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I'am not going to argue with a person which dosnt even realy read my posts. Never did I say a brute should act like a taunt bot and neither did I ignore the damage bonus the brute gets, I only said their approach is very similiar. But if your idea of a "well played tanker" is being a useless taunt bot with granite then yes, thats not how a brute should be played.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yes, let's completely ignore the +150% damage buff the brute gets for attacking hard and taking the alpha. There's just no difference 'tween them there tanks and brutes! Again, any team redside that hasn't already decimated the spawn in question before the brute needs to start acting like a useless taunt bot is Doing It Wrong.
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| Any corruptor on any team I make that isn't blasting As Much as he's using his secondary gets kicked. Any dom that isn't blasting/punching as much as he's laying down the controls gets kicked. I will not tolerate a bunch of pansies on any team I create pretending that this game is WoW. |
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The numbers dont matter if the approach is pretty much similiar... I think there is a reason why you snipped out the part with "through damage dealing" from my quote |
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Except there is clearly a difference. If nothing else, read through the stats on Red Tomax. Numbers don't lie.
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Yes... its only an issue with bad brutes. But in all honesty, I never encountered one of those "lol I'am not going in first I'am not a tanker!" brutes which was a good player. You dont even need to discuss a topic like this with a good brute cause he knows tanking is part of his job... and with tanking I dont mean standing around and spaming taunt like some people here assume |
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
That's more an issue of bad brutes in general though.
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Tanking means doing your best to keep aggro off of others to keep them safe. If someone manages to get some aggro? A tanker would say "I must help them by taunting or attacking that mob to prevent my friends death. If they die, I was not able to do my job."|
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Yes... its only an issue with bad brutes. But in all honesty, I never encountered one of those "lol I'am not going in first I'am not a tanker!" brutes which was a good player. You dont even need to discuss a topic like this with a good brute cause he knows tanking is part of his job... and with tanking I dont mean standing around and spaming taunt like some people here assume
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Brute-ing means doing your best to keep aggro on you so you can fill up the awesome bar. If someone takes some of your aggro? A brute would say "Not a big deal as long as that awesome bar is near full. If they die, then maybe they will learn to kill the stuff that they piss off a bit better."
Tanking is never part of my job while I am on a brute. Brute-ing is.
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Thats just an unsocial and selfish way of tanking... but tanking none the less. If its in your power and requires very little effort why wouldnt you help a teamate out? Sorry but thats something I will never understand.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Tanking is never part of my job while I am on a brute. Brute-ing is.
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Sure if he steals your aggro then its his own fault... but more often then enough there are things like adds and ambushes or some boss is running rampant because he somehow escaped from your reach. Would you let the team wipe or have some losses in such an situation instead of saving it with just one simple klick on the taunt button only because you are not a "tank"?
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No it is still brute-ing. It is in my power to let my teamate learn from their mistakes so they do not repeat them. I feel this does both the player and the community a much better service. Thereby being a social and very unselfish way of helping out. In addition I will gladly make a wakie for them if they do not have one.|
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Thats just an unsocial and selfish way of tanking... but tanking none the less. If its in your power and requires very little effort why wouldnt you help a teamate out? Sorry but thats something I will never understand.
Sure if he steals your aggro then its his own fault... but more often then enough there are things like adds and ambushes or some boss is running rampant because he somehow escaped from your reach. Would you let the team wipe or have some losses in such an situation instead of saving it with just one simple klick on the taunt button only because you are not a "tank"? |
I am normally set at x8 on my brutes so if there are ambushes I do the best possible thing in that situation. Kill stuff as fast as I can. Once you hit the aggro cap there is really nothing you can do to help your team other than that (at least on a brute or tank or scrapper). Thankfully I am on a brute and not a low damage tanker so I will be able to chew through the mobs faster to keep that awesome bar high.
As far as a boss that escaped my reach, so what? If the others on my team cannot handle a boss by themselves then getting beat up by one will help them learn. Again assisting not only the player but the entire community. Oh also I don't have taunt because I am not a tank. I am a brute.
Why are there some people that cannot figure out that they are different? That is something I will never understand.
This thread reminds me of something that happened in game the other night.
Me and some RL friends were running some new characters together. Our team was: 1 brute, 2 Dom's, and a Corruptor. We were later joined by a Widow and an MM. To say we were steamrolling everything in sight would be an understatement.
Well it was getting late and my friend playing the Brute had to go to bed. After he logged out of Vent my friend playing the Corruptor said: "this is going to be ugly, we're gonna die a lot." He truly believed we had to have a Brute tanking or we were in trouble. Know what happened? We kept steamrolling and no one died. I think that is why many of us don't feel the need to tank on a Brute. The tanking role just isn't required. As long as you have some means on the team of mitigating the alpha, you're good.
Going Rogue is going to be really interesting.
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Who the hell are you and what have you done with Deus_Otiosus?
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'm in full agreement with Dechs on this.
