As a brute, you're not a tank and you're not a scrapper. You're a brute. It's an easy concept that a lot of people just don't want to get.
A brute wants aggro, but not for the same reasons a tank does. The brute doesn't care if something is hitting his teammates as long as he already has enough aggro for full fury.
As a brute, you should play a lot like a scrapper who gets a bonus if he holds a lot of aggro.
EDIT to add: Ah, I was wondering why that group has been there for 722 days waiting for their one teammate to come back.
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Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Thanks Dechs! I guess I just wasn't putting 2 and 2 together. Your answer makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
Is it fair to say that Brutes are meatshields? Along with Masterminds, they provide some basic aggro absorbsion for the team. Stalkers and Doms can provide some lockdown which will also mitigate team damage (Stalkers do it through the Fear effect in Assassin Strike).
So a Brute should expect to be able to tank part of a large spawn, but should also expect to have help.
-Brute's have AoE Taunt.
-Brute's have Punchvoke.
-Brutes have Aggro-Auras.
-Brutes have the second highest hitpoints in the game.
To me a brute is clearly meant to be the tank on the villain side. While I tolerate it, I would have to lie if I had to say I dont find this "I dont need to tank cause I'am a brute" mindset many people have a bit anoying. If not the brute who else is going to do the job?
Just because brutes are a bit more offensive then tankers dosnt mean they are not tanks anymore. When I play my two brutes I always run in first to take the alpha and I always take the time to taunt away the enemies from my teammates if they are in trouble.
Of course that dosnt mean you are supposed to just be the punching bag and do nothing but spaming taunt whenever its ready... thats not even what a tanker should do, because thanks to punchvoke dealing damage draws a lot of aggro too. But the common brute I see on "Zukunft" which dosnt care for the squishys on his team, cant take an alpha and dies in seconds once he gets some beating because he pumped all his slots and power picks into attacks is hardly more then a leecher or a liability IMHO.
If you dont want aggro, a stalker, corruptor or blaster or something like that would be a much better choice, cause even a scrapper should be able to take on at least those three enemies the maintank cant because of aggro cap.
I'am sorry if I sound a bit harsh, I would never flame, kick or lecture some player just because he dosnt play the way I want him too... but in regards to your question I thought being honest with my opinion would be more helpful then some "its fine do whatever you want".
All this is in regards to at least a +2x8 difficulty setting though... at +0x1 hardly anything matters and you are free to do whatever you want and nobody has the right to complain.
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Your mistake is assuming that it's a job that needs to be done.|
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
While I tolerate it, I would have to lie if I had to say I dont find this "I dont need to tank cause I'am a brute" mindset many people have a bit anoying. If not the brute who else is going to do the job?
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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
But the common brute I see on "Zukunft" which dosnt care for the squishys on his team, cant take an alpha and dies in seconds once he gets some beating because he pumped all his slots and power picks into attacks is hardly more then a leecher or a liability IMHO.
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Please understand that I'm not an advocate of the "all offense" brute. You seem to be saying that playing a brute like a scrapper is wrong, and I agree. I also say that playing a brute like a tank is wrong. You should play a brute like a brute, which means you like having aggro and are tough enough to survive it. Your job, however, is not to "tank"; that is to say, you don't keep the team safe. All of the redside ATs are designed to be able to handle themselves. This is why I say no one needs to tank.
Many bluesiders that go villain will learn this lesson in a very painful manner. "Your aggro, your problem."
Brute "Pokevoke" doesn't taunt five targets like a tanker does; it only hits one.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I'm in full agreement with Dechs on this.
Here's my take on it.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Brutes are Brutes. They are the fast moving, armored spear-tip of the team.
Capable of maintaining and surviving aggro in varying degrees while simultaneously dishing out excellent damage. Brute builds, particularly as it pertains to their secondary, dictate where on the scale of survivability vs. damage output each particular brute falls. |
In addition, as a Brute you can expect fluctuating performance with a high risk/high reward playstyle.
It really annooys me how many people attempt to look at the redside as if it is supposed to be played in the same was as blueside was played back when there were no aggro caps and dumpster diving was the way of the game.
EVERY archetype on redside is a damage dealer. They don't need anyone to tank for anything. Even my squishiest dominator hangs out in melee beating the snot out of everything she sees.
Be well, people of CoH.
As a Brute, my responsibility isn't to keep the squishies from getting aggro. The only "tanking," if you wanna call it that, I do on my Brute is taking the alpha. Although, I do that on all my "squishies" anyways.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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This actually sums it up pretty well for me. If I'm playing a redside AT and I actually need you to take agro for me, I'm doing something wrong. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
It really annooys me how many people attempt to look at the redside as if it is supposed to be played in the same was as blueside was played back when there were no aggro caps and dumpster diving was the way of the game.
