits = 1 Purple = 500M
LotG = 100M per A-merit (or 90 after fees)
Purples = 25M per A-merit
The math clearly shows that the Purple Price of A-Merits is only for the ignorant and those who hate the market with fervor.

On the other front...
200 Reward Merits = 1 LotG
1 Alignment Merit = 1 LotG

...

Task Force reward merits were made specifically to allow players to obtain the Pool Cs they wanted without using the market. Essentially, this means that Task Force reward Merits were made to control Pool C prices. If the intent is to make Pool Cs more available why not use the mechanic that already existed for doing so? Instead, a new mechanic was made to allow players to obtain Purples without using the market. However, the new mechanic is more effective for increasing the availability of Pool Cs and not Purples/PvPs.
Um, you had 2 Alignment Merits for 1 LotG in your last post.

You get 1 Alignment Merit for 10 Tip missions and 1 Morality mission over 2 days. You can convert 50 Merits into 1 Alignment Merit plus a 20M fee every day. It is gated, but Task Force Merits are not as heavily gated. Probably the devs wished they would have gated them as strongly as they have Alignment Merits, but that is only my wild a** speculation.

It's just another way to do things, especially for people who don't have the inclination to do Task Forces.

Alignment Merits are probably intended to be a higher tier of goods/economy. Just like IOs are considered to be superior to the SOs/DOs/TOs system that was there before. I don't see a lot of posts wondering why the devs chose to implement IOs as a scheme to devalue SOs. It is what it is.

Just remember that Alignment Merits are probably going to be tied into the end game content including Incarnate slotting etc., so reward merits may be considered as legacy as SOs are today.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
What is it, 5 Tip Missions for 1 Alignment Merit? I'm honestly not sure. "MPM: The desired Minutes per Merit, currently 3.7" 200 Reward Merits * 3.7 minutes = 740 minutes or 12 Hours of Task Forces. Is that right? Feel free to correct the math. The conclusion will still be the same:
X Tip Missions > Y Task Force stuff
So 5 Tip Missions = 7 Imperious TF Runs?
That's ludicrous. Alignment Merit efficiency for Task Force Recipes is extremely high.
50RM = 1AM (ignoring the 20M inf)

Since we are gated to 1 AM per 2 days, let's say 5.5 tip missions for 30 mins of work = .5 AM, or 25RM. Effectively 25RM = 30 min.

Typical TF farm times (+/-, decent team of TF runners - ie. not fully optimized)
ITF = 28RM = 25 min
STF = 38RM = 45 min
KTF = 20RM = 20 min
KHTF = 9RM = 20 min
SisTF = 50RM = 70 min
LGTF= 39RM = 25 min
HessTF = 19RM = 20 min

I don't see how that falls out of line with the current standards.


 

Posted

I'll go with a) intention.

Purples are by definition ultra-rare. Which is more rare than "rare". So, purples were very likely originally intended to be more rare and more costly than pool c/d recipes.

---------

This is only my play experience, but I started out playing my toons from 1-50, then once they reached 50 I would basically shelve them and work on lower toons.

Eventually, I noticed that between the opportunity to get purple drops and the fact that on a 50 I could earn inf and merits faster, I had more incentive to play my 50s more. I was leveling new toons less (and producing lower level goods less). If I needed stuff for my lowbies, it was more efficient to buy that stuff with my 50.

Then A-merits came along. Earning A-merits was just as easy on my lower level toons as it was for my 50s. They even had the benefit of rolling lower level recipes (which some, including myself, do want). Playing a self-sustaining lower-level character became a lot more viable again from an earning standpoint. It wouldn't rake in quite the same inf as a 50, but it does relatively ok. You may not make quite as much on one LoTG or Numina, but the volume of random rolls makes up for it.


Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level

 

Posted

Quote:
Just remember that Alignment Merits are probably going to be tied into the end game content including Incarnate slotting etc., so reward merits may be considered as legacy as SOs are today.

They can't factor into the End game progression system too deeply because Rogues and Vigilantes cannot earn A-Merits.

They aren't going to close out the side switching aspect of the game to End game players, now are they?


When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...


BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
They can't factor into the End game progression system too deeply because Rogues and Vigilantes cannot earn A-Merits.

They aren't going to close out the side switching aspect of the game to End game players, now are they?
Could be that they will add more changes to allow Rogues and Vigilantes access to their own Merit system or maybe they want to push people to one side or the other. It's just speculation.

The fact that you can't take alignment merits with you is one 'lock in' already.


