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Well, until recently it was because both sets had things in them that no other set offered. |
Originally Posted by jshmoe
Something I have always been curious about with these two sets are the difference between them and the rest of the sets when it comes to KB protection.
I'm more curious as to why these two sets are like this. Is it a thematic choice? Is there a back story that I'm missing? Old game mechanics? I've always wondered and since my next project will be a claws/DA, it sparked even more curiosity. |
Dark Armor had significant Psionic resistance, when it was designed no other set had any resistance at all to that damage type, only Ice and Stone had any protection for it at all, and it was defense, not resistance. It also had fear protection, and end drain resistance, two other things nothing else had in abundance. Dark Armor also had more control options than any of the other armor sets, that is actually mostly still true.
Energy Aura, Electric Armor, Willpower, and Ninjitsu have Psi resistance or defense in them now......but none of those sets existed when Dark Armor was designed.
Fiery Aura originally did more damage than any other defense/resistance set, and remained that way until Shield Defense was released last year. Fire Tanks used to herd entire zones into a single dumpster (this was before agro caps or collision physics) and kill 85-90 baddies at once with Burn (6 slotted for damage of course, that was also before caps on AoEs)
Since those two sets could do things nothing else could do, it seemed fair to give them weaknesses nothing else had. And it wasn't like they were saying DA and FA couldn't have KB protection at all, since Acrobatics did (and still does) exist to fill that hole in the sets.
There have been complaints over the years about that lack of KB protection, but I for one think it's fine how it is. Both sets offer enough that an easily rectified weakness isn't really a weakness at all.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I had a feeling that it had to do something with the age of the powersets.
I don't have a problem with it and I kind of embrace "weaknesses" because they can make things interesting.
Thanks a lot for the quick reply.
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Originally Posted by jshmoe
I had a feeling that it had to do something with the age of the powersets.
I don't have a problem with it and I kind of embrace "weaknesses" because they can make things interesting. Thanks a lot for the quick reply. |
If it was just a matter of the 'age', then I'd think castle would have given FA kb protection with the upcoming changes. The fact he hasn't would seem to indicate that the hole is intentional and not some relic of the early game.
DA is a late blooming set, and you need to get the endurance use worked out, so don't give up on it too early. Late game, and especially with IO's, DA is a beast.
It's actually pretty simple. Damage Aura's. Thats basically what they trade for KB protection.
Yes, Elec has a damage aura as well, but their KB protection is substandard at best, and it's also because Elec doesn't have a very reliable heal.
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By no means am I giving up on it. I'm actually greatly looking forward to it. The lack of KB protection doesn't bother me in the slightest. It was just honest curiosity. I've always wondered and starting a /DA gave me that extra "hmph" to actually ask about it.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
If it was just a matter of the 'age', then I'd think castle would have given FA kb protection with the upcoming changes. The fact he hasn't would seem to indicate that the hole is intentional and not some relic of the early game.
DA is a late blooming set, and you need to get the endurance use worked out, so don't give up on it too early. Late game, and especially with IO's, DA is a beast. |
well then hurry it up already 
though with the upcoming changes on FA... thinking of getting me one of those ugly lookin spines. 2 damage auras, FE, throw spines, burn, spine burst then SM and HF to keep me standing... hmm that gives me a bit of time to get plastered on SC2 
I'm just going through some old posts here - isn't there a special IO that provides knockback protection? I recall there being one, but I don't know how rare it is, or where it would go, but that could be an option for some builds.
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Steadfast -KB for Resist Damage sets|
Originally Posted by Rooftop_Raider
I'm just going through some old posts here - isn't there a special IO that provides knockback protection? I recall there being one, but I don't know how rare it is, or where it would go, but that could be an option for some builds.
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Karma - KB for Defence sets
they run about 3-5 million on the market atm!
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Well except Dark Armor when it first came out was worthless because you could not even stack the armors. The original reasons made no sense then nor does it now.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Well, until recently it was because both sets had things in them that no other set offered.