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In many ways, being as good as a scrapper or as good as a tanker is called being a brute. You have the tools for a reason. To not use the tools because one doesn't think it suits the AT would be wrong. I wouldn't expect Brutes to take an alpha they can not take and I could expect Brutes to scrap versus mobs that aren't the ones they're clearly cut out for, but if push comes to shove any type of Brute can suffice as a Tank, however you better kill faster.
Taunt was never just for pulling some random stray(s)from someone 70ft away; who supposedly should be able to deal with +4s by themselves.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
The numbers dont matter if the approach is pretty much similiar
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But the approach is not similar. Not similar enough to be called the same, anyway. That's what folks are saying here, Brutes play differently.
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I think there is a reason why you snipped out the part with "through damage dealing" from my quote
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Simply for brevity. Anyone following the thread has already read your post, why repeat it?
Paranoia shall destroy ya.
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So much incorrect spew... where to start: I read your post. It was full of silliness much like the one I'm responding to now. A "well played tanker" keeps the squishies on his team safe, directs aggro to himself because it's his job to do so and keeps the team moving at a pace that is enjoyable for everyone.|
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
I'am not going to argue with a person which dosnt even realy read my posts. Never did I say a brute should act like a taunt bot and neither did I ignore the damage bonus the brute gets, I only said their approach is very similiar. But if your idea of a "well played tanker" is being a useless taunt bot with granite then yes, thats not how a brute should be played.
Ah ok, so every other AT has to function in both their roles and otherwise they will be kicked but your brute can neglect his secondary, ignore aggro management completely and play like some kind of stalker... nice one... and then you even dare to tell me I'am the one which dosnt know how to play his AT... ignorance at its finest |
A well played brute's job is to dish out damage and survive doing so. Any brute that ignores his secondary won't survive long enough to kill anything. Therefore, like EVERY OTHER player out there that ignores his secondary (yes, even tanks) will also get kicked from any team I'm running.
I stated that having a brute perform as a taunt bot is stupid. This is a fact because then the brute won't be doing his job of damage dealing. EDIT: yes, any dom that throws down an aoe immobilize and then cries to momma when he takes a crapload of return fire and faceplants Is Doing It Wrong.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Brutes' secondary is defense. The same as scrapper, tanker and stalker. It's NOT aggro management. Sure, for some, one power give that fonction. But it's like saying sonic blast's role is putting enemies to sleep, all the blaster's secondary (except EM) is to immob an enemy or FF's role is to make enemies intangible.
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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Ah ok, so every other AT has to function in both their roles and otherwise they will be kicked but your brute can neglect his secondary, ignore aggro management completely and play like some kind of stalker... nice one... and then you even dare to tell me I'am the one which dosnt know how to play his AT... ignorance at its finest
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"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
There are differances an similarities to both how Tankers and Brutes play and how blue and red side teams opperate.
Boiled down for Tanker vs. Brute it's simple: they can both tank and they can both do damage. It's just that Tankers have low damage but great hp and defenses while Brutes have moderate attack that grows into a great attack while having a decent defense. Tankers excel in holding aggro while Brutes are only good at it. They are still the best tanks redside, but no where as good as a Tanker.
As for the differances in blue teams and red teams it's how the ATs are structred. Blue side each AT has a Primary task and a secondary task.
Tankers: Tank then damage.
Scrappers: Damage then tank.
Blaster: Damage then control.
Controllers: Control then support.
Defenders: Support then damage.
Red ATs while being mirrors of the blue side are much... different in terms of tasks.
Brutes: Damage then tank.
Stalkers: Damage then maybe tank badly.
Corruptors: Damage then support.
Dominators: Damage then control.
Masterminds: Damage then support.
Red teams do not have the synergy of a blue team. They are ALL damage dealers. Tasks like support and tanking are afterthoughts.
I believe for red teams the best way to play is Corruptors and Masterminds to worry more about support while on teams while remembering to shoot stuff and Brutes to worry more about controlling aggro while smashing everything in sight. I may be wrong, I don't team on red side much...
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While I will admit for Scrappers and Brutes defenses are a secondary concern they both can still tank and tank well. Sure they need more support, but they make good off tanks. It's just Tankers are geared for it.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Brutes' secondary is defense. The same as scrapper, tanker and stalker. It's NOT aggro management. Sure, for some, one power give that fonction. But it's like saying sonic blast's role is putting enemies to sleep, all the blaster's secondary (except EM) is to immob an enemy or FF's role is to make enemies intangible.
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I still say Brutes should tank on teams, but you shouldn't expect them to hold the same aggro as tanks or take the same damage.
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<3
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Oh, so you don't know how to play your dom. Got it.
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Do what job?|
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
-Brute's have AoE Taunt.
If not the brute who else is going to do the job? |
You know what's really annoying? Those that have tried to pigeonhole ten AT's into 3 "jobs".
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You are. |
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
I believe for red teams the best way to play is Corruptors and Masterminds to worry more about support while on teams while remembering to shoot stuff and Brutes to worry more about controlling aggro while smashing everything in sight. I may be wrong, I don't team on red side much...
