Brute as damage

HelinCarnate · 08-10-2010 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangler

Taunt gets such a bad rap; it's an awesome set mule.

Most stuff that you would want you need to dump in 5 more slots. Most of my builds are pretty tight to begin with and I cannot find room for another power, let alone 5 more slots. Adding another power just for a mule is a waste IMHO. Now if you have to pick a power like boxing to get to tough and weave and you wish to use that as a mule, that is not so bad. (handy to 5 slot the stun purples on that one)

Candlestick · 08-10-2010 04:54 AM

I don't even understand, in a game with Masterminds with Bodyguard, people are still complaining about taking the Alpha. On my Demons/Storm, I tank. Not the brute. Sure, the brute may try and steal my aggro, but screw him. He doesn't have Hurricane.

Carnifax_NA · 08-10-2010 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candlestick

I don't even understand, in a game with Masterminds with Bodyguard, people are still complaining about taking the Alpha. On my Demons/Storm, I tank. Not the brute. Sure, the brute may try and steal my aggro, but screw him. He doesn't have Hurricane.

And while you two are joustling to be in first the Fortuna might decide to open with Psi tornado, the Crab has gone with Venom Grenade whilest the Domi is busy dropping a mez patch from cover or just stunning the lot of them before running in themselves.

That's why I like Villains. Everyone has options and (hopefully) doesn't need to actually rely on one person being Mr Meatshield.

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Also lol at you saying you run in with your Dom, use an AoE immob, get the aggro of the entire spawn and promptly die. That's like the archetypal example of a bad Controller or Dom.

After something like ~10 seconds one could assume the brute should have enough time to build up aggro and that its save to throw an immob into the mobs without worrying. Hard CC isnt ready for every spawn during leveling you know...

Also this was just an example. If an Corruptor throws in his fireball its the same result... and most Corruptor secondary's dont have hard control either.

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

A Brute only needs to 'tank' insofar as taking alphas because that's the most effective way to build Fury.

A good Brute is going to have the aggro of most, if not all, of a spawn anyway because they're running in, dropping their AoEs which have punchvoke and running their Taunt auras (either for damage or survivability). They do this because a) as above, aggro = MOAR FURY and b) because Brutes are a damage AT.

Anything worth 'tanking' like AVs or whatever is going to be 'tanked' by the Brute punching it in the face.

But this is not what most of those "I dont want to tank" brutes do, they behave like some kind of squishy.

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

I like teaming with Bill, we think a lot alike as far as team dynamics go.

And, as I am likely the only one in this thread that actually HAS teamed with Bill, I assert that your ideas of what his playstyle is like are very much incorrect.

So what? He's missreading my posts on purpose and HIS ideas about me are just as wrong, so I dont see why I shouldn't return the favor ;p

Carnifax_NA · 08-10-2010 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

After something like ~10 seconds one could assume the brute should have enough time to build up aggro and that its save to throw an immob into the mobs without worrying. Hard CC isnt ready for every spawn during leveling you know...

Also this was just an example. If an Corruptor throws in his fireball its the same result... and most Corruptor secondary's dont have hard control either.

AOE Immobs are a waste of End if they aren't back-up to a harder form of mez, you'd be better off not doing anything at all. All most AOE immobs is interfere with other players forms of controls like knockdowns. If you haven't got a good reason to be AOE Immobing (regardless of your AT) then you're generally better off doing something else instead.

Most Corrupters have something they can do to help themselves out, either by debuffing the enemy in question, buffing themselves, healing themselves or some form of mez. Or they could just stick to their single target attacks if they are really struggling that much, and reserve Fireball as a finishing move once the spawn has been thinned out a tad. Fire is no slouch in the single target department either. Blaming others because you cannot adjust your playstyle is just wrong.

Dechs Kaison · 08-10-2010 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

After something like ~10 seconds one could assume the brute should have enough time to build up aggro and that its save to throw an immob into the mobs without worrying. Hard CC isnt ready for every spawn during leveling you know...

Also this was just an example. If an Corruptor throws in his fireball its the same result... and most Corruptor secondary's dont have hard control either.

As Carnifax pointed out, both of these are signature moves of really bad players. You're a villain, stop depending on other people and blaming your failures on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

But this is not what most of those "I dont want to tank" brutes do, they behave like some kind of squishy.

It's time to face facts, you are as bad or worse of a dom/corr player as you feel these alleged "don't want to tank" brutes are.

Also, learn to multi-quote and don't triple post.

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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

It's time to face facts, you are as bad or worse of a dom/corr player as you feel these alleged "don't want to tank" brutes are.

Not that I care... but an impression you might get from a few forum posts has nothing to do with "facts" and you are in no position to judge my playstyle.

Quote:

AOE Immobs are a waste of End if they aren't back-up to a harder form of mez, you'd be better off not doing anything at all. All most AOE immobs is interfere with other players forms of controls like knockdowns.

