Red Beacons in a Blue base? (& vice versa)
By
American_Angel,
Posted on: 2010-08-19 23:30 in Base Construction
By Design.
Archetypes have merged across Red/Yellow/Grey/Blue.
The Markets have been merged across Red/Yellow/Grey/Blue.
Bases? Not so much.
Why not?
Because doing that would require the Devs actually invest some ... er, I mean, ANY ... resources into Bases.
When all other divisions between players fall, gotta keep the Bases divided up ... you know?
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Well crap, this sucks. :/
My Lego Models http://www.flickr.com/photos/30369639@N07/ lemur lad: God you can't be that stupid... I'm on at the same time as you for once, and not 20 minutes into it you give me something worth petitioning?Lady-Dee: Hey my fat keeps me warm in the winter and shady in the summer.
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pretty much sums it up |
Originally Posted by Robo_Knight
Well crap, this sucks. :/
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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Except to say the limitations are even worse. As a viligante, not only is your SG prohibited from making redside teleporters... you aren't allowed in any villain base that have them (even if you are teamed).
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Originally Posted by Impish Kat
pretty much sums it up
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One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Oh c'mon, don't tell me this surprises you Robo.|
Originally Posted by Robo_Knight
Well crap, this sucks. :/
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We discussed this back in 2009, remember? When the devs announced their plans back then I said that they couldn't possibly fit in anything for bases prior to 2011.
And it looks like I was right. Not that it took a rocket scientist or anything to figure it out.
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Fixed it for you.
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Originally Posted by Peregrine_Falcon
Not that it took a rock scientist or anything to figure it out.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Actually, everyone, during one of the recent Q&As, Positron said that they were considering merging SGs and VGs. They are "looking into it" and said it's an option if they can make sure it does not "break the system".|
Originally Posted by Little Shack
I've got a vigilante that has done some exploring in the Rogue Isles, and now the Blue side SG has earned the beacons. (They show up in the SG Exploration badge menu on the compass).
However, during base editing, these beacons do not appear in the Place Item window, so no TP'ing from the SG base to villain maps. I'm guessing this is by design, but maybe a bug?? It would be a really nice feature for vigilantes/rogues. |
So it's possible that those beacons could actually become active in the future.
The True Question
Is this the right thing to do? While the benefits would be awesome (Prestige generated by both heroes and villains), if the game no longer seperates the two, is it truly a "City of Heroes"?
In all my years as a comic reader, I never ones saw a base shared by both the good guys and the bad guys. Yes, I've seen bases taken over by one or the other, but not shared.
And if they take it that far
They may as well do away with archetypes altogether. I mean when you think about it, why do a persons power sets determine if a person is a hero or villain? Shouldn't it be a persons actions?
Consider mutants. If they are born with the ability to turn invisible and fight, why does society view them as villains? Isn't that a form of racism? (in a fictional environment of course; I don't want people thinking I can't tell the difference, lol)
Even worse, if persons have those certain abilities, up till now they were forced to become criminals...so in a way, Paragon City birthed it's own enemies through prejudice.
That hasn't really changed even now. The new zones are a seperate system from paragon, so it doesn't remove the prejudice.
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I don't know why I'm going step into this too but I'm going to try anyway for the sake of clarfication. I mean no offense and you are certainly entitled to your opinions. But again, in still another thread, you are raising (and I think confusing others with) four very different points:|
Originally Posted by American_Angel
Actually, everyone, during one of the recent Q&As, Positron said that they were considering merging SGs and VGs. They are "looking into it" and said it's an option if they can make sure it does not "break the system".
So it's possible that those beacons could actually become active in the future. The True Question Is this the right thing to do? While the benefits would be awesome (Prestige generated by both heroes and villains), if the game no longer seperates the two, is it truly a "City of Heroes"? In all my years as a comic reader, I never ones saw a base shared by both the good guys and the bad guys. Yes, I've seen bases taken over by one or the other, but not shared. And if they take it that far They may as well do away with archetypes altogether. I mean when you think about it, why do a persons power sets determine if a person is a hero or villain? Shouldn't it be a persons actions? Consider mutants. If they are born with the ability to turn invisible and fight, why does society view them as villains? Isn't that a form of racism? (in a fictional environment of course; I don't want people thinking I can't tell the difference, lol) Even worse, if persons have those certain abilities, up till now they were forced to become criminals...so in a way, Paragon City birthed it's own enemies through prejudice. That hasn't really changed even now. The new zones are a seperate system from paragon, so it doesn't remove the prejudice. |
(1) The ability to travel to "the other side" (note: this could be achieved without cross faction sg/vg make up just by giving both hero and villain bases all teleporters) is not the same as:
(2) Temporary access for heroes and villains to a base while teamed (fighting for "a common cause") for the purpose of travel which is not the same as:
(3) Hero and villain cross faction bases (what you call shared bases.) which is not at all the same as:
(4) Doing away with archtypes. (I got what you meant in another thread with the "blaster/tank" reference. But that is more of a balance issue than a good guy/bad guy thing). I'm afraid the horse has already left the barn when it comes to archtypes and being either a good or bad guy. That was the point of GR. A person's powerset does not (any longer) determine if a person is a hero or a villain (past level 20). All powersets, however, should be balanced in their make up.
