Why did I just kill an important person (spoilers)
By
Aquila_NA,
Posted on: 2010-08-23 24:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
*Looks at subject line*
That locks it. I'm staying off of every section of the City of Heroes boards save for Comic Culture until the large goblet of wine that is Going Rogue is bone dry.
This is getting out of hand.
I was in a similar situation on my first time through.
Wanted to go Loyalist/Responsibility all the way through but Cleo (yes, AND Michael) were just too cool for me to kill her. Figured that I could get away with offing Washington and continue going Loyalist. Problem is that this one decision locked me in to Resistance all the way past 20. Now, part of it may be that I was running with a SG mate who was doing mostly Resistance missions, I don't know. Wish I did know the all of the branching and how it actually effects alignment.
I think, that this would be the part of the story where the hero soldiers on, numbed by the shocking developments, but she's a trooper and keeps going and eventually...hopefully will find a way to see that what she is doing is right and proper.
And sadly, the Power arcs can go a ways towards reinforcing "What I am doing is right and helping the people of Praetoria." It is self aggrandizing but you don't have to do the self aggrandizing yourself. You're still genuinely helping people in Nova from a Loyalist perspective.
Sam... the point of using a <spoilers> alert is NOT to spoil anything for those not in the know.
You spoiled it in the title.
That said, yes, your RP reasoning is fine. She's been the cause of a great many innocent deaths by being part of the resistance. In exactly the same way that you have been part of a great many innocent deaths by being a loyalist.
The only way to win is not to play the game.
Be well, people of CoH.
Gotta side with Marcian on this one, Sam. The subject line is a spoiler in and of itself.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I killed Washington and still wound up Loyalist by the end of Imp City.|
Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
I was in a similar situation on my first time through.
Wanted to go Loyalist/Responsibility all the way through but Cleo (yes, AND Michael) were just too cool for me to kill her. Figured that I could get away with offing Washington and continue going Loyalist. Problem is that this one decision locked me in to Resistance all the way past 20. Now, part of it may be that I was running with a SG mate who was doing mostly Resistance missions, I don't know. Wish I did know the all of the branching and how it actually effects alignment. |
Spoilers!
I think I leapfrogged like this: Loyalist at start: Betrayed Washington: Went Resistance: Betrayed Jackhammer: went Loyalist again: Helped Arvin(sp): Went Resistance: Betrayed Wardog: now currently Loyalist at 17 in Neutropolis. Oh, I did turn off xp a few times.
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Yeah, that spoiler warning did not do any good, what with the spoiled item being in the title.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
*Looks at subject line*
That locks it. I'm staying off of every section of the City of Heroes boards save for Comic Culture until the large goblet of wine that is Going Rogue is bone dry. This is getting out of hand. |
Anyway, for the OP, not that it helps you after the fact, but one solution was to stand back and let Washington act alone - maybe buffing.
Or, maybe she resisted peaceful arrest...
As for your concern, it seemed pretty clear that Cleo is in the full Warden mode and willing to take all manner of heinous actions to meet her goals. (Think Golden Girl, only in the game.
) If your programming allows for scale balancing... you cover a lot of ground stopping a terrorist like that. As you probably know, there are some other Responsibility decisions to make. It will have to come down to 'greater good' or 'Cole's solution may not be ideal, but its better than...'
Or, perhaps, even if you've gained sentience there may still be a loyalty subroutine over-riding any logic routines...?
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
GG is totally a Crusader. 
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Originally Posted by Divus
I think, that this would be the part of the story where the hero soldiers on, numbed by the shocking developments, but she's a trooper and keeps going and eventually...hopefully will find a way to see that what she is doing is right and proper.
And sadly, the Power arcs can go a ways towards reinforcing "What I am doing is right and helping the people of Praetoria." It is self aggrandizing but you don't have to do the self aggrandizing yourself. You're still genuinely helping people in Nova from a Loyalist perspective. |
Well said, Divus.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Good job Sam changing the title.
I had the same problem Aqua did in Beta. My Loyalist character let her live, and was put into the Reistance camp. The reasoning I used on my character was that this info could be useful later on in his career.
I think the idea of this mission is to show you how different Paretorian society is from normal society - after 1-50 levels of the game going out of its way to tell you that you're only ever arresting or defeating suspects, within a few levels of the Paretorian content, the game is inviting you to decide which person you'd prefer to kill.