They prevent knockback and keep the enemies from runing out of burn patches, tornados etc. they also prevent enemies like longbow eagles from scattering through the whole room.

Carnifax_NA · 08-10-2010 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

They prevent knockback and keep the enemies from runing out of burn patches, tornados etc. they also prevent enemies like longbow eagles scattering through the whole room.

Domis don't get Burn or Tornado though.

Like I said, if you've got a good reason to be using them then use them, sparingly. A Brute using his Epic Immob to keep things in Burn is sensible. A Huntsman using his because he's about to use his grenades is sensible. Spamming them as a Domi "because you don't have any hard CC available" is just dumb button mashing.

Dechs Kaison · 08-10-2010 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

Not that I care... but an impression you might get from a few forum posts has nothing to do with "facts" and you are in no position to judge my playstyle.

S'cuse me? Who came in here judging others for their refusal to be pigeon holed into a role THAT DOES NOT EXIST?!

Where to now?
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 07:30 AM

I never judged anyone here, if you want FACTS here are some for you:

1) "I'am not tanking I'am bruteing" is nothing more then nitpicking. One doesn't even need that so much hated Taunt Button to tank in this game (although taking it will surely benefit a lot of teams). If you run in there first and stomp on the ground you are already tanking at least 10 enemies which is more then half of most spawns.

2) A brute which doesn't want aggro because he thinks he is some kind of damage dealing squishy and has a hard time staying alive only because of aoe damage alone is a bad brute.

3) Most brutes with this "I dont have to tank" mindset fall into that category.

4) You don't even have to discuss something like this with a good brute because he knows having at least the biggest chunk of the aggro is part of his AT. Thats why they get aggro auras, thats why they get punchvoke and thats also why they can pick an AoE Taunt in their primary.

5) I never judged anybody, I just made my definition of a bad brute and spoke out my opinion.

6) I'am sure most posters in this thread dont even fall into "category 2" and yet I'am the target for some stupid "brute is not a tank zealotry" and I'am being told I'am such a bad player and what not.

7) Honestly, I dont care about point 6 because I knew it would come down to this even before I wrote my first post in this thread. But its amusing none the less.

Sentry4 · 08-10-2010 07:33 AM

Personally when I play any of my brutes, I don't think about tanking. All I care about is filling my comic book role of a brute and killing everything as fast and as stylish as possible.

I run in first because I want enough aggro to get my fury up so I can kill them all as fast as possible. Not to protect my team.

A Brutes role is simply SMASH!!

I play my brutes solo the same way I play on teams. Now, I'm a little considerate as i won't leave ones behind or run into the mob or go the wrong way like I may when I'm solo, but I kind of ignore my teammates. I'm a brute, my job is to smash em, nothing more.

The Pros will always stay alive and the noobs will always die. I play on a team assuming everyone can take care of themselves, as I can on any of my toons. If someone dies, it's their own fault. Going back to taunt them off of them just slows me down and makes me smash less.

A good brute kills everything, a good tank protects their team.

@Sentry4 @Sentry 4

PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.

Carnifax_NA · 08-10-2010 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

1) "I'am not tanking I'am bruteing" is nothing more then nitpicking. One doesn't even need that so much hated Taunt Button to tank in this game (although taking it will surely benefit a lot of teams). If you run in there first and stomp on the ground you are already tanking at least 10 enemies which is more then half of most spawns.

Taking the Alpha != Tanking.

Tanking is about continuely soaking up aggro, focusing on rounding it all up at the expense of doing maximum damage, pulling it off their fellows and generally trying to act as a giant Hate Sponge.

Brutes tend to just jump in and then fighting away and don't really care about grabbing every single screed of aggro, they just want enough enemies around them to hit them and be hit by them in order to keep that Crackbar nice and high so they can make the pretty Orange Numbers as big as possible.

Brutes are pretty flexible in terms of what they can do, so you'll tend to have every breed of Brute from the Tank-and-taunt bot to the single-minded Fury-whores who are enslaved by The Bar and do its bidding.

I will agree with you that there's nothing worse than a wussie reluctant Brute / Tank. Especially if they use the word "Pull" (unless the team has already messily wiped once at the same point and this is the return from Hospital trip).

Dechs Kaison · 08-10-2010 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

1) "I'am not tanking I'am bruteing" is nothing more then nitpicking. One doesn't even need that so much hated Taunt Button to tank in this game (although taking it will surely benefit a lot of teams). If you run in there first and stomp on the ground you are already tanking at least 10 enemies which is more then half of most spawns.

This is your opinion, not a fact. There is a clear difference in roles between that of a tank and that of a brute. Brutes focus on killing things before they kill teammates. Tanks focus on maintaining aggro control and surviving. Taking an alpha does not constitute tanking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

2) A brute which doesn't want aggro because he thinks he is some kind of damage dealing squishy and has a hard time staying alive only because of aoe damage alone is a bad brute.