 

Posted

PumBumbler: At this point, I'm not sure we can ignore the "20M inf" in "50 merits+ 20M inf".Not when a typical "nice" Pool C is going for around 50M, crafted, and an LoTG is going for around 100M [or 100 merits and 40M, setting the price of "100 merits" at 60 M].

EDIT: I don't know what the price is for a min-level LoTG; I have only been watching the level 50's. It may still be 150M for a level 30, in which case "100 merits" is a much more significant 110M inf.

Chriffer: You managed to understate the number of AM's it takes for an LoTG by a factor of 2, AND understate the number of missions for an AM by a factor of 2.2 . Factor of 4.5 total. So, yeah, 22 missions over 2 days to equal 7 ITFs [presumably over 7 days] is still favoring the AMs, but not quite by the ratio you were suggesting.


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Last I bought LoTGs at 25 I got them in the 110M-120M range I think (wasn't much difference crafted or not). That was a couple weeks ago though. Worked nicely rolling them on my 50 and using the market to essentially swap down (been lucky - had a couple toons roll where 2 of the 5 recipes were LoTG...I need to do some leveling on a few toons to actually be able to slot the ones I have floating around).


Suggestions:
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Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
PumBumbler: At this point, I'm not sure we can ignore the "20M inf" in "50 merits+ 20M inf".Not when a typical "nice" Pool C is going for around 50M, crafted, and an LoTG is going for around 100M [or 100 merits and 40M, setting the price of "100 merits" at 60 M].

EDIT: I don't know what the price is for a min-level LoTG; I have only been watching the level 50's. It may still be 150M for a level 30, in which case "100 merits" is a much more significant 110M inf.
I'd concur.

One of my toons is sitting near 9900 merits.
I used to convert any merits exciding 9900 into A-Merits and buying level 25 LotG 7.5 with it, to be ready for i19.

I've found that I'm much faster earning 50 merits than 20 millions inf.
So to cover these 20M inf, I probably need to do 1-2 additional rolls (20 - 40 merits) making 1 A-Merit equal to 70-90 r-merits.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
PumBumbler: At this point, I'm not sure we can ignore the "20M inf" in "50 merits+ 20M inf".Not when a typical "nice" Pool C is going for around 50M, crafted, and an LoTG is going for around 100M [or 100 merits and 40M, setting the price of "100 merits" at 60 M].

EDIT: I don't know what the price is for a min-level LoTG; I have only been watching the level 50's. It may still be 150M for a level 30, in which case "100 merits" is a much more significant 110M inf.

Chriffer: You managed to understate the number of AM's it takes for an LoTG by a factor of 2, AND understate the number of missions for an AM by a factor of 2.2 . Factor of 4.5 total. So, yeah, 22 missions over 2 days to equal 7 ITFs [presumably over 7 days] is still favoring the AMs, but not quite by the ratio you were suggesting.
I think you mean 11 missions over 2 days.

So then converting merits with a 60% efficiency rate isn't as good as a free ride when buying LotGs directly, but you do get a two-for-one deal by rolling randoms when comparing AM to RM (1 AM for 5 random recipes versus 20 RM for 1 random recipe). Hard to say if that completely erases the 40% differential but it certainly lessens it.

I don't understand why people say that AMs are more efficient than RMs, since you are effectively gated from gaining more than 0.5 AM per day by tips but RMs are virtually a free for all. If you wanted to farm AMs anyhow you'd be doing all the ways necessary to generate AMs anyhow.

5.5 tip missions per day = 30 min = .5 AM

LGTF daily = 25 min = 39RM = ~.5AM (when factoring in 40% loss rate and 25 min)

Does that really favor tips over TFs? Play it smart and you can get loads of both anyhow. I'm saying the OP's dichotomy is a false dichotomy. They both work out the same in the end because the player will just choose whatever is most efficient in the end (within reason).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NordBlast View Post
...to cover these 20M inf, I probably need to do 1-2 additional rolls (20 - 40 merits) making 1 A-Merit equal to 70-90 r-merits.
By that metric, a recipe roll averages 13.3M for 20 merits on average. That is .67 million/merit.

Converting 50 merits + 20M to 1 alignment merit gives you 5 random recipes, which would net you 46.5M (5x13.3M-20M). That works out to .93 million/merit, or effectively 21.5 merits to make 20M back.

Therefore 1 A-Merit equals 50 R-merits + 21.5 R-merits, or effectively 72 merits needs to purchase 1 A-merit. Close to 40% loss.

PS. That also means that rolling for 20 merits isn't as efficient as rolling with 1 A merit.