Improve Group Fly: Create more content that requires Group Fly!
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2010-08-06 19:22 in Suggestions and Ideas
I've waited a long time to do this: YOUR IDEA SUCKS!
Apart from TCS's incredibly rude phrasing (seriously -- what is wrong with you?), I have to agree that this is just not a good idea. I don't want to see content like this that can only be passed by one specific power that requires taking two other powers in order to even have access to. I also don't think Group Fly should be removed. Frankly? Not every power can be gold. Leave it as it is. A few people use it for specific utility reasons, or for concept/RP reasons, and that's fine.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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I wasn't gonna bother trying to explain this for TCS... but since you got tripped up on it as well... this was created largely in response to the latest Get Rid of Group Fly thread. It's intentionally over the top and ludicrous in the opposite direction.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Apart from TCS's incredibly rude phrasing (seriously -- what is wrong with you?), I have to agree that this is just not a good idea. I don't want to see content like this that can only be passed by one specific power that requires taking two other powers in order to even have access to. I also don't think Group Fly should be removed. Frankly? Not every power can be gold. Leave it as it is. A few people use it for specific utility reasons, or for concept/RP reasons, and that's fine.
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I was only doing what Je_saist has done to me constantly in my suggestion threads. (Some of which actually had merit and would be easy to implement. See the quote in my signature and the thread it came from.)
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Apart from TCS's incredibly rude phrasing (seriously -- what is wrong with you?), I have to agree that this is just not a good idea. I don't want to see content like this that can only be passed by one specific power that requires taking two other powers in order to even have access to. I also don't think Group Fly should be removed. Frankly? Not every power can be gold. Leave it as it is. A few people use it for specific utility reasons, or for concept/RP reasons, and that's fine.
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Kind of a long road for a short joke. 
Also it's pretty sad that I can't tell an over-the-top intentionally ridiculous idea from an actual suggestion anymore.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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*slowly backs out of impending flame war thread*
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
I was only doing what Je_saist has done to me constantly in my suggestion threads. (Some of which actually had merit and would be easy to implement. See the quote in my signature and the thread it came from.)
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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How is that any different then your other posts?
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Originally Posted by je_saist
It's intentionally over the top and ludicrous in the opposite direction.
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You know what's funny? I don't think the basic premise is a bad idea really. If this was meant to be a total joke... then there are a LOT of things you could have suggested that were so over the top ridiculous that even a lobotomized chimp would understand.
Obviously the TFs requiring Group Fly is too far... but a GM or two that are only ever found in the air and radiate some sort of -Temp_Powers debuff would be very interesting. Also, if a pit like the one you are discussin were to exist, whatever is on the other side better be an optional objective (but a super cool one). If you modify a couple things, this would not be ludicrous.
*ducks back in with an asbestos suit*
I still hate the idea of gating content behind one specific power. Even if it's optional. I really think the best you could hope for is to just up the speed (that way it wouldn't be completely broken) and maybe reduce or completely remove the accuracy debuff, and just leave it as one of those situational powers that most people just never take.
Now I'm going to leave this thread again before it gets mod-smacked for being a duplicate thread.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
forget coddling a failed power, just replace group fly with something useful.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
forget coddling a failed power, just replace group fly with something useful.
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| I wasn't gonna bother trying to explain this for TCS... but since you got tripped up on it as well... this was created largely in response to the latest Get Rid of Group Fly thread. It's intentionally over the top and ludicrous in the opposite direction. |
Possibly by someone with group fly.
I like the idea myself, in that I think we could use some some flying GMs that require people to grab a jetpack, take fly, or have group fly available to them.
I also like the idea of getting rid of the -tohit, and upping the fly speed.
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Any content that "requires" Group Fly can be completed with jetpacks. A wall you can't superjump over? Oh well, jetpack (or even GvE jump pack). Infinite "instakill" holes you can only fly across? Oh well, jetpack (or even teleport). Pets can't follow? Oh well, resummon.
So you didn't just make Group Fly required, you just put more emphasis on players purchasing from the Jetpack Vendors.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Upping the speed, dropping the DeBuff?|
Originally Posted by je_saist
First: I'd like to suggest actually making Group Fly faster than Fly. Yes, this means, raising that low flight speed cap. Second: I'd like to suggest dropping that to-hit debuff. I mean, after the loss of the minus defense on that Invuln power the precedent was set to remove power debuffs that while they fit the theme of the set, really didn't fit how the power set actually worked. Group Fly, as a power, is only really going to be useful in situations where temp powers are not available. As of right now, that is largely confined to Master of Task Force attempts. Why include an automatic major debuff? |
I agree with that part. The rest? *shrug*
and I say kill group fly altogether and replace it with something equally useless but cool like a power called hypervelocity or something like that ::shrugs::
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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Originally Posted by ebon3
and I say kill group fly altogether and replace it with something equally useless but cool like a power called hypervelocity or something like that ::shrugs::
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Also see other thread re: replacing a power, as always, being a bad idea. The devs re-learned that lesson the hard way with the PPPs. Guess some people still need to have that cinderblock dropped on their head 'til the point gets through. Possibly by someone with group fly. |
1. Remove -tohit
2. Give GrpFly slightly slower than flight speed
3. Make it as stable as hover is.
Sorted. Power is fixed, win/win
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Give me back Fold Space as an option, NAO!