This is a fact, and a correct one at that. I have never seen this kind of brute, but that doesn't change the fact that one who behaves like this would be a bad brute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

3) Most brutes with this "I dont have to tank" mindset fall into that category.

This is not a fact, it's a perception based on a misconception of the brute AT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

4) You don't even have to discuss something like this with a good brute because he knows having at least the biggest chunk of the aggro is part of his AT. Thats why they get aggro auras, thats why they get punchvoke and thats also why they can pick an AoE Taunt in their primary.

They get pokevoke, a watered down version of punchvoke, AKA gauntlet. Punchvoke is an AoE, pokevoke is single target. That said, I agree. The best brutes understand how to max out their fury in order to deal the most damage possible. This is their true purpose. Aggro is merely a means to an end, though, not a necessity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

5) I never judged anybody, I just made my definition of a bad brute and spoke out my opinion.

Carnifax and I called out stupid plays, e.g. using AoE immobs like bread and butter. You called that judgmental. You're lying somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

6) I'am sure most posters in this thread dont even fall into "category 2" and yet I'am the target for some stupid "brute is not a tank zealotry" and I'am being told I'am such a bad player and what not.

Because you feel that using an AoE immob or fireball is always the best tactic, which are signature moves of the very worst players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

7) Honestly, I dont care about point 6 because I knew it would come down to this even before I wrote my first post in this thread. But its amusing none the less.

This is fact, however it is untrue. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have typed it, nor taken the time to fool yourself by typing "point seven."

Where to now?
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA

Taking the Alpha != Tanking.

Tanking is about continuely soaking up aggro, focusing on rounding it all up at the expense of doing maximum damage, pulling it off their fellows and generally trying to act as a giant Hate Sponge.

Problem is there is this little thing called "aggro cap". If you dive in first with your aggro aura and open with some kind of aoe attack which hits 10 targets you are most likely to hit the aggro cap of 16 enemies. Its impossible to tank absolutely everything, no matter how hard you try.

Back then before there was this aggro cap I would agree with you that bruteing and tanking is different, but not in the current game.

Carnifax_NA · 08-10-2010 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

Problem is there is this little thing called "aggro cap". If you dive in first with your aggro aura and open with some kind of aoe attack which hits 10 targets you are most likely to hit the aggro cap of 16 enemies. Its impossible to tank absolutely everything, no matter how hard you try.

Back then before there was this aggro cap I would agree with you that bruteing and tanking is different, but not in the current game.

So you're saying that since the aggro cap came in Tanks are in fact Bruting?

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA

So you're saying that since the aggro cap came in Tanks are in fact Bruting?

One could say that... but thats just nitpicking again ;p

I play both AT's the same way: I charge in first, I use my AoE's and then I focus with single target attacks on the bosses until the AoE's are ready again. When I see someone is in trouble or there are some adds while I'am not at the aggro cap I will use my Taunt. Concerning tanking there isnt much more one could do right now.

Dechs Kaison · 08-10-2010 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

Problem is there is this little thing called "aggro cap". If you dive in first with your aggro aura and open with some kind of aoe attack which hits 10 targets you are most likely to hit the aggro cap of 16 enemies. Its impossible to tank absolutely everything, no matter how hard you try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

I charge in first, I use my AoE's and then I focus with single target attacks on the bosses until the AoE's are ready again. When I see someone is in trouble or there are some adds while I'am not at the aggro cap I will use my Taunt. Concerning tanking there isnt much more one could do right now.

The emphasized is simply not true. Like the other game aspects I assert that you fail at, there are intelligent ways to approach tanking that can work around the aggro cap.

Many tank powers, especially those found in ancillary pools, afford controls, either knockdown, sleep, or hold. These enemies are not attacking teammates and therefor sufficiently "tanked."

Once at the aggro cap, new enemies can be added by shedding aggro of old enemies. By attacking hard targets like bosses more often and using heavy attacks to finish minions quickly, the most dangerous aggro around can be effectively controlled.

These are the things that constitute tanking. Effective aggro control throughout the encounter. Taking the alpha and dishing out damage is what brutes do, and is not tanking.

tl;dr Learn to play, Valkyrie.

Where to now?
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

Carnifax_NA · 08-10-2010 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

One could say that... but thats just nitpicking again ;p

I play both AT's the same way: I charge in first, I use my AoE's and when I see someone is in trouble or there are some adds while I'am not at the aggro cap I will use my Taunt. Concerning tanking there isnt much more one could do right now.

Brutes aren't particularly expected to do that though (at least not the taunting adds bit). Just because that is how YOU play YOUR brutes doesn't mean in the slightest that anyone who is more focused on simply fighting is doing it wrong.