Dark Armor had significant Psionic resistance, when it was designed no other set had any resistance at all to that damage type, only Ice and Stone had any protection for it at all, and it was defense, not resistance. It also had fear protection, and end drain resistance, two other things nothing else had in abundance. Dark Armor also had more control options than any of the other armor sets, that is actually mostly still true. Energy Aura, Electric Armor, Willpower, and Ninjitsu have Psi resistance or defense in them now......but none of those sets existed when Dark Armor was designed. Fiery Aura originally did more damage than any other defense/resistance set, and remained that way until Shield Defense was released last year. Fire Tanks used to herd entire zones into a single dumpster (this was before agro caps or collision physics) and kill 85-90 baddies at once with Burn (6 slotted for damage of course, that was also before caps on AoEs) Since those two sets could do things nothing else could do, it seemed fair to give them weaknesses nothing else had. And it wasn't like they were saying DA and FA couldn't have KB protection at all, since Acrobatics did (and still does) exist to fill that hole in the sets. There have been complaints over the years about that lack of KB protection, but I for one think it's fine how it is. Both sets offer enough that an easily rectified weakness isn't really a weakness at all. |
Acrobatics does not feel the hole compared to the other sets it use to before a nerf now it sorta helps along with IO's but you still do not have resistance and why do those sets forced into a pool power to cover a hole that none of the other sets have that go into melee. Will Power and elec have KB protection so the damage aura does not hold water nor psi resistance as a reason. Shields is an offensive set +damage and SC has kb protection.
It comes from an old excuse that never made sense then nor does it now.
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
As an aside, Hover provides pretty effective pseudo-KB protection. You flip end over end, but don't go anywhere.
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Also you were able too land multiple burn at the same location.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Fiery Aura originally did more damage than any other defense/resistance set, and remained that way until Shield Defense was released last year. Fire Tanks used to herd entire zones into a single dumpster (this was before agro caps or collision physics) and kill 85-90 baddies at once with Burn (6 slotted for damage of course, that was also before caps on AoEs)
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Also the zephyr -kb that goes in any travel power.|
Originally Posted by Exodus_V
Steadfast -KB for Resist Damage sets
Karma - KB for Defence sets they run about 3-5 million on the market atm! |
Also the set bonus from Kinetic Crash.
Three of the PvP sets offer knockback protection as well, but I think it is safe to ignore them.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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And when Dark Armor and Fire Aura were designed, none of those sets existed yet. That is the point I was trying to make. Electric Armor and Energy Aura were still 2 years away, Willpower was 4 years away, and Shield Defense was 5 years away. You can't expect them to make design decisions based on powersets they hadn't even thought about yet. No one said "We should give Dark Armor KB protection because we're going to make a set called Willpower in 4 years that will have Psionic resistance". Dark could resist something that shredded other sets, so it was given a weakness other sets didn't have. |
Originally Posted by Hejtmane
Will Power and elec have KB protection so the damage aura does not hold water nor psi resistance as a reason. Shields is an offensive set +damage and SC has kb protection.
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Fire was, for a while, THE tanker set to play, because it could kill entire zones by itself. Not having KB protection wasn't a big deal for a character that A) Had 6 slotted Stamina to run Acrobatics with, and B) had that much offensive potential.
Yes, things have changed since then, but if anything the lack of KB protection is even less of an issue because we now have many more ways of dealing with it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Also, Stone Armor and Ice Armor have damage auras, and have KB protection. The only Tanker set on release that didn't have a damage aura was Invuln.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Both were very different beasts originally:|
Originally Posted by jshmoe
Something I have always been curious about with these two sets are the difference between them and the rest of the sets when it comes to KB protection.
I'm more curious as to why these two sets are like this. Is it a thematic choice? Is there a back story that I'm missing? Old game mechanics? I've always wondered and since my next project will be a claws/DA, it sparked even more curiosity. |
Dark Armors could only be on one at a time(the same held for Stone Armors). It was one of two armor sets that granted Psi resistance. As every armor set had some kind of weakness(usually Psi), Dark lost KB.