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It doesn't stop people from looking for Kins and Pain Doms just for a couple of buffs.
Red side has it easy........as long as you don't try to pretend your blue side. It sounds so simple, and yet so many screw it up.
A Brute only needs to 'tank' insofar as taking alphas because that's the most effective way to build Fury.
A good Brute is going to have the aggro of most, if not all, of a spawn anyway because they're running in, dropping their AoEs which have punchvoke and running their Taunt auras (either for damage or survivability). They do this because a) as above, aggro = MOAR FURY and b) because Brutes are a damage AT.
Anything worth 'tanking' like AVs or whatever is going to be 'tanked' by the Brute punching it in the face.
Also lol at you saying you run in with your Dom, use an AoE immob, get the aggro of the entire spawn and promptly die. That's like the archetypal example of a bad Controller or Dom.
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I like teaming with Bill, we think a lot alike as far as team dynamics go.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
When everyone is doing their Primary role correctly, the team won't need to act like the game is hard. Dive in, lock them down, KILL them. Anything else is wasting time. Any corruptor on any team I make that isn't blasting As Much as he's using his secondary gets kicked. Any dom that isn't blasting/punching as much as he's laying down the controls gets kicked. I will not tolerate a bunch of pansies on any team I create pretending that this game is WoW. |
And, as I am likely the only one in this thread that actually HAS teamed with Bill, I assert that your ideas of what his playstyle is like are very much incorrect.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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My Brute cannot find this "Taunt" button you are talking about. |
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Thats just an unsocial and selfish way of tanking... but tanking none the less. If its in your power and requires very little effort why wouldnt you help a teamate out? Sorry but thats something I will never understand.
Sure if he steals your aggro then its his own fault... but more often then enough there are things like adds and ambushes or some boss is running rampant because he somehow escaped from your reach. Would you let the team wipe or have some losses in such an situation instead of saving it with just one simple klick on the taunt button only because you are not a "tank"? |
Oh wait, I see a "Skip-this-and-take-something-Smashy-instead" power listed in my powers list. Maybe that's the one you mean?
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-Brute's have AoE Taunt. If not the brute who else is going to do the job? * * |
Like others I agree with the idea that a Domi opening with their AOE Immob deserves everything they get. Not one of my 3 Domis even bothers taking the waste of endurance and animation time that is the AOE Immob.
Well, two things.
Firstly while I've yet to take Taunt on any of my Brutes, it does have its uses for getting more aggro for more Fury.
Secondly, the AoE immobs can be really good on Doms. AoE stun + AoE immob = AoE lockdown. That does, of course, require opening with the AoE stun, not the AoE immob 
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
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I've found that combo unnecessary on my Earth Domi. Stunning them and letting them wander around Quicksand is fine. They won't go far generally. Even the "quick stun-stagger" bug rarely crops up on him (whereas my Stone/Fire brute could induce it at will with a Tremor / Fault combo if done in that order). Only Warwolves and the like are the exception.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Well, two things.
Firstly while I've yet to take Taunt on any of my Brutes, it does have its uses for getting more aggro for more Fury. Secondly, the AoE immobs can be really good on Doms. AoE stun + AoE immob = AoE lockdown. That does, of course, require opening with the AoE stun, not the AoE immob |
For a domi I've found the "ghetto hold" concept to be overrated, and a active hinderence to things like "I'll also plonk down an Earthquake for any that the AOE Stun missed, failed to mez or for when it wears off".
I suppose it is less useful for an Earth/ Dom since you've got QS and EQ, but for a Fire/ Dom its invaluable.
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Taunt gets such a bad rap; it's an awesome set mule.
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Honestly there is absolutely no difference between a well played tanker and a well played brute. Both should be the first ones to charge in and take the alpha, both should have no trouble holding most of the aggro simply through auras and damage dealing and both should use their taunt from time to time to save someone else *** if he is in trouble (its called TEAM PLAY... not "8 solo players in one mission" I would consider something like that common sense). The only difference between the two AT's is the brute will deal more damage but will need a heal thrown at him from time to time on the contrary to the tanker.
On a team there is something called "team play" and every AT should do his best to use his abilities in a way which makes this team play more enjoyable for everybody. Only because some AT's like brutes or corruptors are hybrids and can also deal some damage that dosnt mean they are relieved from their secondary role, no, it means they should do their best to fulfil both the roles they can cover.
Just imagine a corruptor coming into your team which dosnt heal or buff or whatever else his secondary set offers... and then he tells you "no sorry thats not my job, I'am not a defender"... or a dominator who dosnt CC because he's no controller. Everybody would tap one's forehead at someone like that, so why should the brute be treated differently?
And taunt on a brute? They are not tanks. If I want to taunt something I will put my fist through its face. If someone decides to attack a huge spawn of mobs before they are in my aggro aura then they must want that aggro pretty bad. At that point it would just be mean to try and steal the aggro from them. I mean I am a villian but I am not going to steal from my team mates.