Each of these is a separate argument. As to how far the devs will "take it" remains to be seen. I can give you a hint where I stand based on your input above... You can call it "City of Potatos" if you want... Just give me those awesome benefits you mentioned.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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I tried to make the same arguments in the last few weeks of beta (after the Loyalty program was let in. It seem that large amounts of players want CoH to stand for City of Homogeneous rather than City of Heroes. They want all the benefits of a single base no matter which side of the fence they are on because their villains are "heroes in disguise".|
Originally Posted by American_Angel
The True Question
Is this the right thing to do? While the benefits would be awesome (Prestige generated by both heroes and villains), if the game no longer seperates the two, is it truly a "City of Heroes"? In all my years as a comic reader, I never ones saw a base shared by both the good guys and the bad guys. Yes, I've seen bases taken over by one or the other, but not shared. |
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Originally Posted by Fire_Away
(1) The ability to travel to "the other side" (note: this could be achieved without cross faction sg/vg make up just by giving both hero and villain bases all teleporters)
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Originally Posted by Fire_Away
(2) Temporary access for heroes and villains to a base while teamed (fighting for "a common cause") for the purpose of travel
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Originally Posted by Fire_Away
(3) Hero and villain cross faction bases (what you call shared bases.)
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Originally Posted by Fire_Away
(4) Doing away with archtypes. (I got what you meant in another thread with the "blaster/tank" reference. But that is more of a balance issue than a good guy/bad guy thing). I'm afraid the horse has already left the barn when it come to archtypes and being either a good or bad guy. That was the point of GR. A person's powerset does not (any longer) determine if a person is a hero or a villain (past level 20). All powersets, however, should be balanced in their make up.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
The way I see it, when it comes to gameplay, more OPTIONS are always a good thing.
Here's the beauty about having multiple options: you can choose not to use the ones you don't feel the need for. At the same time, other players have the choice to play the game how they like. Much like power proliferation or customization allows flexibility in creating interesting and unique characters. Isn't that nifty?
A good RP'er will use the options that appeal to them, while ignoring the ones that don't. But if someone can't get around the very existence or contemplation of other options, they are not that good of an rp'er to begin with. Using storyline or rp to justify a lack of gameplay options for other players is just not good game design.
The beauty of CoH/V is the abundance of gameplay options. It allows players to create their own stories. Without OPTIONS, this GAME would just be "City of Script".
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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Well, this is kind of a dumb question, actually. Should the phrasing of a game NAME dictate the mechanics of the game? I don't think so.|
Originally Posted by American_Angel
The True Question
Is this the right thing to do? While the benefits would be awesome (Prestige generated by both heroes and villains), if the game no longer seperates the two, is it truly a "City of Heroes"? |
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| In all my years as a comic reader, I never ones saw a base shared by both the good guys and the bad guys. Yes, I've seen bases taken over by one or the other, but not shared. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Yes, a hero and a villain have teamed up in comics...but that is rare, and they almost NEVER shared a base of operations, except when confronting planetwide threats or greater.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Well, this is kind of a dumb question, actually. Should the phrasing of a game NAME dictate the mechanics of the game? I don't think so.
Define "shared". There have been countless incidents where heroes and villains have teamed up on a short-term basis. This would be consistent with allowing base access while teamed. |
(such as infinity gauntlet or such)
Here's the thing though. Most of the people that frequented this website before the game came out know that the genre for this game is very picky.
True, to a few, this is just a game.
But to the majority of CoX players, this is the fullfilment of the desire to play within a specific genre that before this game came out, was almost non-existant in PC Gaming.
You're talking about people who learned to read on DC or Marvel Comics before they even attended school.
And the thing is...those are the people this game was designed for originally.
So, regardless of convenience to the players, you will find that most would rather maintain a level of loyalty to the genre itself.
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And FYI, I think perhaps that group has a voice, for it is likely the same group the Devs addressed in the creation of Mission Architect.
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*sigh* I'm not going to bother typing all of this up again, so I'll simply quote my post from the Beta forums showing how wrong it was for Snow Globe to claim that villains are never allowed into hero bases or vice-versa in the Super Hero genre. |
Originally Posted by American_Angel
Yes, a hero and a villain have teamed up in comics...but that is rare, and they almost NEVER shared a base of operations, except when confronting planetwide threats or greater.
(such as infinity gauntlet or such) Here's the thing though. Most of the people that frequented this website before the game came out know that the genre for this game is very picky. True, to a few, this is just a game. But to the majority of CoX players, this is the fullfilment of the desire to play within a specific genre that before this game came out, was almost non-existant in PC Gaming. You're talking about people who learned to read on DC or Marvel Comics before they even attended school. And the thing is...those are the people this game was designed for originally. So, regardless of convenience to the players, you will find that most would rather maintain a level of loyalty to the genre itself. EDIT: And FYI, I think perhaps that group has a voice, for it is likely the same group the Devs addressed in the creation of Mission Architect. |
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Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
Seriously?
Shame on you for your lack of actual knowledge influencing your argument then, Snow. I don't know your age, but you're apparently unaware of events from the 1990s stretching back to the 1960s in Marvel Comics alone. Just off the top of my head... In the 1980s, Magneto led the X-Men and taught the New Mutants in Xavier's stead. He was, in current CoH terms, a rogue. During this time he openly courted affiliations with the Hellfire Club's Inner Circle, seeking to become their "Grey King" at the same time that he was headmaster for Xavier's School For Gifted Youngsters. It was later revealed that he stole technology from the X-Men during this time, which he used to transform Greymalkin into Avalon. Magneto is the X-Men's oldest and deadliest foe, and if he doesn't qualify as a villain or rogue for the purposes of this discussion, nobody does. I'll throw a few more out there though. Earlier in the 80s, Rogue, when she joined the X-Men, was... well... a rogue, having run away from the Brotherhood in the hopes that the X-Men could help her learn to control her powers. Nobody on the team trusted her until she finally displayed a measure of self-sacrifice and nearly died in the process. In the 90s, Sabretooth was at best a rogue when he was taken in by the government as a member X-Factor. Same goes for Mystique. That's probably being generous, I might add. They were on the same team with Polaris, Havok, Forge, Guido, and Wild Child if I recall. In the 60s, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were rogues who had barely left the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants when they joined the Avengers, forming the new core of the group with Captain America and Hawkeye (another former criminal who had been one of Iron Man's enemies previously, as the partner of the Black Widow). If you need more examples, feel free to ask. I could probably do this for a few weeks before I run out. That's without even resorting to looking at the comics of the past decade or before delving into my memory of DC's past. I'm sure there will always be people who will say that story-wise it doesn't make sense for villains or rogues to be allowed into a hero base, or vice-versa. The truth is that nothing is ever so blatantly black and white, and any attempts to place artificial restraints on the system in this manner are easily viewed as arbitrary and artificial. If you don't want it to happen in your group, then don't allow it in your group. Not every group plays by the same rules. Not every story can be told within the artificial barriers. I'm not expecting any kind of reversal in this area for the launch of GR and i18. But that does not mean that the idea should be ignored, as it is a logical extension and outgrowth of this expansion's premise. As others have pointed out, code had to be added to prevent villains and heroes from being able to enter one another's bases. I won't pretend to claim that I know it's easy or difficult to reverse those changes, as the standard code rant applies here. Let the devs decide on that though, for it's not for us to debate that. If SGs themselves can't be open to all factions joining, cross-faction base entry at the very least should be allowed if at all possible within the code of the game's engine. Opening things up the way they have is a tremendous start and is something to be applauded. More choices and fewer clear-cut borders are what this expansion promises. Let's see how much the devs can open up the world for characters now with this expansion. |
If you want to argue that it's for game balance reasons, then that's fine, but don't argue story/plot/genre when you don't provide correct information to share with the class please. If the genre itself allows for these things to happen on a regular basis for the last 50 years or so, the least we can do is expect that the game could allow rogue/vigilante teammates into opposing faction bases while part of their teams.