Fire Armor was a 'offensive' defense set. It didn't even have any mez protection originally! It's why the mez protection is spread out, there was no mez armor in the set; it was tacked on later. The same is true of Toxic Resistance(originally, there was none in any set), and it was smattered about in weird places in all sets.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
I could see a couple defense-based sets be without KB protection (ala Ninjitsu), but the resistance-based sets ... it's so easy to be knocked back.
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Stone has the dual disadvantages of forcing you to take Teleport if you want to move faster than a crawl in Granite, and of being kind of squishy until you get Granite. And Stone's KB protection makes you move glacially slow itself. It's not so much KB protection as it is "any kind of movement at all protection". If you're running both Granite Armor AND Rooted, you better have Teleport or a pocket kin if you plan on going anywhere this week. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Also, Stone Armor and Ice Armor have damage auras, and have KB protection. The only Tanker set on release that didn't have a damage aura was Invuln.
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I'm not entirely sure what disadvantage Ice had, unless it was being a magnet for more agro than you could handle, and being unable to shake that agro even if you wanted to.
I HAVE seen a number of Ice tanks that were rather squishy back when I first started playing (before IOs) Maybe that's what Ice's downside was: being the squishiest tanker set pre-ED, and holding agro better than anything else. (that just doesn't seem fair now that I think about it: "You'll be able to hold agro like nobody's business, but you won't survive it")
They all had SOME kind of disadvantage to make up for what they were good at. That has changed recently into sets that aren't especially good at any one thing, but don't have any real weaknesses either.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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You might have something there. Maybe that was by design... the hole was given to the two sets that it would actually be a hinderance toward.
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Originally Posted by Rooftop_Raider
I could see a couple defense-based sets be without KB protection (ala Ninjitsu), but the resistance-based sets ... it's so easy to be knocked back.
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Back in the day, Ice was regarded as the absolute worst defensive set due to how squishy it was. Which is kinda funny considering it has been virtually unchanged since then. |
I'm not entirely sure what disadvantage Ice had, unless it was being a magnet for more agro than you could handle, and being unable to shake that agro even if you wanted to. I HAVE seen a number of Ice tanks that were rather squishy back when I first started playing (before IOs) Maybe that's what Ice's downside was: being the squishiest tanker set pre-ED, and holding agro better than anything else. (that just doesn't seem fair now that I think about it: "You'll be able to hold agro like nobody's business, but you won't survive it") |
These days, with IO's, and the ability for Ice to easily softcap their defenses, and have perma Hoarfrost, Ice is regarded as a top notch set, but it wasn't always considered that.
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When the game first came out, Dark Armor had neither fear protection nor endurance drain resistance. I'm pretty sure no set did. There weren't any enemies that used fear at all since it was a very different effect that made affected critters flee (which was just brilliant to stick on a melee AT). Likewise, I don't recall enemies using endurance drain to the degree that some foes do now, e. g. Malta Sappers. I'm fairly certain the fear protection was added to DA when PvP first came out, and the endurance drain resistance soon after.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Dark Armor had significant Psionic resistance, when it was designed no other set had any resistance at all to that damage type, only Ice and Stone had any protection for it at all, and it was defense, not resistance. It also had fear protection, and end drain resistance, two other things nothing else had in abundance. Dark Armor also had more control options than any of the other armor sets, that is actually mostly still true.
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Based on how Fire Armor behaves now with Fiery Embrace and NewBurn, I'd reckon, in my eyes anyway, the KB hole is totally fair. My scrapper can one-shot yellow minions with FE and NewBurn. ;D
The Story of a Petless MM with a dream
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This entire post should receive some kind of award for being both hysterical and fantastic.
Well done. |
Something I have always been curious about with these two sets are the difference between them and the rest of the sets when it comes to KB protection.
I'm more curious as to why these two sets are like this. Is it a thematic choice? Is there a back story that I'm missing? Old game mechanics?
I've always wondered and since my next project will be a claws/DA, it sparked even more curiosity.