EVERY archetype on redside is a damage dealer. They don't need anyone to tank for anything. Even my squishiest dominator hangs out in melee beating the snot out of everything she sees. |
The downside of being a brute is they do not stack well. If there is more than 1 brute on a team you will both (or all) be struggling for agro so you can maintain fury.
That said, if you're playing a brute, I'm not going to expect you to tank, but I am going to expect you to try and hold as much agro as you can handle. As a brute, that serves a couple purposes A) it clumps things up to AoE to death, and B) it enables YOU to deal more damage, thus speeding our progress through the mission.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That said, if you're playing a brute, I'm not going to expect you to tank, but I am going to expect you to try and hold as much agro as you can handle. As a brute, that serves a couple purposes A) it clumps things up to AoE to death, and B) it enables YOU to deal more damage, thus speeding our progress through the mission.
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This. Which is what I was trying to say when I called Brutes "meatshields." Brutes aren't tankers and shouldn't be expected to tank an entire 8 man spawn (though I think a few builds can).
Brutes should be expected to hold their own in the middle of a big fight, and hold aggro on at least some part of the spawn, for their own fury and so the rest of the team has less enemies to deal with. Saving squishies is OK, but you can't save a squishy from the whole spawn, squishies have to manage their own aggro too.
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Then why team up when everybody just plays for themselves? During leveling only very few squishys are able to manage a situation where ~80% of a full eight man spawn is comming at them because the brute dosnt care about aggro and prefers to do some "dueling" with a random Lt. If I want to kite enemies in circles across half the map because nobody is holding aggro I dont need a team... I just need to log on my lvl30 Blaster and set the difficulty to x8 -.-|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
It really annooys me how many people attempt to look at the redside as if it is supposed to be played in the same was as blueside was played back when there were no aggro caps and dumpster diving was the way of the game.
EVERY archetype on redside is a damage dealer. They don't need anyone to tank for anything. Even my squishiest dominator hangs out in melee beating the snot out of everything she sees. |
Honestly there is absolutely no difference between a well played tanker and a well played brute. Both should be the first ones to charge in and take the alpha, both should have no trouble holding most of the aggro simply through auras and damage dealing and both should use their taunt from time to time to save someone else *** if he is in trouble (its called TEAM PLAY... not "8 solo players in one mission" I would consider something like that common sense). The only difference between the two AT's is the brute will deal more damage but will need a heal thrown at him from time to time on the contrary to the tanker.
On a team there is something called "team play" and every AT should do his best to use his abilities in a way which makes this team play more enjoyable for everybody. Only because some AT's like brutes or corruptors are hybrids and can also deal some damage that dosnt mean they are relieved from their secondary role, no, it means they should do their best to fulfil both the roles they can cover.
Just imagine a corruptor coming into your team which dosnt heal or buff or whatever else his secondary set offers... and then he tells you "no sorry thats not my job, I'am not a defender"... or a dominator who dosnt CC because he's no controller. Everybody would tap one's forehead at someone like that, so why should the brute be treated differently?
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Bingo. Anything short of a PToD EB or AV that gets in the face of one of my Doms will soon regret it, no tank required. It has never ceased to amaze me how many people still after all these years try to pigeonhole the redside AT's into the blueside roles. They aren't the same AT's, they don't play the same way.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This actually sums it up pretty well for me. If I'm playing a redside AT and I actually need you to take agro for me, I'm doing something wrong.
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My perma dom can solo almost everything on +2x8 but thats not the point... an (lets say lvl30 on standart IO's) dominator will be screwed when multiple purple bosses and orange minions come for him and his domination and AoE CC isnt rdy (and he cant have this ready for every spawn except maybe plants). When those enemies use cc themselves it becomes even worse.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Bingo. Anything short of a PToD EB or AV that gets in the face of one of my Doms will soon regret it, no tank required. It has never ceased to amaze me how many people still after all these years try to pigeonhole the redside AT's into the blueside roles. They aren't the same AT's, they don't play the same way.
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For a brute with a little bit backup in form of buffs or heals or even in form of cc taking those enemies on shouldnt be a problem... I know what I'am talking about since I was tanking AND damage dealing even with my energy aura brute from lvl1 to 50.
So... if an AT is capable of this what reason is there to let this potential go to waste?