Placing this misison so early on in the story seems like a very deliberate act to show you just what the place is like compared to Paragon City.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Well, it seems someone already solved the title problem for me, so no need to change that any more. Sorry about that, guys.
As for the RP reasons, I kind of wanted to go with something more than just "She's resistance! Hiss! It burns!!!" Doesn't really work for me as the author of that character. With Monroe it was an easy choice (not sure if there WAS a choice, but the dialogue tree implied it), in that the guy doesn't have a leg to stand on. He's a cutthroat criminal who'd, to quote White, "strangle his own mother" for the sake of power, control and most probably money. Those suits aren't cheap. Even with the Crusader blockheads it was interesting because they kept saying things like "Why would we NOT blow up a hospital?" and "We should have started working with murdering criminals earlier!" and "Who's on dog-kicking duty today?" and so forth, so it was clear they were the bad guys.
But with Cleo... She did look like she was trying to do good and I'm not sure how many people she hurt directly. Well, that dead PPD guy she sold out, obviously and... Well, me, can't forget me. But that's not quite the "hospital blowing up, works with murderers" kind of problematic that has an easy solution.
I guess I could default to the old standby of "I want peace and security, but I want it the right way!" which is what I used to justify saving the Council in Mass Effect, and indeed, sending honest-to-god hard-working citizens to their deaths seems like the wrong way. Who are we really protecting here if we sacrifice civilians without a second thought? Even if it's one civilian, it's still one civilian too many. But then how do I justify taking HER out in return without being a hypocrite? Can I really argue that the cop was innocent in that he was doing his job but Cleo wasn't because she did this on purpose?
And I guess a Chief Interrogator's decision - even if it's a death sentences Judge Dread would be proud of - is final. But that seems like more of an excuse.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The Conumdrum is that the Interrorgator did it to circumvent the system because the Praetors would not punish her to his satisfaction. That's what stuck in my craw. I think the only reason I did not take what Cleopatra did so personally is because I did most of Reese's missions prior to that, and I wanted to save his morality mission for later so I went to Washington. I just did not think it was that unusual that someone in the PPD was trying to kill me. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Well, it seems someone already solved the title problem for me, so no need to change that any more. Sorry about that, guys.
As for the RP reasons, I kind of wanted to go with something more than just "She's resistance! Hiss! It burns!!!" Doesn't really work for me as the author of that character. With Monroe it was an easy choice (not sure if there WAS a choice, but the dialogue tree implied it), in that the guy doesn't have a leg to stand on. He's a cutthroat criminal who'd, to quote White, "strangle his own mother" for the sake of power, control and most probably money. Those suits aren't cheap. Even with the Crusader blockheads it was interesting because they kept saying things like "Why would we NOT blow up a hospital?" and "We should have started working with murdering criminals earlier!" and "Who's on dog-kicking duty today?" and so forth, so it was clear they were the bad guys. But with Cleo... She did look like she was trying to do good and I'm not sure how many people she hurt directly. Well, that dead PPD guy she sold out, obviously and... Well, me, can't forget me. But that's not quite the "hospital blowing up, works with murderers" kind of problematic that has an easy solution. I guess I could default to the old standby of "I want peace and security, but I want it the right way!" which is what I used to justify saving the Council in Mass Effect, and indeed, sending honest-to-god hard-working citizens to their deaths seems like the wrong way. Who are we really protecting here if we sacrifice civilians without a second thought? Even if it's one civilian, it's still one civilian too many. But then how do I justify taking HER out in return without being a hypocrite? Can I really argue that the cop was innocent in that he was doing his job but Cleo wasn't because she did this on purpose? And I guess a Chief Interrogator's decision - even if it's a death sentences Judge Dread would be proud of - is final. But that seems like more of an excuse. |
What I had gotten from that is those stories is that the Resistance are tools and everyone puts them to use. So it did not seem that different....plus from the perspective of overwhelming ego, I wasn't in any danger. (Okay maybe titanic ego, I had been doing Power arcs).
I don't know...I feel sorry for your character now. She's discovering that humans suck.
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There's only one "heroic" response in that scenario where you can stay a Loyalist...don't do the mission. Outlevel it and move on. If you do that mission, you have to make, in my opinion, a morally repugnant choice. Neither option is acceptable behavior.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
OK, if you get past the spoilers tag, you probably know what I'm talking about. The Nova Praetoria Responsibility storyline ends with an unpleasant revalation: Cleopatra - Praetor White's cheerful girlfriend - is a resistance Warden who just betrayed you and set you up to be killed like a dog. Oops! But Interrogator Washington has a solution to this - kill her, instead!
