Wish I could help but I just can't play tanks. But good luck on your endeavor.
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
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I'm actually hoping to pull some of the old ones around out of retirement for this one. Its the only TF/Trial/Raid that we haven't done with an all-Tanker team and I want the hat trick.|
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
Wish I could help but I just can't play tanks. But good luck on your endeavor.
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"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Any of the tanks out there that have volunteered for the Hamidon aggro job:
Have any of you tracked your regen rate after being hit with all those AB's? Is it usually capped? Anyone got some average numbers they could share with me? Would be appreciated
-M
Marut, 50 FF/Rad/Power Defender - Champion
Leader of The Earthguard
Leader of The Galactic Empire
ive had no issues taunting hami (that is, when i remember the right toggles and dont get myself knockbacked all the way up a hill and have to be tp'd out... i mean, not that thats ever happend 
)
this past sunday with the constant buffs i managed to stay in all rounds and i only popped a few eoe's.. the last 2 rounds i used none..
as far as the exact #s that i cant tell you.. i wanna say the regeneration rate was (300+ hp/sec) 326? 329? 3 sixty something?.. blah..
that tanker is a wp/dm
Cherry, when you Tank Hamidon with that WP/DM, do you get close to it and spam Siphon Life? If so, what's your recharge on it?
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Im all up on hami.. infact, he's asked me to not get so close unless i intend on buying him dinner.
I only spam it (along with other attacks) when others are trying to steal aggro and be douchy raid griefers.. it's back super fast... the exact time.. hmm I'll let you know later today.. (im thinking someone else tho that may read this can tell you for sure before i log in and check myself {coughfangcough})
So there's no way I'm playing a tank 
with that said:
If you allow the use of temp powers, this won't be too difficult. Just get everyone to get a bio nuke, and make sure as many as possible take a hold and a ranged attack (the ones in the ancillary pool for instance). Then you can essentially run the raid with the normal strategy, and just warn people that no one except the hami taunter should have their taunt aura on.
If you don't want to allow temp powers, it becomes very difficult, but still possible I think (Amy and I had a discussion about this). You'll need to be able to rotate the hami taunter, so someone on the hami taunt team should have recall friend, and then either the tanks on there should have self-rez powers or someone should take rez from the medicine pool. If need be you could have a couple tanks taunting greens to make hami taunt's job easier. You'll still need lots of tanks to have holds/ranged attacks as before. You'll also need to choose your yellow tanks carefully, since they will have no external buffs.
Just a note on something people get confused about:
Self and targeted heals are greatly diminished by the debuffs from the various parts of hami (with enough debuff they basically do nothing). There are two exceptions: any heal that has a resistance portion, and dark regeneration. This means sets like fire armor and dark armor can still heal even when under all the debuffs.
Which oddly makes Stone armor potentially valuable for this purpose if you have someone willing to alternate build for it. Earth's Embrace provides resist to toxic, and should therefore still work, as well as jacking max hp, which raises regeneration rate by neccessity. Rooted provides a fairly decent regen boost on it's own as well. I would like to see just how high one's regen bonus can get with Rooted slotted to the gills and a lot of recharge for EE. I'm sure it's not high enough, but might make a solid difference in how many people are needed for the job.