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There's a huge difference between a 80% eight man team and his normal share of aggro. Saying that the brute either hold 100% aggro or 20%, is like saying that if your squishy can't survive 100% aggro, then he can only survive one lts.|
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Then why team up when everybody just plays for themselves? During leveling only very few squishys are able to manage a situation where ~80% of a full eight man spawn is comming at them because the brute dosnt care about aggro and prefers to do some "dueling" with a random Lt. If I want to kite enemies in circles across half the map because nobody is holding aggro I dont need a team... I just need to log on my lvl30 Blaster and set the difficulty to x8 -.-
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| So... if an AT is capable of this what reason is there to let this potential go to waste? |
Everyone is supposed to be able to solo by himself. So each player should be able to handle 1/X of the enemies. (X being the number of player.) Sure the brute can pick a double or tripple share. That still leave 5/8 for the 7 other teamates, wich is more then enough to deal with that aggro.
And if your team is fighting multiple purple bosses at lvl 30 and can't get by...maybe that's cause the difficulty is too high? Blaming the brute is as stupid as trying to start a RWZ raid with just lvl 5s, and blame the "support" characters cause they dont keep the team alive.
edit: Forgot, you asked why team if everyone can solo. Maybe cause i want to play with friends and have someone to chat to while fighting? Maybe cause there is a few things where you absolutly need more then one person to start and finish? Skiing or snowboard is a "solo" sport, yet a lot of people go with some friends. The share the pleasure together. Just because i dont care for babysitting teamplay doesn't mean i hate being in team.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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I understand what you're saying, but your initial post made it come off like Brutes were in your opinion always required to be the tank. I disagree with that sentiment. If that's not what you meant, no problem. |
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
My perma dom can solo almost everything on +2x8 but thats not the point... an (lets say lvl30 on standart IO's) dominator will be screwed when multiple purple bosses and orange minions come for him and his domination and AoE CC isnt rdy (and he cant have this ready for every spawn except maybe plants). When those enemies use cc themselves it becomes even worse.
For a brute with a little bit backup in form of buffs or heals or even in form of cc taking those enemies on shouldnt be a problem... I know what I'am talking about since I was tanking AND damage dealing even with my energy aura brute from lvl1 to 50. So... if an AT is capable of this what reason is there to let this potential go to waste? |
As for your scenario of a Dom with multiple bosses, etc coming after him: that Dom messed up. Sounds like he opened with an AoE attack instead of an AoE control. Honestly if I were on my Dom and that happened to me, I'd shrug it off as my own fault. I would not expect the Brute to come rushing to my rescue.
In my first post I mentioned all I said was in regards to at least +2x8 setting and that it dosnt matter on lower difficultys.
I'am well aware "tanking" with squishys is possible, I have a few of those myself and they are great fun. But this involves certain powersets and enhancement sets... not every powerset is capable of that and even less of them are capable to do this on the lower levels.
Regarding the difficulty being to high: In our SG most of the players set their difficulty to +2x8 from lvl22 on at the latest, just because it is to easy otherwise. Of course its stupid to blame only the brute if a low level group wipes on such a difficulty, obviously everybody in the team has to contribute their abilities to make it work nicely. But if everybody plays in a good, beneficial way and only the brute thinks he has to behave like some kind of pseudo blapper THEN of course he is to blame ;p
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Problem with this is enemies have ranged attacks... or they are missed... or they arent effected instantly because they are bosses etc.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
As for your scenario of a Dom with multiple bosses, etc coming after him: that Dom messed up. Sounds like he opened with an AoE attack instead of an AoE control.
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I had this more often then enough: I throw an AoE immobilze into the enemies and a few seconds later I'am dead because the brute isnt using taunt, aura or even aoe because he prefers to punch something with his single target attacks cause he "isnt a tanker".
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That's more an issue of bad brutes in general though. |
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Problem with this is enemies have ranged attacks... or they are missed... or they arent effected instantly because they are bosses etc.
I had this more often then enough: I throw an AoE immobilze into the enemies and a few seconds later I'am dead because the brute isnt using taunt, aura or even aoe because he prefers to punch something with his single target attacks cause he "isnt a tanker". |
When I'm on a brute, I want my damage/taunt aura going, and I may even hit Taunt upon occassion. But I don't generally have the same mindset while Bruting as I do on my Tanker. On my Tanker I'm a walking CC, on my Brute I'm an engine of destruction.