Ugh... Here's the thing, though - I did. I'm determined to get this character all the way through as a Loyalist so I'm basically set into taking the Loyalist options when presented, but I'm also set on making her a hero, which means I need to try and avoid jerkass options wherever I can. The problem is that the jerkass option and the Loyalist option coincided in this case. And that ain't good. So here's my question - how can I justify this for my character. Now, I know what you're thinking, o Golden Girl: "You can't!" Well, since this is written fiction where anything is possible with enough spin, I'd like to avoid the fact that, no, I really can't justify it and try to come up with a way to spin this into something that's at least somewhat nonjerkass. The character I'm working with so far is... Well, she's a robotic construct who gained sentience basically on her own and she feels responsible for people in general, but rarely any specific person in particular. So I was kind of working off "You helped me save a hospital, but how many people did you sent to be murdered by Crusaders?" but the thing is... I don't know. She may not have at all. So I'm stumped on this, and I could really use some help. |
Ironically, the Powers path is by far the most heroic path for Loyalist. You just have to try your best to RP that you aren't loving all the fame.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That's really what bugged me about this, to be honest. I know the Loyalists are trying to be the good guys, but I still feel it would have been a bit more... Pleasant, I suppose, if it were a choice between two "right" options rather than between two "wrong" ones. But then, I suppose that's the harsh reality of Praetoria.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
There's only one "heroic" response in that scenario where you can stay a Loyalist...don't do the mission. Outlevel it and move on. If you do that mission, you have to make, in my opinion, a morally repugnant choice. Neither option is acceptable behavior.
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And, yes, I know I could have avoided the moral choice and just gone to speak with Kang without introduction, but that feels like avoiding responsibility. I want to involve my characters into Praetoria as much as I can in terms of decisions and morality, and that means sticking with it even when the going is not pleasant. In a way, I can't say this is a bad situation from a writer's standpoint, because it really serves as a wake-up call for all the puppy-eyed loyalists. This isn't an easy struggle, and sometimes, hard decisions have to be made. And this one had to be, simply because Washington decided to be a dick about it.
But I guess what bugs me the most is that this is the complete opposite of what I had my character do with Pell. With him, I chose mercy (as opposed to murder) because my character is out to protect the people of Praetoria, not avenge them. The point is to stop the killing, not to perpetuate it. Bad thing is, in the Cleo case, it was unavoidable because it was either her or Washington. SOMEONE would die, which is unfortunate.
The Warden moral choices are rather easier, in that at least it doesn't feel like there could have been a third option. Either you free the Seers or you don't. Either you let the Destroyer go or you don't. Here... The morality felt a bit forced, but I guess it is what it is.
I'm probably going to go with "You don't have innocent people murdered and be surprised with the consequences." And, I just realised that Cleo wasn't exactly up to taking responsibility for her actions. She wasn't all "There was no other way." but rather "I didn't do it! I helped you! *puppy dog eyes*" Gave me a serious case of not-falling-for-that-again-itis, though it didn't make things any easier.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sometimes we are trapped by the options the devs have given us. I didn't like the choice here or at the very least how it is presented.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's really what bugged me about this, to be honest. I know the Loyalists are trying to be the good guys, but I still feel it would have been a bit more... Pleasant, I suppose, if it were a choice between two "right" options rather than between two "wrong" ones. But then, I suppose that's the harsh reality of Praetoria.
And, yes, I know I could have avoided the moral choice and just gone to speak with Kang without introduction, but that feels like avoiding responsibility. I want to involve my characters into Praetoria as much as I can in terms of decisions and morality, and that means sticking with it even when the going is not pleasant. In a way, I can't say this is a bad situation from a writer's standpoint, because it really serves as a wake-up call for all the puppy-eyed loyalists. This isn't an easy struggle, and sometimes, hard decisions have to be made. And this one had to be, simply because Washington decided to be a dick about it. But I guess what bugs me the most is that this is the complete opposite of what I had my character do with Pell. With him, I chose mercy (as opposed to murder) because my character is out to protect the people of Praetoria, not avenge them. The point is to stop the killing, not to perpetuate it. Bad thing is, in the Cleo case, it was unavoidable because it was either her or Washington. SOMEONE would die, which is unfortunate. The Warden moral choices are rather easier, in that at least it doesn't feel like there could have been a third option. Either you free the Seers or you don't. Either you let the Destroyer go or you don't. Here... The morality felt a bit forced, but I guess it is what it is. I'm probably going to go with "You don't have innocent people murdered and be surprised with the consequences." And, I just realised that Cleo wasn't exactly up to taking responsibility for her actions. She wasn't all "There was no other way." but rather "I didn't do it! I helped you! *puppy dog eyes*" Gave me a serious case of not-falling-for-that-again-itis, though it didn't make things any easier. |
But as long as I feel someone is okay with blowing up hospitals then I am okay with feeding them to the Hamidon.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
The problems loyalist players and Washington face is that the internal politics of the dictatorship leave you with only the one option given in the mission.