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Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
*Brofists the Demon Hunter* Sing it, brother!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Should vigilantes/rouges be allowed into a hero or villain base to use its facilities? YES.
Should Heroes and Villains be allowed to PERMANENTLY SHARE a supergroup and base? I'll lean towards no, unless the dev team decides to do away with ALL faction-based restrictions, which of course would make the entire system they just spent a year and a half making a bit redundant. All i want is consistency =)
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Yeah, I can agree with this to a certain extent as well. FWIW in the Beta thread about this, I even said at one point I didn't think that full on Villains and full on Heroes should be in the same SG, and I have a very liberal view of the characters in this game (having red side versions of multiple hero characters). I can see story reasons (and precedent) for alignments in SGs to overlap a bit more than they do, but I don't see a full 360-degree full-time group being necessarily a good thing. Leave that to canonical groups like Vanguard or the Midnighters.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Should vigilantes/rouges be allowed into a hero or villain base to use its facilities? YES.
Should Heroes and Villains be allowed to PERMANENTLY SHARE a supergroup and base? I'll lean towards no, unless the dev team decides to do away with ALL faction-based restrictions, which of course would make the entire system they just spent a year and a half making a bit redundant. All i want is consistency =) |
Conversely though, I don't see so much of an issue necessarily with having SG-VG coalitions. Nothing says your coalition allies have to be on friendly terms all the time. They might just be people you can call on when push comes to shove, the people you gather when the whole world (or universe, multiverse, et al.) is on the line.
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Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
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And all this ignores game balance as villain/rogues can use villain bases which is balanced by the fact that heroes/vigilantes can use hero bases. It also ignores the balance of "Access to zones previously barred" vs "Ease of travel". |
Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
If you want to argue that it's for game balance reasons, then that's fine, but don't argue story/plot/genre when you don't provide correct information to share with the class please. If the genre itself allows for these things to happen on a regular basis for the last 50 years or so, the least we can do is expect that the game could allow rogue/vigilante teammates into opposing faction bases while part of their teams.
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In other words, what are you willing to give up for the ability to go to the other sides zones and do missions there?
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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You're already giving up options for being a "grey" morality, Snow. You lose Hero/Villain merits and the ability to use them to purchase Purples and PVP IOs. The Hero and Villain "lounges" also have direct ports to each of the signature TF/SFs for each side. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And all this ignores game balance as villain/rogues can use villain bases which is balanced by the fact that heroes/vigilantes can use hero bases. It also ignores the balance of "Access to zones previously barred" vs "Ease of travel".
In other words, what are you willing to give up for the ability to go to the other sides zones and do missions there? |
That's what was billed as the reward of staying true to your "pure" Hero of Villain alignment leading up to this. Not being unable to get around with your teammates shouldn't be as much of a problem as it is, but who would seriously have thought it was a good idea to have a Rogue hoof it from PI to Crey's Folly to Boomtown to IP to Atlas as part of a blue side team running Tips? And before you say it can't happen, that's exactly the path my MM had to take the other day for blue side tips.
You have to go without using Ouro because that's two separate instances for hero and villains. Hero SGs and Villain SGs can't currently place the beacons for the opposite side's zones, regardless of whether the required exploration for the SG Exploration badge is completed.
So at first glance, an option that makes sense (story-wise, mechanics-wise, or otherwise) is to allow teammates to use your base, regardless of their alignment if your SG chooses to allow teammates in. Doesn't seem like rocket surgery to me that this would be an avenue to look at, considering they had to actually add lines of code to prevent opposing factions' entry when bases and coalitions first showed up. In the Beta forums, there was even a player who pointed out that their SG is still coalitioned to a VG from before this was prevented, and that both SG and VG can still enter the other's bases freely.
They've publicly mentioned extending some use of SGs to the opposing factions. They're already saying they want to look at doing something if it won't "break the game." Let's see what they can do.
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Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
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Specifically referring to this part:|
Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
They've publicly mentioned extending some use of SGs to the opposing factions. They're already saying they want to look at doing something if it won't "break the game." Let's see what they can do.
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tomzak : can heroes and villains be in the same super group? Monday August 16, 2010 4:49 Positron: Not yet, but we're re-looking at how to make that happen, because we know a lot of you are asking for it. Don't want to break the game to make it happen though Monday August 16, 2010 4:49 |
I don't think I'm gonna get that though.
All that is planned fails. All that is born dies.
All that is built crumbles. This will always be true.
But memories remain, And that is beautiful.