Marut, 50 FF/Rad/Power Defender - Champion
Leader of The Earthguard
Leader of The Galactic Empire
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When I was taunting Hami on my stoner, I believe that three ABs, in additional to rooted, was capping my regen. I'm also pretty sure that in lieu of ABs one bio nuke (plus rooted) caps my regen as well.|
Originally Posted by Marut
Any of the tanks out there that have volunteered for the Hamidon aggro job:
Have any of you tracked your regen rate after being hit with all those AB's? Is it usually capped? Anyone got some average numbers they could share with me? Would be appreciated -M |
I sent this PM to Myrm, but here was my list of concerns/items to overcome for an all-Tanker Hami raid:
Off the top of my head, here are a couple of things, that I'm sure you've thought of, that would be obstacles:
1 - actually filling the zone with tanks, since there isn't a way to restrict other ATs from entering the zone
2 - the lack of +regen powers (specifically from emps), since this is how we've been using a solo tank to taunt hami (and the auras certainly help the other taunting tanks too)
3 - the lack of holds -- this might be the big stumbling block, because you would have to go through the build of just about every tank the entered the zone to see if they had a hold and then put them on the hold team
4 - lack of ranged damage -- to take down the blues. you'd have to treat this the same as the holds issue, i think. Or, you would have to ask people to make pretty specific hami builds and essentially take pyre mastery for char (hold) fire blast and fire ball (or switch to the brute patron powers along the same line of thinking)
5 - what to do with granite tanks? -- for example, my stoner is my only tank. i know with multiple emps help i can solo-taunt hami with no issues, but when i'm on yellow taunt i can't assist with the green or blue mito take-down because i can't get off the ground. Seismic Smash is at least a hold, but will i survive if i drop granite/rooted, and since I didn't use any epic pool powers, I don't have a ranged attack.
-Llew.
@Llewthor, @Llewthor2
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Dual builds can solve 3, 4, and 5. Just use your second build to pick up some ancillary pool powers (this assumes people are willing to plan for this). 2 can be solved either with bio nukes or by rotating tanks. I don't have an answer for 1.
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Originally Posted by Llewthor
When I was taunting Hami on my stoner, I believe that three ABs, in additional to rooted, was capping my regen. I'm also pretty sure that in lieu of ABs one bio nuke (plus rooted) caps my regen as well.
I sent this PM to Myrm, but here was my list of concerns/items to overcome for an all-Tanker Hami raid: Off the top of my head, here are a couple of things, that I'm sure you've thought of, that would be obstacles: 1 - actually filling the zone with tanks, since there isn't a way to restrict other ATs from entering the zone 2 - the lack of +regen powers (specifically from emps), since this is how we've been using a solo tank to taunt hami (and the auras certainly help the other taunting tanks too) 3 - the lack of holds -- this might be the big stumbling block, because you would have to go through the build of just about every tank the entered the zone to see if they had a hold and then put them on the hold team 4 - lack of ranged damage -- to take down the blues. you'd have to treat this the same as the holds issue, i think. Or, you would have to ask people to make pretty specific hami builds and essentially take pyre mastery for char (hold) fire blast and fire ball (or switch to the brute patron powers along the same line of thinking) 5 - what to do with granite tanks? -- for example, my stoner is my only tank. i know with multiple emps help i can solo-taunt hami with no issues, but when i'm on yellow taunt i can't assist with the green or blue mito take-down because i can't get off the ground. Seismic Smash is at least a hold, but will i survive if i drop granite/rooted, and since I didn't use any epic pool powers, I don't have a ranged attack. -Llew. |
figure out how many you need to accomplish the task at hand, PM the people that expressed interest with the date, go on hide, voila?
I recall this working for some other experiment
Problem with just looking at the regen rate as "capped" is that that number is a percentage of an individual tanks hp. Unless we assumed that any given tank is at permacapped hp, the numbers can actually vary by a decent amount - that's why I wanted to check on the actual hp/sec rate, because that's a target that can be aimed for regardless of hp total.
Marut, 50 FF/Rad/Power Defender - Champion
Leader of The Earthguard
Leader of The Galactic Empire
Quote:
This worked for a LOT of other experiments |
Originally Posted by _Cherry_
figure out how many you need to accomplish the task at hand, PM the people that expressed interest with the date, go on hide, voila?
I recall this working for some other experiment |
Should work fine again if neccessary, though it never hurts to give people a shot at being polite... the first time anyway
Marut, 50 FF/Rad/Power Defender - Champion
Leader of The Earthguard
Leader of The Galactic Empire
I have 1 lvl 50 tank (stone/Axe) . but all of the Raid stuff I done in the past is all scrapper (Blue) or Hold team (red side).
I would be willing to rebuild the 2nd build to handle the Yellow spike job.
I would say I would get my WP tank up there, but time is not there.
Lead Squirrel at Dr. E Spider robotic site #643
Nothing saids its your spot like an ourob. Portal dropped on the ground.