As a Domi I personally see Adds as more my problem than the Brutes (since either of my Domis tends to have a few AOE tricks up their sleeves which will slow a bunch of adds right down). A Taunt with a cap of 5 targets doesn't compare.

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

Many tan powers, especially those found in ancillary pools, afford controls, either knockdown, sleep, or hold. These enemies are not attacking teammates and therefor sufficiently "tanked."

Yeah... and you tell me something about pigeon holeing again. If bruteing isnt tanking then CC sure as hell isnt. Also, I'am not alone on a team and throwing around gimped mag2 CC is a total waste because thats the job of controllers and dominators.

Quote:

Once at the aggro cap, new enemies can be added by shedding aggro of old enemies. By attacking hard targets like bosses more often and using heavy attacks to finish minions quickly, the most dangerous aggro around can be effectively controlled.

I do that even with my brute... thats common sense for me, so you dont need to tell my something like that.

Quote:

tl;dr Learn to play, Valkyrie.

Are we on the WoW Forums now? If you think you can provoke me with stuff like that you are wrong... I dont need to boast my ego on some mmo forum and the people on my server are more then satisfied with the way I play ;p

Dechs Kaison · 08-10-2010 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

Yeah... and you tell me something about pigeon holeing again. If bruteing isnt tanking then CC sure as hell isnt. Also, I'am not alone on a team and throwing around gimped mag2 CC is a total waste because thats the job of controllers and dominators.

Advising a tanker to supplement his attacks with crowd control abilities is not pigeonholing. The tanker's job is to keep mobs from attacking his teammates, and he should use all tools that are available to him to do so.

Enforcing some sort of misguided idea that a brute needs to tank is pigeonholing. A brute's job is to kill things as fast as possible. Aggro is merely a tool he uses to reach maximum fury.

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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

Advising a tanker to supplement his attacks with crowd control abilities is not pigeonholing. The tanker's job is to keep mobs from attacking his teammates, and he should use all tools that are available to him to do so.

It is pigeonholeing because the only powersets capable to CC on a scale which would make a difference are Dark Armor, Stone Melee, Ice Melee and the Stone Ancillary Pool.

So only a vast amount of 4 powersets is capable to fulfil your grant vision of "tanking". If CC was part of a tankers job he would have it as his secondary instead of attacks.

Quote:

Enforcing some sort of misguided idea that a brute needs to tank is pigeonholing.

Yeah... except I never enforced something on anybody, I tolerate even the most useless "I dont want aggro I'am a squishy" brutes on my teams and let them do whatever they want as long as everybody has fun. But that dosnt mean I cant have my opinion.

Dechs Kaison · 08-10-2010 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

It is pigeonholeing because the only powersets capable to CC on a scale which would make a difference are Dark Armor, Stone Melee, Ice Melee and the Stone Ancillary Pool.

So only a vast amount of 4 powersets is capable to fulfil your grant vision of "tanking".

Super Strength has Hand Clap, KO Blow, and Footstomp to control with reliably. The other attacks in this set have less reliable knockdown.

Electric Melee and War Mace have disorient and knockdown in AoE varieties.

Ice Melee has -recharge, AoE knockdown, AoE sleep, and a hold.

Axe has knockdown and knockup in quantity.

Energy melee has stackable stuns and some AoE stun.

Dual Blades has AoE knockdown as well as tohit debuffs.

Energy Mastery has the cone knockdown.

Ice Mastery has -recharge in heaps.

Fire melee and Pyre mastery are the only sets without extra mitigation, which is part of their design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU

If CC was part of a tankers job he would have it as his secondary instead of attacks.

Since you don't seem to understand: I do not claim CC is a part of a tankers job. It is one available tool for the tanker to do his job.

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

Valkyrie_EU · 08-10-2010 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison

...

The mentioning of knockdown or even knockback as means of tanking when you are already at the aggro cap is just silly.

Sure something like footstomp can knock some enemies down, but it will only buy something like ~3 seconds at best. You will also add those enemies to your aggro list because you attacked them, which means you will lose some others which where already on your tail, making everything only more chaotic.

Enemies which ignore you due to aggro cap also tend to scatter, which means you would have a realy hard time hiting all of them with the footstomp or whatever else. KB would make it even harder to distinguish which enemies are pointing their guns at you or someone else standing behind you.

It would be much more effective to simply use this footstomp to actually kill some of those 16 enemies around you and then just taunt those which are attacking your team mates.

The fact you even mention single target CC or even CC with a CHANCE to proc is even more silly... seriously, are you trying to tell me a good tanker should behave like some kind of pseudo Flash which is running around with super speed from one enemy to another in hopes his hit will knock that enemy down or stun it?

I understand your desire to point out stuff which seems "skilled" and wasnt considered by me to make me look bad, but this is just silly...