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Also see other thread re: replacing a power, as always, being a bad idea. The devs re-learned that lesson the hard way with the PPPs. Guess some people still need to have that cinderblock dropped on their head 'til the point gets through.
Possibly by someone with group fly. |
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This. I can tolerate the soul devouring endurance cost but the debuff makes no sense. Isn't it the single strongest to-hit debuff in the game? Plus, it's unresistable. While there doesn't necessarily need to be "forced" Group Fly content, making more airborne areas, airborne enemies of importance (GMs, TF/SF specific AVs), and having some way to refuse using it (powersets that require you to be grounded, having super speed/jump as a travel power) would go a long way towards helping it. I just have a feeling it'll never get touched because it's not a new shiny and people aren't vocal enough about improving it.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
1. Remove -tohit
2. Give GrpFly slightly slower than flight speed 3. Make it as stable as hover is. Sorted. Power is fixed, win/win |
What do you mean by "stable"?
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I'd be more than happy with just halving the ToHit penalty. I DO use Group Fly in PvP on occasion.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
This. I can tolerate the soul devouring endurance cost but the debuff makes no sense. Isn't it the single strongest to-hit debuff in the game? Plus, it's unresistable. While there doesn't necessarily need to be "forced" Group Fly content, making more airborne areas, airborne enemies of importance (GMs, TF/SF specific AVs), and having some way to refuse using it (powersets that require you to be grounded, having super speed/jump as a travel power) would go a long way towards helping it. I just have a feeling it'll never get touched because it's not a new shiny and people aren't vocal enough about improving it.
What do you mean by "stable"? |
Stability = fly magnitude
Up the speed significantly, drop the tohit debuff, and make it 1.7eps.
It is now doing exactly what it is intended to do, with a high eps to offset using it all the time for metagaming.
Sucks to be those Bots MMs with it though. That does look cool.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This entire post should receive some kind of award for being both hysterical and fantastic.
Well done. |
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I'm assuming that they're talking about it not having the "Drift" that Fly does.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
What do you mean by "stable"? |
Odd, I don't remember it having a drift at all. In fact, it completely lacks travel suppression.
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Do the Rikti dropships not count? I mean yeah they have no reward for doing it but killing them does seem to require flight of some form.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Fifth: Truly giant monsters that can only be attacked by Fliers. Yeah. Insert Rularuu here.
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Okay. Here's the basic premise.
Group Fly, as presented to the players through both the pool power sets and through the Epic Archtype Peacebringer, leaves a lot to be desired as a power set. Let's just go over some of the known issues which are probably regarded as reasons not to take the power:
- massive end drain
- slow fly speed
- 25% to-hit debuff
These are some pretty serious reasons to not want to take group fly. For starters, the to-hit debuff belongs up there with Spaceballs and Ludicrous Speed. Yes, a Defender with an ED capped Tactics can get close to erasing the debuff, but if you are a defender with both Group Flight and Tactics... well... you probably won't be doing much other than simply hovering around while everybody else attacks, and you can probably forget about laying on any sort of buffs or debuffs unless you have a couple of friendly -rads or a kin around... even if you did decide to focus your IO build on recovering endurance.There's also the lack of compelling content that would make you want to take group fly to begin with. Group Fly used to be popular at Hamidon Raids and for Shadow Shard Task Forces... but now everybody can pick up a Jet Pack for those. It's not like there's going to be a lot of people running temp-power off versions of the Shadow Shard Task Forces either. Not even I would bother trying for a Master of Dr. Quarterfield or a Master of Faathim the Kind badge if they were added. The TF's are just too long and too impractical without cherry picking your team and each build.
Group Fly, as a power, is largely made redundant by existing temporary powers, and there's not much perceived usage for it.
So: Lets Buff It!
First: I'd like to suggest actually making Group Fly faster than Fly. Yes, this means, raising that low flight speed cap.
Second: I'd like to suggest dropping that to-hit debuff. I mean, after the loss of the minus defense on that Invuln power the precedent was set to remove power debuffs that while they fit the theme of the set, really didn't fit how the power set actually worked. Group Fly, as a power, is only really going to be useful in situations where temp powers are not available. As of right now, that is largely confined to Master of Task Force attempts. Why include an automatic major debuff?
Third: start looking at Map Designs and content where having group fly might be something that will make a given task a lot easier. E.G.: implement a room that Mastermind Pet's can't teleport across, or implement a true bottomless pit / automatic teleport to hospital type of tech to make chasms that can't be crossed with Superjump or Superspeed. Actually implement a content system where powers that can haul a bunch of team-mates at once might be beneficial to the team.
Forth: implement this new type content in a Task Force that won't make players groan at the thought of running it.
Fifth: Truly giant monsters that can only be attacked by Fliers. Yeah. Insert Rularuu here.
Doesn't this seem like a much better way to approach Group Fly than just removing it?