Marauder is very open about his contempt for the PPD, so if the PPD then go out are arrest his girlfriend for being a "Resistance spy", it just looks like a petty attempt at revenge, as they can't touch Marauder himself.
Normally, the standard Praetorian law enforcement procedure would be to arrest Cleo, have her tortured for information about the Resistance, and then imprison or execute her - but her reationship with Marauder, and his ties with Tyrant, makes the arrest and torture option a non-starter, so your only choice is to skip straight to the execution stage.
From a Praetorian law enforcement point of view, what you're doing is totally legal, and it's the internal faction politics that have forced your hand.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
My guy isn't particularly "heroic" so, once it was clear he was set up as a patsy,
Cleo was toast 
But, for a character who is actually strugglin with the Heroic Morality, one
way to (possibly) rationalize it with Cleo is like the Lethal Weapon movie
(where the Bad guy is diplomatically protected).
Given Cleo's connections, a simple arrest isn't probably going to stop her.
Certainly, there's enough grey area for her to wiggle out of trial - especially
with her (your) other successes (ie. Hospital plot, etc) and her relationship
with Praetor White and past work with others.
Basically, you're in the spot where you probably can't stop her any other way
from sacrificing more people to suit her "agenda" going forward.
So... "Your diplomatic immunity has just been revoked"... becomes the answer
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The problems loyalist players and Washington face is that the internal politics of the dictatroship leave you with only the one option given in the mission.
Marauder is very open about his contempt for the PPD, so if the PPD then go out are arrest his girlfriend for being a "Resistance spy", it just looks like a petty attempt at revenge, as they can't touch Marauder himself. Normally, the standard Praetorian law enforcement procedure would be to arrest Cleo, have her tortured for information about the Resistance, and then imprison or execute her - but her reationship with Marauder, and his ties with Tyrant, makes the arrest and torture option a non-starter, so your only choice is to skip straight to the execution stage. From a Praetorian law enforcement point of view, what you're doing is totally legal, and it's the internal faction politics that have forced your hand. |
Spot on GG. Best post you've had in similar discussions, bar none.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
I'll admit, I had a few doubts about that one, too. I'm playing a Praetorian of my four color true Hero, and trying to keep her more or less the same, albeit a bit harsher. So the choice comes up. Kill Cleo or kill Washington. On a character who'd always choose the non-lethal option, just like her Primal. Yeah...
So the breakdown went like this:
Cleo helped me stop a bombing. That's good. She also sold me out to the resistance... that's bad. She deliberately set me up to get killed. That is also bad. Killing her will probably get me a faceful of Marauder's fists. That is also bad. Washington helped me track down a serial killer. That's good. He also warned me against the ambush, although a little late.
*Click* You have chosen to aid the Loyalists.
Sorry Cleo, but I don't take kindly to betrayal. Then I let Washington beat her to death, and told White all about it. Then got out of the way as fast as possible. No need to stay within punch range of him after delivering that news... Then I headed to Imperial City where another serial killer case awaited. This city has a lot of those, it seems.
It looks weird to see other players stand where Cleo used to be and talk to nobody, though.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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That's actually where I suspect the problem arises. From a game mechanics perspective, either Washington disappears as a contact or Cleo disappears as a contact. I'm not sure BOTH is even feasible. So we have two choices - either Washington stays and Cleo out and out dies, or Washington dies and cleo stays exactly where she is, as a Resistance mole. That's my problem - the game is forcing me to pick sides in a way that events don't actually require.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
My guy isn't particularly "heroic" so, once it was clear he was set up as a patsy,
Cleo was toast But, for a character who is actually strugglin with the Heroic Morality, one way to (possibly) rationalize it with Cleo is like the Lethal Weapon movie (where the Bad guy is diplomatically protected). Given Cleo's connections, a simple arrest isn't probably going to stop her. Certainly, there's enough grey area for her to wiggle out of trial - especially with her (your) other successes (ie. Hospital plot, etc) and her relationship with Praetor White and past work with others. Basically, you're in the spot where you probably can't stop her any other way from sacrificing more people to suit her "agenda" going forward. So... "Your diplomatic immunity has just been revoked"... becomes the answer Regards, 4 |
If I had a bit more of a free-ranged choice, I'd beat up Washington, let Cleo scram for the sewers, then leave the evidence with him to do as he pleases. But I guess it's assumed that Cleo will stay and fight for her position, rather than running away. If I were Paragon Shepard, I'm sure I'd be able to pick exactly that kind of middle ground solution, but in Praetoria, that's not possible.
On the other hand, assuming she would fight to stay in her position rather than running for the tunnels, this actually gives me an excuse to kill her. If I had to choose between Cleo dead and Cleo on the lamb, I'd pick the latter. However, I don't. I have to choose between Cleo dead and Cleo as a Resistance mole with Michael White's blessing. THAT actually gives me a much easier justification.
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Interestingly, Responsibility arcs do try really hard to paint you as trying to be the good guy in a bad world (ironically, given Praetoria's gleam), but the problem is that they end up as really depressing versions of Warden story arcs. Where Warden story arcs end in with the good guys victorious and the bad guys defeated, Responsibility arcs end with good guys destroying themselves to protect decisions of questionable morality. Dr. Steffard's fate is a good example, spoilers spoilers spoilers.
In the Warden arc by Dr. Steffard, the your Power Division warden helps Steffard uncover a plot and save a psychic, and eventually has your warden help a Seer free the other Seers. In the Responsibility arc, Steffard is being helped by Crusaders and is cutting up Seers and basically yanking their implants out of their heads. His fate is to eventually be captured and his Seers returned to the network. Talk about depressing.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah, I think GG hit the nail on the head here. It's not a nice choice, but it's probably a choice that a lot of law enforcement officers who are going up against someone "above the law" have to face. The majority of the time, they'll do the legal thing and do nothing. But in this case, your hand is not being forced by your own ideals of morality, but by Washington's. You've got to decide whether his ideal of a better Praetorian society is worth both you and he being corrupted in order to achieve it.
Which is actually a very Vigilante thing.
This is basically a version of the Sacrificial Lamb trope. In order to establish that this is a Darker And Edgier Black and Grey Morality World Half Empty(*), they present you with this sort of choice right out the gate. And they purposefully put it in the Loyalist Responsibility route, just in case you were getting any ideas about upholding the law and being a good person just like you could in CoH.
(*) Be glad I didn't link to all three of those.
Character index
Going into this mission, I had hoped to be able to capture her and let Praetor White deal with her. I assumed his dedication to Cole and Praetoria would override his attachment to her. It did, sort of, but I still had to kill her. It's a little disappointing that all decisions are binary rather than allowing you to have meaningful input. Of course, I understand why, given the limitations of the medium.
OK, if you get past the spoilers tag, you probably know what I'm talking about. The Nova Praetoria Responsibility storyline ends with an unpleasant revalation: Cleopatra - Praetor White's cheerful girlfriend - is a resistance Warden who just betrayed you and set you up to be killed like a dog. Oops! But Interrogator Washington has a solution to this - kill her, instead!
Ugh...
Here's the thing, though - I did. I'm determined to get this character all the way through as a Loyalist so I'm basically set into taking the Loyalist options when presented, but I'm also set on making her a hero, which means I need to try and avoid jerkass options wherever I can. The problem is that the jerkass option and the Loyalist option coincided in this case. And that ain't good.
So here's my question - how can I justify this for my character. Now, I know what you're thinking, o Golden Girl: "You can't!" Well, since this is written fiction where anything is possible with enough spin, I'd like to avoid the fact that, no, I really can't justify it and try to come up with a way to spin this into something that's at least somewhat nonjerkass.
The character I'm working with so far is... Well, she's a robotic construct who gained sentience basically on her own and she feels responsible for people in general, but rarely any specific person in particular. So I was kind of working off "You helped me save a hospital, but how many people did you sent to be murdered by Crusaders?" but the thing is... I don't know. She may not have at all. So I'm stumped on this, and I could really use some help.