using inspirations is hard
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Why team? Because leveling is vastly faster while teamed. This is no way refutes my statement that all redside ATs are damage dealers and that any team that *needs* aggro control is a team full of imbeciles. As I've said before, this game is NOT rocket surgery and this game in no way requires the age old and lame tank/healer/mage idiocy so prevalent on other MMOs.|
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Then why team up when everybody just plays for themselves? During leveling only very few squishys are able to manage a situation where ~80% of a full eight man spawn is comming at them because the brute dosnt care about aggro and prefers to do some "dueling" with a random Lt. If I want to kite enemies in circles across half the map because nobody is holding aggro I dont need a team... I just need to log on my lvl30 Blaster and set the difficulty to x8 -.-
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| Honestly there is absolutely no difference between a well played tanker and a well played brute. Both should be the first ones to charge in and take the alpha, both should have no trouble holding most of the aggro simply through auras and damage dealing and both should use their taunt from time to time to save someone else *** if he is in trouble (its called TEAM PLAY... not "8 solo players in one mission" I would consider something like that common sense). The only difference between the two AT's is the brute will deal more damage but will need a heal thrown at him from time to time on the contrary to the tanker. |
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| On a team there is something called "team play" and every AT should do his best to use his abilities in a way which makes this team play more enjoyable for everybody. Only because some AT's like brutes or corruptors are hybrids and can also deal some damage that dosnt mean they are relieved from their secondary role, no, it means they should do their best to fulfil both the roles they can cover. |
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| Just imagine a corruptor coming into your team which dosnt heal or buff or whatever else his secondary set offers... and then he tells you "no sorry thats not my job, I'am not a defender"... or a dominator who dosnt CC because he's no controller. Everybody would tap one's forehead at someone like that, so why should the brute be treated differently? |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Oh, so you don't know how to play your dom. Got it.
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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Problem with this is enemies have ranged attacks... or they are missed... or they arent effected instantly because they are bosses etc.
I had this more often then enough: I throw an AoE immobilze into the enemies and a few seconds later I'am dead because the brute isnt using taunt, aura or even aoe because he prefers to punch something with his single target attacks cause he "isnt a tanker". |
Be well, people of CoH.
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I like you. Please tell me you have characters on Liberty. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Any corruptor on any team I make that isn't blasting As Much as he's using his secondary gets kicked. Any dom that isn't blasting/punching as much as he's laying down the controls gets kicked. I will not tolerate a bunch of pansies on any team I create pretending that this game is WoW.
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Except there is clearly a difference. If nothing else, read through the stats on Red Tomax. Numbers don't lie.|
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Honestly there is absolutely no difference between a well played tanker and a well played brute. Both should be the first ones to charge in and take the alpha, both should have no trouble holding most of the aggro
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And some of us play /Electric Armor brutes, which isn't known for being tough, or similar sets. I run a pretty darn tough /ELA brute but support has to work really hard to keep me alive if I'm taunting 8 man spawns. I know because I've done it. It just isn't feasible most of the time without more support than most teams have. I know because I've failed at it too. My tray of Insp isn't infinite.
There's lots of things to do besides rush the Brute in first. Maybe the Corruptor wants to use Fearsome Stare. Maybe the Fortunata should be using Psychic Wail or Aura of Confusion to soften up the alpha. Maybe sleep a bunch and then apply some debufs. There's lots of strategies besides "rush the brute in" and sometimes they're even necessary.
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| On a team there is something called "team play" and every AT should do his best to use his abilities in a way which makes this team play more enjoyable for everybody. |
Team play is fine but you have to use your head. "Always rush the brute in" isn't using your head, it's following a preset mindset, an ideology, and it's not always going to work and it'll slow down every one's fun as a result.
And you don't always have a perfectly built brute an every level to work with. I'm not talking about level 50, perma-doms and purpled-out brutes. Most of the game happens in CoH before level 50. Sometimes you don't even have IOs yet. Some times you have players who are new and don't know the ropes yet. I've found that there's a large number of (very!) young kids playing this game. They aren't always the best players. You have to adjust your own play style and expectations to what the team has to offer.
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| Just imagine a corruptor coming into your team which dosnt heal or buff or whatever else his secondary set offers... and then he tells you "no sorry thats not my job, I'am not a defender" |
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While they may not stack well, they sure do split well. Brute 1 and squishies take care of first mob while brute 2 runs to the next mob. Squishies catch up to finish off what is left and brute 1 runs ahead to grab the next mob and so on.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This actually sums it up pretty well for me. If I'm playing a redside AT and I actually need you to take agro for me, I'm doing something wrong.
The downside of being a brute is they do not stack well. If there is more than 1 brute on a team you will both (or all) be struggling for agro so you can maintain fury. That said, if you're playing a brute, I'm not going to expect you to tank, but I am going to expect you to try and hold as much agro as you can handle. As a brute, that serves a couple purposes A) it clumps things up to AoE to death, and B) it enables YOU to deal more damage, thus speeding our progress through the mission. |
Last time I was online, I was in this really good group and I had to go AFK for a moment... well, 722 days later, I'm back. I hope they weren't too mad. ;p
...but seriously, I just re-activated yesterday. I've been trying to read for most of my questions but I have a basic question that oddly enough I can't find the answer to. (I probably suck at searching.)
As a Brute will I be expected to tank? I've been reading the threads that say their damage can be comparable or better than scrappers. So, will it be easy to get in a group as damage, instead of tank?