How strong can D&D characters become when compared to super heroes?

Well I have most of the splat books from 3.5.
Most of the Complete series, Expanded Psionics,Spell Compendium.
Maybe I should put them up on ebay or amazon or something.

Anything can be abused. As a GM, we have to say, "If I don't own that book, it does not come into my game." as well as "Just becuase I pulled X from the book does not mean you get to use Y."

I have not read all the book yet, (the Psionics Guide), but if there is a loop hole like that, I squelch it.

And now a story from a previous game.

For this particular game the DM said anything goes, I want to see you break as much as you can.

So having been interested in shadow magic, I actually went ahead and built a Shadowmage from the Forgotten Realms setting.
Through class bonuses and some feat choices my character had absurd DC's for Illusion's and Necromancy effects. So much so that his level 1 spells had a DC of 19 (now remember base DC =10+Spell level+int mod).

So the game progressed and we ended up fighting a bbeg NPC Cleric(High Will and Fort saves), I opened with a Phantasmal Killer(Save vs Will to ignore, if that fails save vs fort or die) and low and behold the cleric actually failed both saves. The DM actually pulled a Helm of Telepathy out of nowhere so we actually had to fight this cleric, who was at a higher level than the party of which I was the lowest level.

Later on we found a collection of old 2E Drow weaponry(insane stats but eventually breaks in sunlight) realizing this I used Nystul's MAgic Aura to make the stuff appear as Normal magic weaponry with a bonus +1 higher than what the swords actually did, our Rogue with an absurdly high Bluf fSKill and miscellaneous bonuses from our Favored Soul that had morning buffs,afternnon buffs and night buffs convinced a store owner of the wepaons legitimacy (he couldn't see past the Aura, with his spells designed to see past such things) and we walked away with about a bazillion more gold than we should have been able to have for our level.

That was the last session for that particular game

Actually it does, it has a specific listing that it can send a phantasmal killer back at the caster. Of course the same effects that gave me absurd bonuses on casting the spells also gave absurd bonuses on defending against them.

Not after you have already failed the saving throw. Once the dice are down, it's too late.

Plus, you kinda have to be wearing it.



-np

I stand by my Morbo

Actually, it works however the DM wants it to work

Interpretation of the written rule is an art.

Also; fun > written rules.

It can be distinctly a lot less fun if you cannot trust that game mechanics will be consistently applied.

If you have a GM that constantly, arbitrarily alters the game rules at a whim, you end up with players constantly second guessing anything they want to do because they don't know how it will work.

I remember a scientific test with lab rats. If you set a task for them, like navigating a maze, and consistently applied whatever rules you set up for reward and punishment, you ended up with confident mice that eagerly explored and learned any new mazes you presented to them. If, however, you applied the rewards and punishments randomly and arbitrarily, you ended up with neurotic, fearful mice that didn't want to even move too much.

Rules provide an agreed upon framework in which to interact. If you cannot rely on that framework, you inevitably run into problems with trust and fairness.


-np

On that I think we can all agree. The rules serve two functions, a shared basis of expectation, and as dramatic tools for story telling. Wherever possible, they should be blended into both services at once.

To kind of get back on topic, I went back to looking at the skills of a 20th level monk. His "powers" as characters in Marvel or DC would see them:

Flurry of Blows: would make it seem like a monk could strike multiple times with superhuman speed, but many normal martial artists in Marvel and DC can do this
Unarmed Strike: A monk can hit as hard as anyone wielding a weapon
Evasion: Lowlevel superhuman agility
Fast Movement: Lowlevel superhuman speed
Still Mind: resistance to telepathic attacks
Ki Strike: Akin to Iron Fist's ability to gather chi in his fist, but a monk can manipulate what energy it is
Slow Fall: Unsure
Purity Of Body: Immunity to normal diseases
Wholeness Of Body: regeneration
Improved Evasion: A level of superhuman agility that could begin to rival Spider-Man
Diamond Body: immunity to poisons of all types
Abundant Step: in the same way Nightcrawler teleports, but a monk can only do this once a day
Diamond Soul: resistance to the effects spell have
Quivering Palm: a learned skill, as normal martial artists have learned one hit kill techniques as well
Timeless Body: Does not age
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: another learned skill, as normal people can learn multiple languages
Empty Body: Can make oneself ethereal
Perfect Self: a monk is no longer considered human

This doesn't include skills or feats.....but I can see some other classes rivaling many powerful heroes in Marvel/DC

Ok a little bit more on the Phantasmal Killer.

Gameplay wise the DM was rolling things in secret(which was fine we didn't care) so when I launched the killer he paused for a bit as we had a lot going on, he rolled some dice for ongoing effects and then said the this cleric uses their helm of telepathy to send it back.

I found out after the fact that my killer actually worked and yes we did get the helm as loot.

I've often thought "D&D isn't a fantasy game, it's a medieval superheroes game".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightphall Unarmed Strike: A monk can hit as hard as anyone wielding a weapon

Harder, at a given level of strength; 2d10 is more damage than any ordinary weapon. Of course, getting hit by Thor's hammer hurts more than a monk's punch, because a) Thor is probably stronger, and b) The hammer is (very) magical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightphall Slow Fall: Unsure

This is really just more super-acrobatics/agility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightphall Abundant Step: Tongue of the Sun and Moon: another learned skill, as normal people can learn multiple languages

Every language? Or for that matter, it allows communicating with "any living creature" so things like animals are included, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightphall Perfect Self: a monk is no longer considered human

Don't forget the resistance to non-magical weapons.

All my D&D books are packed away now, but as I recall a 20th Warlock would have some notable superpowers (flight, energy blasts, etc), too, as would anybody using Incarnum. Spellcasters are somewhat harder to classify, but the consensus at the Char. Op. board was that most primary spellcasters where more capable than an equivalently leveled and optimized Warlock.

Of course, some of the more extreme optimization results can go way up the scale; even ignoring Pun-Pun, there are a number of infinite damage tricks and other such things.

Absurd tricks aren't limited to 3.5 either.

A Two Weapon Ranger in 4E can actually have an infinite combo at level 21(granted this is epic level but an infinite is an infinite)

Starting with Twin Strike a Ranger at Will that lets you make 2 Attacks one Main hand and one off hand.

In Paragon Tier we add the Feat Heavy Blade Opportunity which lets you use an at will attack in place of a normal attack when taking an Opportunity Action.

Now in Epic Tier we take the Feat Two Weapon Flurry

Which allows you to make an off hand attack whenever you successfully hit with your main hand during an opportunity action with a -5 penalty.

With these feats I use Twin Strike(main hand twin) for an opp attack, if the main hand hits Flurry lets me make an off hand attack that can also be Twin Strike(off hand Twin). If the main hand attack of my off hand twin hits I can make another off hand twin which will set up more main hand attacks which in turn lead to more off hand twins.

As a result of this the target is dead unless I miss.