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Originally Posted by Marut
This worked for a LOT of other experiments
Should work fine again if neccessary, though it never hurts to give people a shot at being polite... the first time anyway |
IMO 90 % of our server would be poilite and actually support this idea..
its the 10 % though that would most certainly go out of their way to do everything to make this nearly impossible... which sucks.
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On my stoner brute, my "normal" regen rate (with no toggles) is 24.18 hp/sec.|
Originally Posted by Marut
Problem with just looking at the regen rate as "capped" is that that number is a percentage of an individual tanks hp. Unless we assumed that any given tank is at permacapped hp, the numbers can actually vary by a decent amount - that's why I wanted to check on the actual hp/sec rate, because that's a target that can be aimed for regardless of hp total.
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When I turn on granite, rooted and hit Earth's Embrace (which is standard for me when taunting) my hit points cap (3212.69) and my regen rate goes to 59.50 hp/sec. One AB increases my regen to 187.86 hp/sec.
With three emps giving my tank AB, my regen rate caps at 334.66 hp/sec.
-Llew.
@Llewthor, @Llewthor2
ah ok.. my hp is at 3132 w/o ab's my regen is 64.57 hp/sec..
with 3 abs it puts me at cap.
we need to get a bio nuke (or two) and test out how close that puts us to the regen cap as our next test.
@Llewthor, @Llewthor2
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It's been a little while since I've tanked him myself, but I'll try my best to answer your questions. |
Originally Posted by Marut
Any of the tanks out there that have volunteered for the Hamidon aggro job:
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marut
Have any of you tracked your regen rate after being hit with all those AB's? Is it usually capped?
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The reason I'm mentioning this is because the 'All Tanker' strat itself hasn't been decided on yet (to my knowledge at least), so the question of how much regen can't really be answered. There are many ways to set up a Hami taunt team. For example, before we had a solo Hami taunter, we had a rotating taunt team with (ideally) 4 Emps and 4 Tanks. Each Emp had a Tank partner and was responsible for buffing the Tank with an AB before they went in. The first Tank would always last the longest being backed by all those ABs and RAs from the initial calls for buffs. After those buffs wore off, some Tanks with a single AB would last just about as long as their EoE (60 seconds), while others might last longer. It really depended on 2 things: the Tanker's build and the stage of the raid (i.e. how many greens were still up and debuffing the Tank).
Because we are looking at a specialty raid, there are likley going to be variations in the strat used at a regular raid. For this reason, instead of looking at the issue of regen buffs from the top down (i.e. figure out how much regen is used at a regular raid and match it in bio nukes) I think we should look at it from the bottom up (i.e. how can we best mitigate the -regen debuffs in the jello with the strategy alone so that we get the most out of our bio nukes).
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marut
Anyone got some average numbers they could share with me?
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The source of -regen comes from 2 things: Hamidon itself and the 6 green mitos. From Red Tomax, the Endocronic Blast from green mitos has a regen debuff of 3 (300%) that lasts for 15 seconds. It presumably stacks (although the -heal portion does not) and it takes 6 seconds to activate. This being said, it could stack approximately 2 -regen debuffs on a target. Hamidon has 2 attacks with -regen with the same debuff values. Both Electrolytic Blast and Electrolytic Beam debuff regen by 0.5 (50%). Although less of a debuff, the effects of both blasts last 70 seconds (which is significantly longer than the green mito debuff), recharge in 3.5 seconds and so theoretically could stack 20 times.
Now this much debuff together, for lack of a better term, sucks for a solo Hami taunter that takes just about all of it upon entry into the jello. It's normally not an issue because of the Emps in zone, which is a testament to Emp buffs. However, like Kahlan was getting at in his post, if you had Tankers to mitigate the green mito debuffs, say one Tank per green, that cancels out a significant portion of debuff. The greens themselves don't do that much damage and are not a threat aside from their capacity to debuff. If you can successfully mitigate them, then you only have to worry about Hami and his debuffs.