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Thanks for grabbing that specific part of the transcript, Feign. I was in a bit of a rush when I posted earlier and didn't have time to do it properly. |
Originally Posted by Feign
Specifically referring to this part:
I would kind of like for Snow Globe to admit he was wrong about the devs' assumed motivation for keeping Rogues out of hero bases and Vigilantes out of Villain ones. I don't think I'm gonna get that though. |
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Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
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What, that allowing cross faction use would break things? I've brought that up several times, and every single time somebody brings up the RP argument.|
Originally Posted by Feign
Specifically referring to this part:
I would kind of like for Snow Globe to admit he was wrong about the devs' assumed motivation for keeping Rogues out of hero bases and Vigilantes out of Villain ones. |
In addition, even though they are now going to be looking to even partially allow it doesn't mean that I was wrong in guessing their motivation. All it means is that despite whatever reasons they had, they are listening to players that want it.
If you think that you'll have access to the other sides bases without penalties, I think you are dreaming or just trying to fool yourself.
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Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
You're already giving up options for being a "grey" morality, Snow. You lose Hero/Villain merits and the ability to use them to purchase Purples and PVP IOs. The Hero and Villain "lounges" also have direct ports to each of the signature TF/SFs for each side.
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Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
That's what was billed as the reward of staying true to your "pure" Hero of Villain alignment leading up to this.
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Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
Not being unable to get around with your teammates shouldn't be as much of a problem as it is, but who would seriously have thought it was a good idea to have a Rogue hoof it from PI to Crey's Folly to Boomtown to IP to Atlas as part of a blue side team running Tips? And before you say it can't happen, that's exactly the path my MM had to take the other day for blue side tips.
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Pros:
- Doesn't touch the base system at all.
- Provides an equal benefit for neutral characters with the hero/villain lounges.
- Adds additional opportunities for new content to be developed by the developers.
- Roleplayers will have a fit that they can't cross-faction RP in their bases.
- Players that want benefits without penalties will be upset.
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Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
You have to go without using Ouro because that's two separate instances for hero and villains. Hero SGs and Villain SGs can't currently place the beacons for the opposite side's zones, regardless of whether the required exploration for the SG Exploration badge is completed.
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Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
So at first glance, an option that makes sense (story-wise, mechanics-wise, or otherwise) is to allow teammates to use your base, regardless of their alignment if your SG chooses to allow teammates in. Doesn't seem like rocket surgery to me that this would be an avenue to look at, considering they had to actually add lines of code to prevent opposing factions' entry when bases and coalitions first showed up.
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Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
In the Beta forums, there was even a player who pointed out that their SG is still coalitioned to a VG from before this was prevented, and that both SG and VG can still enter the other's bases freely.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Demon asked me to check and see if my grandfathered cross-faction coalition with base access still worked.
It does in fact, amazingly the whole server doesn't appear to come crashing down when a villain chills in a base with a hero. I know, its a huge shock.
See here is the thing Snow, you're arguing against this and have been for ages now and the devs have already said they're going to try and allow this to happen again.
So that means you're just trolling at this point. Go troll elsewhere.
Original picture from beta time period
http://www.agentsofscorpio.com/hero-in-vill-base.jpg
Picture I just took:
http://www.agentsofscorpio.com/zomg-...se-still01.jpg
Maybe I'll make it a personal project this week to get a character into the Abyss VG and add teleporters to see if a vigilante can use them to travel in the Isles. Maybe a rogue in the Order of the Abyss can use the Shinsengumi teleporters, oh the horror.
I sincerely hope the now often cited one line August 16 quote results in the positve change desired by many players. If it does, I'll view that as a major breakthrough (victory) in the players' ablity to influence any development in the direction of bases/SGs.
At this point, I'm still not absolutely convinced that is going to happen (as much as I'd like it to). Seems to me a relook could just as easily result in a, "Meh, this breaks the game somehow." or "Meh, it's too much trouble to code." or "Meh, it's just bases and we have bigger and better things to worry about" finding as it does fully cross factional bases.
We'll see. May wanna save the rocks and the "I told ya so" kind of stuff until it actually happens. Many of us have been down the road this far before w/o the anticipated consequences occurring.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
I've got a vigilante that has done some exploring in the Rogue Isles, and now the Blue side SG has earned the beacons. (They show up in the SG Exploration badge menu on the compass).
However, during base editing, these beacons do not appear in the Place Item window, so no TP'ing from the SG base to villain maps.
I'm guessing this is by design, but maybe a bug?? It would be a really nice feature for vigilantes/rogues.