My apologies for such a long post and I'm not sure where you are at in the strat planning of all of this, but ultimately just thought it worth sharing some of the information so that we can get the most out of what we have. If anything, I think these are the most important points I'm trying to convey:
1. Regen buffs used on the solo Hami Taunter at regular raids aren't geared towards maintaining the minimum needed for survival, but rather using all regen buffs available whether needed or not. Because of this, be wary of any conclusions made based on these raids.
2. Regen buffs at a normal raid come from Emps with variable slotting and recharge providing a minimum of 500% regen (max over 1000%), while a bio nuke is a fixed buff at 400% regen. The regen cap for Tankers is 2500%.
3. All together, Hamidon and the green mitos generate a substantial amount of -regen debuff, but individually, may be more manageable.
When Myrmydon first told me about this idea, my reaction was pretty much the same as Kahlan's "Oh just get a bunch of bio nukes to make up for the lack of Emps". But then I got to thinking, if we do that, then why don't we just do a nuke raid? I'm pretty sure those involved in the planning want to do this on the Tanker ATs merit as much as possible, which is why perhaps we should consider if there is a way to do it without nukes. While I might be crazy for suggesting that, I think considering some ideas geared towards a buff-less raid might help us develop a more economical use of bio nukes should we use them.
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
I think in order for this to go smoothly, something has to be done with the green mitos since they're the main source of the regen debuffs. When I've taunted Hami on my Brute, there are times my regen got debuffed to nothing, despite having 4 or 5 Painbringers on me. Once the greens are taken care of, it's not too difficult to stand up to Hami itself.
Having a few Tanks taunt the greens would help alleviate most of the pain in doing this I think. I'd suggest something with a heal like Fire or Dark Tanks to do this job.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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You can assume that the Tanks that have solo taunted Hami at previous raids have been Tanks with perma capped HP. Only instance I can think of where this wasn't the case was when Cherry used her level 49 Tank at a raid recently, but it still had well over 3000 HP IIRC.|
Originally Posted by Marut
Problem with just looking at the regen rate as "capped" is that that number is a percentage of an individual tanks hp. Unless we assumed that any given tank is at permacapped hp, the numbers can actually vary by a decent amount - that's why I wanted to check on the actual hp/sec rate, because that's a target that can be aimed for regardless of hp total.
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We've been using 1 Tank on Hami for quite a while so the people responding will be referencing that method. When we used the rotating Tank team, many did not have capped HP.
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
Quote:
I'll be asking people directly and in channels to refrain from the usual hijinx and, hopefully, we'll be able to attempt this without any trouble. Otherwise, we go with Cherry's suggestion.
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Originally Posted by Kahlan_
Dual builds can solve 3, 4, and 5. Just use your second build to pick up some ancillary pool powers (this assumes people are willing to plan for this). 2 can be solved either with bio nukes or by rotating tanks. I don't have an answer for 1.
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"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Im all in for all Tank Hami!
Global@SteelDominator
I haven't played my lvl 49 Stone Tank in ... mmmm ... 4 years? Permananently mothballed at level 49.2, but hey if I can help, more than happy to. Have no problem respec'ing into an Earth's Embrace / Rooted build with high recharge, but I don't have a ton of influence - I can liquidate a few hundred million in short order, but if this is going to hit post-GR / market merger, I can transfer a few billion from villain side as needed, just let me know.
P.S. Stop being civil, its less fun 
I have been kicking this idea around for sometime and I believe Im ready to get the ball rolling on it. I want to attempt an all tanker Hamidon raid to see if it can be done. Any ideas or advice (positive or negative) is welcome and I would like to involve as many people as possible in it. Would anyone with intimate knowledge of the either the Tanker AT or Hamidon raid organization please post in this thread, so that we can get a comprehensive analysis of the idea to formulate a strategy that might work. Ive begun by involving both Marut and Amygdala in the planning stages and, after some serious discussion in this thread with everyone interested, well attempt to make the raid happen. So far, I have the basic strategy for both the normal raid and the 16-player raid and will work on this from that.
P.S. For anyone that currently has me on ignore in the game, but is interested in this concept, I ask that you take me off of it in game for the time being (at least from now until we pull the raid off) so that we can discuss the particulars whenever we need to. I promise that Ill be civil for the time being. J
Thanks for your time.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight